chris_1001
NES Member
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Plus and/or negative to adding a pistol grip to a home defense shotgun?
- Thread starter Rockrivr1
- Start date
chris_1001
NES Member
Wtf????
“ Typically you would ensure chamber is empty, dry fire to unlock the action”
No!!! Load the gun and keep the safety on.
Wtf is this nonsense ^
Agreed. What he described is not cruiser ready. Shotguns are generally not drop safe. So cruiser ready means that the chamber is empty, the slide is unlocked, and the safety is off.
Cruiser-ready is how long guns are kept by police when they put them in the police cruiser. Long guns are generally not drop safe and police cruisers bounce around a lot, so the chambers are kept empty. When a shotgun or patrol rifle is placed in the police cruiser, the chambers are empty and the safeties are off. For pump shotguns, they have typically been dry-fired on an empty chamber so that the slide is unlocked. If the officer needs their long gun, they remove it from the rack, charge the chamber, and are ready to go. That is what cruiser-ready means and why it is used by police.
You can argue for or against using cruiser-ready for a home defense long gun, but not about the definition of cruiser-ready.
Personally, my home defense handgun is a Glock and it is kept fully loaded in a lock box (when not on my hip). When I kept a 1911 for home defense, I kept it condition one fully loaded, hammer cocked, and safety on. My home defense rifle is in a safe in the basement. I won’t be going for that unless I have a significant amount of warning and thus the time to get down into the basement and open the safe. My home defense rifle is kept cruiser-ready. I’m unlikely to have the warning to get to it. If I do have the time to get to it, I’ll have plenty of time to charge the chamber. YMMV.
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Bullshit.
Motor skills correctly developed through overlearning accomplish automaticity.
Do the work and train.
Agreed. The only reason someone would not be able to properly use any function of their weapon system under duress is lack of training. Full stop. That’s exactly what training is for, to be better than the average jamoke who can’t move and think at the same time.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
Tubes contain springs and followers, too. The shotgun contains an analog to the feed lips.
To remove the tube from the firearm, we must disassemble its magazine. If you take the baseplate off a box magazine, it won't retain ammo either.
That's all I was trying to say.
I think it's generally a good idea to have two home defense guns: a handgun and a long gun. If there's a bump in the night but then you don't hear anything else, grab a maneuverable handgun and go see what the cat broke this time. If you hear voices, footsteps, etc then grab the long gun and hunker down.
allen-1
NES Member
Correct, and there are posts by @Atlantis, @M1911 and @Andy in NH that are also correct.
My primary firearm is a pistol, because I'm reasonably competent with one. It's what I carry, it's what I keep staged in the house. If a pistol in the house is in a holster, it's loaded with a round chambered. If something goes "bump" in the night, I'm grabbing my G31 with dot and wml from the bureau where it lives at night.
I'm less competent with a rifle, reasonably competent at manipulating the controls, but compared to a pistol, much less practiced. I'm taking another rifle class tomorrow, because I know that I can use improvement. I don't foresee using a rifle as a home defense weapon, but I have rifles in the safe organized so that I can retrieve an AR with dot or scope without moving any other firearms. I've got multiple loaded magazines staged within a yard of the safe.
Of the three basic types of firearms - pistols, rifles and shotguns - I'm the least competent with my shotguns. I shoot skeet fairly regularly, with a 20GA over/under, I typically score between 15 and 18. Yeah - not going to win any prizes there. I've got a Mossberg 930 JM Pro that I used a couple times for three gun. Better than skeet, but not really good. I have to think about everything I'm doing with it.
And then there's that Mossberg, stored loaded, but with the action open, in my safe. I take it to the range a couple times a year, just to remind myself how it works. But the safety on it is very non-intuitive, it kinda reminds me of the ones on my 10/22's, only worse. I keep it stored the way I do so that if I need it at my home, as soon as I've got the safe open, I can make that shotgun ready to go without fumbling. I have half a dozen snapcap 12GA rounds, and a couple times a year, I work on the retrieval and prepping.
Bottom line there is that I'm not truly practiced enough with that shotgun.
There’s an app for that! Actually, there are a lot of apps for that!
