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Plate Carriers, Armor and Spalling

xtry51

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So instead of continuing to hijack a thread on this I'm pulling it out into its own. A discussion was started about the effects of spalling when hit while wearing a plate carrier. This video was posted:



The question is how much injury could one incur from spalling when hit, and what is the likelyhood that despite the carrier saving you life initially, that you suffer secondary wounding that is just as bad. I'm curious since I own armor, and I'd like to try a couple simple experiments.

My next rifle trip to the range I'll build a drywall box, throw a steel armor plate in and see what the results are on impacts around the inside of the box. At least one test with just the plate for a baseline, then I was thinking a second test with a pair of old jeans covering the plate as I'm not prepared to sacrifice an actual carrier at this point unless someone would like to donate one.

My question is what, if anything else, does anyone think could be put between the plate and carrier to absorb spalling. Keep in mind weight and overall thickness is an issue as it must fit in the carrier. Looking for common material suggestions and if anyone comes up with something intriguing I'll try to give it a whirl.
 
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Should be noted that we're talking about steel rifle plates. I don't think ceramic plates have the same issues because they are designed to absorb the energy of the round, whereas the steel plates mainly direct that energy elsewhere.

There is a big thread on exactly this topic at ar15.com that I didn't make it all the way through: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/13...or__pics_of_final_test_in_the_OP_.html&page=1

Might have more information.

Supposedly they do sell "spall guards" somewhere, though I can't find where, which are basically just soft armor/kevlar inserts that go in front of the steel plate to absorb the spall.

The guy in the ar15 thread cut up an old kevlar vest and glued ~3 layers of kevlar to his plate, and apparently that stopped all spalling?
 
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I have a soft vest, but no way I'm cutting it up to test this [laugh]

I'll dig thru that AR15 and see if anything of substance turns up.
 
The vests worn by Soldiers have Kevlar to absorb shrapnel (and spalling), with the plate worn outside the Kevlar vest.
 
Just an idea.....maybe tack some shootnsee/dirtybird type targets on the inside of the box, just so you can see if you get any spalling? Any large pieces will be obvious, but I think it'd be also good to see if you get any sort of small peices that you might not notice in the bottom of your test fixture.
 
Here is a pic done by Line-X to show what happens when a bullet hits an untreated steel armor plate, fragments and "throws" the fragments around. Pretty self-explanatory why this needs to be mitigated.

steelplate_13.jpg

steelplate_15.jpg

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Here is a pic done by Line-X to show what happens when a bullet hits an untreated steel armor plate, fragments and "throws" the fragments around. Pretty self-explanatory why this needs to be mitigated.

steelplate_13.jpg

steelplate_15.jpg
 
Still need a baseline for consistency in my testing, as I'm not replicating theirs.

I have some green board leftover from doing my bathroom. I think if I give it a light coating of black spray paint beforehand the impacts should be readily visible as green/white.
 
I don't think seeing that there is spall should be problematic... What I'm really curious about is the extent of the damage it can/will do to a person. How deep will it penetrate, etc? Don't know how strong the metal is in those pictures, but it certainly looks like something that I wouldn't want to be hitting me in the throat in the middle of a firefight.
 
What I'm planning on doing is putting a couple of layers of Kevlar across the face, then doing several more wrapping around the edges from front to back. I'm sure it will wear out eventually, but I'm not planning on sticking around long enough for the shrapnel to eat through that. I think you can get woven Kevlar on Ebay.
 
I work at a place that makes armor.

Generally Kevlar is employed to take care of any sort of spall.

With regards to capturing the effects of spall and general impact of the round, guys down at Aberdeen used to test armor on goats. Up until the 80s this was somewhat standard.

Now they use modelling clay to capture the depth of impact. I think 2-3 inches of depth is generally survivable. That is to say there is survivable internal hemmorhaging or broken ribs.

Just a suggestion since ballistic gel will catch the spall but not the depth of impact if you're worried about that at all.
 
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I did get to range today and got some great results with two cheap and easy solutions. I got hung up with a work issue, so I won't have time to do a thorough write up for a day or two.
 
I hope this write up is adequate. I don't have the panache that Boris and Timber have for storytelling so have a few extra beers and pretend I'm entertaining.

