Question re: attending SR matches in Mass

[XTR]

Pls pardon my ignorance, and I'm sure that this has been asked in the past. I've recently moved to the region from TN. (Don't ask. There is a woman involved. There is no other force on earth that could have caused this)

Can I attend a match in Mass with a scary black rifle and magazines that surely violate at least some of the statutes of the Commonwealth, with out running afoul of the law there; or should I limit my comps to NH/VT?

 

[szaino]

Moving to "the region" doesn't help. Need to know exactly what state you are a resident of before we can then move on to the next question, which is are you licensed in that state. And then did you already bring your firearms into said state.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Pls pardon my ignorance, and I'm sure that this has been asked in the past. I've recently moved to the region from TN. (Don't ask. There is a woman involved. There is no other force on earth that could have caused this)

Can I attend a match in Mass with a scary black rifle and magazines that surely violate at least some of the statutes of the Commonwealth, with out running afoul of the law there; or should I limit my comps to NH/VT?

If you are now living in MA, you can't touch any guns that you brought with you (lock them up) until you get a LTC. MGL gives you 60 days grace period to get licensed. You need to take a MSP approved course before applying for the LTC.

If you live in another state, you can't bring any guns (other than non-large capacity long guns) into MA for any reason without a MA NR LTC (that takes ~6 months to get).

In all cases, if you have a gun that meets the MA definition of an "assault weapon" or new large-capacity mags (mfd after 9/13/1994) under MGL, it is a felony to possess them anywhere in the state.

Then we have the MA AG's re-write of MGL claiming that any AR/AK variant is a felony to possess in MA unless it was mfd on/before 9//13/1994 (or is a .22LR variant).

Tons of info on these issues can be found in the MA Gun Laws sub-forum and nothing has really been clarified since I posted this:
https://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/314031-AG-s-New-AWB-7-20-2016

 

[PatMcD]

Good luck on matches in VT. The only ones I know of are up at Ethan Allen near Burlington.

 

[XTR]

I'm living in Lebanon, NH it's not that far to VT.

I'm already planning to travel to Colonie and Ottawa to shoot long range F class. There don't seem to be many 1000 yard competitions up here.

I lived 20 minutes or less from Oak Ridge for the last 2+ decades. I'm spoiled.

I had a feeling that traveling into MA was a non-starter. I feel like I woke up in a different country.

 

[szaino]

If you are now living in MA, you can't touch any guns that you brought with you (lock them up) until you get a LTC. MGL gives you 60 days grace period to get licensed. You need to take a MSP approved course before applying for the LTC.

If you live in another state, you can't bring any guns (other than non-large capacity long guns) into MA for any reason without a MA NR LTC (that takes ~6 months to get).

In all cases, if you have a gun that meets the MA definition of an "assault weapon" or new large-capacity mags (mfd after 9/13/1994) under MGL, it is a felony to possess them anywhere in the state.

Then we have the MA AG's re-write of MGL claiming that any AR/AK variant is a felony to possess in MA unless it was mfd on/before 9//13/1994 (or is a .22LR variant).

Tons of info on these issues can be found in the MA Gun Laws sub-forum and nothing has really been clarified since I posted this:
https://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/314031-AG-s-New-AWB-7-20-2016

Bolded above is incorrect. Non residents are allowed to bring firearms into Mass for competitions/hunting.

Section 131G: Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions

Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.

 

[daekken]

Bolded above is incorrect. Non residents are allowed to bring firearms into Mass for competitions/hunting.
.

The last I heard this was a bogus exemption, either because no licenses met the enumerated requirements, or for some other reasons. It also assumes OP has such a license. Len would probably have more or can explain it better.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The last I heard this was a bogus exemption, either because no licenses met the enumerated exemptions, or for some other reasons. It also assumes OP has such a license.

The reasons some consider it bogus is that the exemption requires a gun license from a state that "prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;" and no state has an all-encompassing drug user statutory ban. I would love to see someone prosecuted for the "license does not quality" as this constraint on the exemption would appear to be unconstitutional under Wesson v. Fowler. I expect Comm2a would help litigate, but that takes a vote of the Comm2a triumvirate so, as Apu said when Homer said "don't pleasure my wife" ..... I make no promises.