I suppose in the context of this forum I'll agree that a competent well trained operator can (and should) train their specific configuration and tactics to the point that duress doesn't matter. Kind of absurd to expect every one in your vicinity to be at that same level. Bear in mind the context here is "why would you dry fire on the empty chamber". There's virtually no difference between "Pick this shotgun up, cycle the action fully, and fire" vs "Pick this shotgun up, slam action forward, and fire". There's a major difference between either of the former and "Pick up this shogun, either pull the trigger, or find and depress this little button, then cycle the action, then fire". Extend this concept past your own personal training and think about communicating to your loved ones what the manual of arms is. Think about the difference in training repetitions they are likely to have versus you. Do you want to set them up for success or failure?
Imo huge difference between talking about something like a duty rifle and something like a bedside shotgun.
In typical NES fashion you’re overthinking this. Nobody said anything about operators or tactics. We’re talking about being able to work the basic actions on your defensive weapons properly under duress.
If you can’t do this you need to train more. If you can do it with your defensive handgun but not with your defensive shotgun, then that right there is your answer and your example. These are very basic actions, no operating operator (hat tip to @AHM ) needed.
As for the bolded (mine), there is no difference between the two, I don’t know where you came up with that. You’re relegating personal responsibility and competency only to a particular job IE duty/work vs your duty to protect your home.
A bedside shotguns purpose is to save lives. As such the end user has a duty and responsibility to be able to do that competently, safely and aggressively, under any conditions, which is why there is no difference between the two.
I’m not telling you how to do anything, old dogs and all, just that I don’t agree and why.
Kinda missed the point but I see how it wasn't made clear. Read it like this:
The point was that my family is far more likely to be reaching for that shotgun than they are to be grabbing my kit and shouldering my rifle. I am extremely capable with my weapons. I don't realistically expect my girlfriend and family to have that exact same level of training. That's a whole separate discussion. The simple fact is, it's easier to manipulate a weapon that is stored in a true "cruiser ready" fashion. Easier to manipulate is a good thing. Sort of arguing semantics here. Yes, you could store your shotgun with the action locked up. It doesn't offer any advantages for the average user who is looking for a safe, reliable, easily accessible and fireable weapon. You can add steps to that process and train around them. But in this context, cruiser ready is easier to manipulate and yes, taking into account differing levels of training, is less likely to delay you when under duress. That's a simple fact.
Personal responsibility again, and if you’re providing the means then you should also be providing the proper amount training, whatever that may be per individual. What will they do if they have a simple malfunction or misfire? Roll over and give up or have some basic knowledge on how to correct it and continue trying to save their own lives. I would have to ask what exactly is the level of importance here if not that.
i get what you’re saying but it still reads to me as ‘this way is easier than training’.
Step back and think about what we are talking about here, at its root. Storing action locked, or unlocked. What are the advantages to storing action locked? What are the types of malfunctions and how would you clear them? If we limit ourselves to an empty chamber (wanting it to be drop safe) then I just don't see what the advantage could possibly be starting with action locked. I do understand keeping the action partially OPEN and one in the chamber. Do you actually have any reason why a pump gun should be stored empty chamber, action closed, and action locked? Can you describe a self defense + malfunction scenario that would require the action unlock button to be pressed? I've never encountered one and I struggle to imagine one where the correct action isn't attempting to cycle the action and then fire the weapon. The only times I've ever needed to press that lever are when I'm intentionally unloading. I can't think of a single instance that I've had to use that lever during a malfunction.
Sgt. 1st Class Billy Sole approves of this!
Magazine tubes were sold during the federal assault weapon ban years as replacement parts, A plain shotgun tube would be considered the same.
"Large capacity weapon” is any firearm that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device, or capable or readily modifiable to accept such a detachable feeding device, or employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than 5 shotgun shells or more than 10 rounds of other ammunition, or that is an “assault weapon.” “Assault weapon” has the same meaning as federal law. “Large capacity feeding device” is a magazine or similar device holding more than 5 rounds of shotgun ammunition or more than 10 rounds of other ammunition."
assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9 and M–12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
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