Guidelines for my taking this on:

A) Cost is the driving factor. Must be super cheap as I have more than one carrier and they all have steel plates, thus all needing some solution.
B) Must be easy to accomplish, I don't want to spend more than 1/2 hour per plate to do this. I have a family and a life. I don't spend every waking hour down in my nuclear fallout shelter prepping.
C) Materials must hold up to long term use, abuse and storage. This means that the coating must tolerate varying temperatures, me throwing it around all the time, getting wet, resistant to salt/sweat, etc.
D) Result must fit in my carrier. This means controlling thickness to under 3/4" total including plate (.200"). Armor is already bulky.
E) Must take (2) shots of M855 at 50 yards. I've got to be reasonable here. I'm not out planning to be in Afghanistan getting pounded by AK rounds. I'd prefer to never get shot at all and never need to where this armor. If I was serious about having super armor I'd try to acquire dragon skin, not be out here messing around with steel surplus plates. M855 at least gives you the steel core bouncing around, which shout increase the damage of the spall over lead/copper. I base this on no research whatsoever. YMMV. I limit the test to two shots because if I get hit more than once someone has a bead on me and I'm about to get hit with shots three, four, five, etc and odds are one of them is going to hit me in a place other than my plate so spall is the least of my worries. I'm thinking more of this situation, minus the uparmored humvee to hide behind. I don't have one of those...yet:



Explanation and Setup:

I scrounged around my garage, basement, shed etc for materials. Things like rigid foams, cardboard, etc were immediately dismissed due to inability to survive abuse. I came up with neoprene from a floor mat (yes like the one you wipe your feet on) and some old jeans I had in a rag bin. The jeans are generic brands, not heavy duty Levi/Carhart/etc. Both of these materials are cheap, easy to cut/form to plates and light, thus not adding a lot of overall weight.
Now I needed someway to attach the padding to the plates. I again wanted something I would always have on hand. Ideally it would not be permanent so repairs could be made. Enter our favorite friend Gorilla Tape. Way better than duct tape and I have a shit ton of it. Easy to apply, tough, cheap and forms well to plates.

Three experiments:

1) Base Case - Bare Plate.
2) Neoprene Indoor Floor Mat - (2) Layers from Target (as in the store) that cost me a mind blowing $7 and is about .200" thick. One door mat will give you three layers.
3) Jeans - (10) layers (again these are thin crappy jeans) made from the legs.

Procedure:
Again being a cheap bastard I need some way to "catch" the spall and rate it's danger. Some youtube videos show thin metal shrouds. I am more than capable of duplicating this, but the results I don't think would be easily understood by everyone reading the review here once I started yacking about gauge thickness etc. So I needed to find something everyone was familiar with that would somehow illustrate the spall's "danger." Enter the common cardboard box. Simple, effective. If the spall punches through the box it's fairly certain it can draw blood. If it doesn't I think we can be reasonably deduce no harm will come.
So each test will be conducted with the plate inside its own box. The plate will be free standing with a slight upward tilt giving the worst case, angled at your head. Plates with covering materials shall be held together with one layer of Gorilla Tape. Two rounds of ATI 62gr M855 will be fired at 50 yards. Results of each will be documented.

Results:

Let's start with the baseline case, bare plate. The results here were truly eye opening and frightening. Obviously this test ignore that you will have at least one layer of nylon (the carrier), but I think it serves nonetheless as a good place to start. Here in these pics you can clearly see the terrifying truth of what we're up against. I literally winced when I walked up to see the damage. I was not expecting this much damage:
BaseCase-TopLarge.jpg

BaseCase-Side1Large.jpg

BaseCase-Side2Large.jpg

BaseCase-Side4Large.jpg

BaseCase-Side3Large.jpg


I have to admit I was seriously doubting my cheap ass DIY solutions were going to help at all after this initial test, but things were about to take a nice turn. Next test was Neoprene with one layer of Gorilla Tape. The result turned the confidence tide towards the possibility something could be done:
NeopreneMat-Top2Large.jpg

NeopreneMat-Top1Large.jpg

Only one spall spot! Note the tape separation along the length of the strip. More about this later.
NeopreneMat-InsideBlowoutCloseupLarge.jpg

Bullet impact holes:
NeopreneMat-ImpactsIndiactedLarge.jpg

First side, note three tiny holes on right
NeopreneMat-Side1Large.jpg

Second side with spall spot
NeopreneMat-Side2Large.jpg

Side three, nothing!
NeopreneMat-Side3Large.jpg

Side four, nothing!
NeopreneMat-Side4Large.jpg

Here's a few pics of the cover removed. Note the shrapnel and how many tiny pieces there are.
NeopreneMat-Inside1Large.jpg