A greater risk is the competitors who fabricate an exemption out of whole cloth and claim that being from a state that does not require a license is the same as having one under the statute. No, it is not.

 

[daekken]

The reasons some consider it bogus is that the exemption requires a gun license from a state that "prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;" and no state has an all-encompassing drug user statutory ban. I would love to see someone prosecuted for the "license does not quality" as this constraint on the exemption would appear to be unconstitutional under Wesson v. Fowler. I expect Comm2a would help litigate, but that takes a vote of the Comm2a triumvirate so, as Apu said when Homer said "don't pleasure my wife" ..... I make no promises.

A greater risk is the competitors who fabricate an exemption out of whole cloth and claim that being from a state that does not require a license is the same as having one under the statute. No, it is not.

Yes, that was it; that some argue that no state's law go far enough to meet the requirement (specifically on drugs) and thus no one can truly qualify. Anyway, sounds like yet another gray area.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The last I heard this was a bogus exemption, either because no licenses met the enumerated requirements, or for some other reasons. It also assumes OP has such a license. Len would probably have more or can explain it better.

Yes, that was it; that some argue that no state's law go far enough to meet the requirement (specifically on drugs) and thus no one can truly qualify. Anyway, sounds like yet another gray area.

Yes but Rob hit the nail on the head.

It was FRB Director Jason Guida, Esq. who informed me of this "non" exemption and why. Sadly he was 100% correct as the law was intentionally (I'm sure) written to imply on thing and really mean "no dice". I've seen other laws written this way, giving false hope.

 

[PatMcD]

Boil it down for me.
I'm from Maine. Can I, or can I not legally participate in a match in MA using a AR?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Boil it down for me.
I'm from Maine. Can I, or can I not legally participate in a match in MA using a AR?

No, at least not legally!

 

[PatMcD]

No, at least not legally!

Next question: has it always been this way or only in the last couple of years with your AG'S BS?
We've always gone down there in the past with no issues.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Next question: has it always been this way or only in the last couple of years with your AG'S BS?
We've always gone down there in the past with no issues.

It's been illegal since at least 1998. Nothing to do with the AG, it's the way that the law was written. Its just that none of us (including myself and a number of well-respected firearms attorneys) picked up the nuance in the law until Jason Guida did some research to find that no state meets the requirements and we all failed English sentence structure class on this one.

Until someone gets caught and prosecuted, nobody will have any issues. Now that it is fairly well known in the LE circles, the odds may change.

I wanted to add:

- The above is generic wrt ALL handguns and any large capacity long gun/mag.

- Specifically there has never been any confusion that any visitor bringing a newer than 9/13/1994 magazine or so-called AW (AR-15 in particular) into MA for any reason whatsoever has been a felony since the law changed in 1998.

- It's just that most people fly under the radar and never get caught.

 

[VIzsladad]

Nashua, Pelham and Pemi NH, all have XTC matches and some others as well. I am sure once the combined schedule get finalized it will be posted up here so you can figure out the schedule. All 3 are roughly the same distance for you.

 

[VIzsladad]

It's just that most people fly under the radar and never get caught.

thats good because I have a few planned for Reading this year and I am looking forward to them.

 

[Admin]

If a cop is willing to hook you up for going to and from a high power match, we have bigger issues than what that stupid laws says.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Until someone gets caught and prosecuted, nobody will have any issues. Now that it is fairly well known in the LE circles, the odds may change.

I doubt someone will get prosecuted but the small chance is always there. Wesson v. Fowler gives an attack vector on the statute since the federal court has determined that denying 2A rights for a sub 1oz weed conviction is unconstitutional.

Specifically there has never been any confusion that any visitor bringing a newer than 9/13/1994 magazine or so-called AW (AR-15 in particular) into MA for any reason whatsoever has been a felony since the law changed in 1998.