NeopreneMat-Inside2Large.jpg

NeopreneMat-Inside3Large.jpg

NeopreneMat-Inside4Large.jpg

Most damage taken by bottom layer:
NeopreneMat-BetweenLayersLarge.jpg


Moving on to the third test with the (10) layers of jeans. Layers were created by cutting the leg off jeans, slicing up the seam, then cutting in half. So each pair of jeans yielded (4) layers. Again one layer of Gorilla Tape applied.
Top view. Again note the tape separation along the length.
Jeans-Top2Large.jpg

Closeup of blowout and small spall mark.
Jeans-InsideBlowoutCloseupLarge.jpg

Impacts pointed out.
Jeans-ImpactsIndicatedLarge.jpg

Box side one. Small gash on Amazon logo was present before test. No spall!!
Jeans-Side1Large.jpg

Box side two. Shows two small spall marks. The pieces were still stuck in cardboard! No full penetration! Sucess!!!!!
Jeans-Side2Large.jpg

Box side three. No spall.
Jeans-Side3Large.jpg

Bow side four. See a trend? No spall!!
NeopreneMat-Side4Large.jpg

Cover removed. Note the decimation of the bottom layers. There was spall found between all layers, but only the bottom 4 of 10 were destroyed. The rest had only tiny holes and I would consider them reusable.
Jeans-Inside1Large.jpg

Jeans-Inside2Large.jpg

Between layers 5 and 6 (layer 1 being closest to plate)
Jeans-BetweenLayers2Large.jpg

Between Layers 6 and 7:
Jeans-BetweenLayers1Large.jpg


Plate after all shots fired. Lower left shot is from when I first got the plate. I shoot at every steel plate before it goes in a carrier. I will still be reusing this plate in a carrier. It is not a spare.
PlateAfterAllShootsLarge.jpg


Lessons Learned and Next Steps:

Needless to say I'm very happy with the results here. After seeing the uncoated plate test I think its clear I've made pregress. Both test materials kept the plate relatively thin, less than a ceramic and added no more than 1/3-1/2lb per plate. I consider that weight negligible. We're talking about a carrier with steel plates and multiple loaded 30rd mags. Not exactly featherweight. The main concern I have now that needs to be addressed is the blowouts shown in both neoprene and jean tests. The blowout along with my shots be roughly centered on the plate leaves a little to be desired for closer to the edge hits.
I believe these can be remedied by simply using 2 layers of Gorilla tape 90° apart. I will be testing this in my next outing along with 3 layers of tape (one verticle and two at 45°). Another option is to use bed liner as shown in other youtube and forum tests. I'm thinking about using one layer of gorilla tape and then using a spray can of bedliner to cover it. Then I can compare the double and triple layer tape to it and see which avenue is better. I don't know the cost of the bed liner cans yet or how many plates I can coat with each can. This will be a deciding factor as I still want to keep this cheap. As of right now the best results, Jeans, cost me only the gorilla tape to make as I have tons of old jeans in my rag bins. I may retry the neoprene again with multi-layered tape in a second outing as well if I can remember to pick up another mat.
I hope this was helpful. If anyone else has any further ideas feel free to post them up and I'll see what I can do to try them out. I'll add at this point there is no way I'd waste the money on Kevlar. The cost is real high and I'm honestly not seeing any proof out there that it will be more effective than my DIY solutions have proven to be here. Again if I had cash and wanted to have highend protection I'd just buy premade sleeves. That is not the point of my experiments here.
 
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This is awesome. Super useful. I have some mil issue kevlar pads that I've collected I've my timer in the service and a plate carrier I bought while I was overseas... Was going to pair it with some steel plates... I'll now be throwing some gorilla tape to hold it tight and mitigate blowouts. Thanks for this

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**** my phones spelling
 
Very neat test (I was there). That first plate (bare) threw material that had impacts almost like birdshot in a line right at the surface of the plate in all directions. No question, that would be miserable to experience. Imagine that stuff crawling up your scalp or face. Brutal. The benefit of the denim or neoprene material with the gorilla tape was huge -- if I were wearing those plates I would absolutely use one of these techniques.
 
the duplicolor bedliner I have found to be not very durable at least in the automotive enviroment, you would be better off with rubberized undercoating and that will add a lot of weight

I'm going to give it a whirl anyway since I'm really just looking for something to "hold" the tape together.
 
I got a question about this, but I'm sorry to say I haven't gotten back out to test the next step yet. Work is getting ridiculous as the year closes and businesses run around spending money before .gov starts stealing more of it. I promise I have not abandoned the project and will get it done as soon as I get a chance to breathe.
 
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