True, but we now have confusion regarding pre 7/20/16 ARs that are brought into MA. There is no clear determination if the AG declaration renders those illegal (in her opinion). She declared all pre 7/20 EBRs felonious, but declared an amnesty - not specifying if the amnesty was limited to residents only.

 

[XTR]

What is an EBR? You guys use some jargon up here with which I am not familiar. (I'm sure it's because where I come from we don't have these conversations)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What is an EBR? You guys use some jargon up here with which I am not familiar. (I'm sure it's because where I come from we don't have these conversations)

EBR :== Evil Black Rifle, generally of the AR15 persuasion

 

[jasons]

So we have this thing called the 14th Amendment which includes the due process clause, and at least in theory laws that leave the average citizen (and Guida is not the average citizen) unable to determine what conduct is prohibited violate it. I doubt that the Commonwealth is dumb enough to go to trial and argue that an otherwise law-abiding citizen who relied on 131G should be convicted because 131G is legally meaningless due to some esoteric technicality.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So we have this thing called the 14th Amendment which includes the due process clause, and at least in theory laws that leave the average citizen (and Guida is not the average citizen) unable to determine what conduct is prohibited violate it. I doubt that the Commonwealth is dumb enough to go to trial and argue that an otherwise law-abiding citizen who relied on 131G should be convicted because 131G is legally meaningless due to some esoteric technicality.

A more likely bad scenario is an arrest by an officer who doesn't even know the exemption exists.

I doubt a prosecution would go forward based solely on "the state that issued the permit will do so for weed convicts, and even though you are not a weed convict the exemption does not apply". More likely the charges would get dismissed in return for agreeing not to try to get your guns back, or a token pound of flesh like court costs would be extracted to preserve the ADA's record.

 

[jasons]

A more likely bad scenario is an arrest by an officer who doesn't even know the exemption exists.

I doubt a prosecution would go forward based solely on "the state that issued the permit will do so for weed convicts, and even though you are not a weed convict the exemption does not apply". More likely the charges would get dismissed in return for agreeing not to try to get your guns back, or a token pound of flesh like court costs would be extracted to preserve the ADA's record.

Hopefully the poor bastard caught up in this unlikely hypothetical would respond to such a "deal" with an invitation for the ADA to indulge in some intimate self love.

 

[XTR]

Got it.

 

[wahsben]

When it comes to the laws in Ma. especially in regards to firearms the govt. likes to create lots of grey areas so that they may apply the law as they see fit rather than justly and fairly.

 

[MisterHappy]

A more likely bad scenario is an arrest by an officer who doesn't even know the exemption exists.

I doubt a prosecution would go forward based solely on "the state that issued the permit will do so for weed convicts, and even though you are not a weed convict the exemption does not apply". More likely the charges would get dismissed in return for agreeing not to try to get your guns back, or a token pound of flesh like court costs would be extracted to preserve the ADA's record.

I had to correct an EPO as to the large-cap magazine's non-relevance on a pump-action shotgun. Fortunately, it was at a Hunter Ed class, and not along a roadside or hunting area.

WE have to know the laws....as they might not.

 

[jasons]

I had to correct an EPO as to the large-cap magazine's non-relevance on a pump-action shotgun. Fortunately, it was at a Hunter Ed class, and not along a roadside or hunting area.

WE have to know the laws....as they might not.

Where in the law are large capacity magazines exempted if they happen to be attached to a pump action shotgun?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Where in the law are large capacity magazines exempted if they happen to be attached to a pump action shotgun?

They are not exempt, as you point out, unless mfd on/before 9/13/1994. I realize most people believe that the AWB rule about semi-auto falls over for mags, but it doesn't . . . and I get arguments about it all the time.

 

[MisterHappy]

The EPO was saying that a semi-auto or pump shotgun that had more than 5 rounds magazine capacity was a large capacity weapon.

I cited:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

and the relevant language: The term ''large capacity weapon'' shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action;

He was not differentiating between removable and fixed mags.

 

[browncoat]

I have nothing to add to this conversation other than to say I hope the woman involved is your ill mother.