Paperwork mistake - sale denied

[Bob's Gun & Archery Shop]

I prefer the current laws requiring having the 4473's destroyed after a short period of time....I do NOT want to have any federal records, or ANY records kept, of the details of my exercising my 2nd amendment rights...

So what if I have to fill out the temporary 4473 form CAREFULLY each time, and the dealer has to phone in the info for a NICs check.......far better than having your info recorded in some .gov database..... the less info they have the better IMHO

And as far as the fingerprint...what's that all about ???
Maybe for a AOW or machinegun or suppressor....but certainly not for just buying a handgun or longarm...??

I see what your saying, but in todays computer world and lack of understanding by the Feds on clerical errors and omitted questions happening by human error. I have changed my entire record system to 100% computer generated forms with a computer aided audio interface ( talking 4473 )which is filled out by the customer. The software gets rid of clerical errors when filling out forms, and every customer generates their own encrypted BID file.


when you buy a gun from my store you basically put your finger on the Biometric RF scanner to bring up your own personal data and thats it. you go straight to questions and answers and then I print the form and you confirm the answer are correct and sign section 16 and fill in the certification date and then I proceed to electronically do the FBI check.

then move on to the MIRCS electronic registration, the total time it takes me to do a transaction is under 5 minutes.

This wasn't allowed until last year when the feds allowed electronic bound books for use by any FFL who wished to use it. before you had to file for a variance to be allowed electronic books.

 

[Mike1911]

I would say if you didn't sign it, it's not a legal document.

I've made a mistake or two and they just ripped up the form and I started a new one.

 

[jdubois]

The one that gets me is the immigrate/alien question. I'm always like, what the hell does this mean? It's not even understandable. It might be to an immigrant, but I'm not so it's just "what?".

Which question are you referring to? Question 11.l? "Are you a nonimmigrant alien?" Seems straightforward enough to me, if you're not a nonimmigrant alien, check 'No'. You then leave Question 12 blank.

And seeing as everything is so automated, why ask anything anyway?

So that they can then prosecute you under 18 USC 44 § 922(a)(6) for making false statements in connection with the attempted acquisition of a firearm from a dealer. Without the form 4473 questions, they couldn't easily prosecute anybody for a straw purchase, for example.

 

[vellnueve]

While the dealer may not have had to deny the transaction, it's you that screwed up and no one else should be taking the blame.

You've made a mistake, instead of blaming the dealer, just be glad you hadn't signed the form already and take it as a lesson to read more carefully next time.

 

[Taipan01]

Which question are you referring to? Question 11.l? "Are you a nonimmigrant alien?" Seems straightforward enough to me, if you're not a nonimmigrant alien, check 'No'. You then leave Question 12 blank.

So that they can then prosecute you under 18 USC 44 § 922(a)(6) for making false statements in connection with the attempted acquisition of a firearm from a dealer. Without the form 4473 questions, they couldn't easily prosecute anybody for a straw purchase, for example.

So, then I would just be an alien?

That's what my last sentence hinted at " I guess it's just to deny you on a paperwork mistake. And then the fun begins."

 

[Taipan01]

I see what your saying, but in todays computer world and lack of understanding by the Feds on clerical errors and omitted questions happening by human error. I have changed my entire record system to 100% computer generated forms with a computer aided audio interface ( talking 4473 )which is filled out by the customer. The software gets rid of clerical errors when filling out forms, and every customer generates their own encrypted BID file.


when you buy a gun from my store you basically put your finger on the Biometric RF scanner to bring up your own personal data and thats it. you go straight to questions and answers and then I print the form and you confirm the answer are correct and sign section 16 and fill in the certification date and then I proceed to electronically do the FBI check.

then move on to the MIRCS electronic registration, the total time it takes me to do a transaction is under 5 minutes.

This wasn't allowed until last year when the feds allowed electronic bound books for use by any FFL who wished to use it. before you had to file for a variance to be allowed electronic books.

Seems like your way ahead of the curve. My compliments sir.

 

[terraformer]

Seems like your way ahead of the curve. My compliments sir.

Being ahead of the curve in this business is even more impressive given the risks of being a non-conformer.

 

[troda]

This guy makes a mistake on a form and asks if its happened before and was the dealer being overly cautious and some of you jump all over him. Shit happens, no harm no foul.
Go back on Mon and buy the gun. If they wont sell it go someplace else.

 

[bill o]

I decided to take my business to another dealer today. So I'm now the proud owner of a Ruger 10/22. Should be a fun little gun for plinking.

 

[Mattitude]

People make mistakes on forms every day...we are people and not machines and those things happen. You picked up on your error I assume right after you checked the "yes" box ("damn...I can't believe I just did that, let me fix that") but the salesman was being overly anal for not letting you initial/date and then check the correct box. You are allowed to change your answers BEFORE you sign the form and of course before the NICS check. Glad that you took your business elsewhere and congrats on your 10/22!!! Next thing you know you'll be eyeballing an AR/AK or even a sweet handgun.

 

[Remsport Mfg]

It's yes to question 1 and all no's after it is an easy form.

 

[depicts]

Congrats on your first gun. May it be one of many.

 

[jdubois]

So, then I would just be an alien?

Huh? If you are not a nonimmigrant alien, then you are either a resident alien or a citizen.

 

[jdubois]

It's yes to question 1 and all no's after it is an easy form.

Technically, for most people, it's one yes, eleven no's, and one blank.

 

[cekim]

It's yes to question 1 and all no's after it is an easy form.

Clearly, people should be buying guns more often to familiarize themselves with the form

I have to check the questions each time just to make sure those sneaky bastiges didn't change them on me.....

 

[derrick_lui]

Huh? If you are not a nonimmigrant alien, then you are either a resident alien or a citizen.

Technically if you are in the country for 90 days, you are considered a "resident" even if you are not a permenant resident (have a green card). That is why many temporary visa aliens wont be able to purchase guns legally.

Taipan, there are two types of Alien transactions on a 4473 (immigrant aliens AKA ppl with green cards, or non immagrant aliens AKA ppl with temporary visas)...if both dont apply to you, check no and leave the next Q blank then move on. That question is to see if a non-immigrant aliens is able to fall under an exception from the Fed prohibition...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I prefer the current laws requiring having the 4473's destroyed after a short period of time....I do NOT want to have any federal records, or ANY records kept, of the details of my exercising my 2nd amendment rights...

What law would that be?

NICS record checks must be destroyed after a short period of time, however, dealers must keep 4473s on file for an extended period of time (not sure how long - I think it's either 20 years or forever), and turn them in to the BATFE if they go out of business.

 

[CrossFrire]

It's yes to question 1 and all no's after it is an easy form.

Agreed, but there is still human error and we ALL make mistakes.
But I can't reallt fault a dealer for being carefull when BATFE looks at every clerical error on a form as a seperate transaction error even if it does not invalidate the sale.
BATFE makes the IRS look like the Red Cross.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

What law would that be?

NICS record checks must be destroyed after a short period of time, however, dealers must keep 4473s on file for an extended period of time (not sure how long - I think it's either 20 years or forever), and turn them in to the BATFE if they go out of business.

yup, that is correct. Those forms then sit in another storage box until the end of time. Nice use of taxpayer money.....

 

[Serapis]

This guy makes a mistake on a form and asks if its happened before and was the dealer being overly cautious and some of you jump all over him. Shit happens, no harm no foul.
Go back on Mon and buy the gun. If they wont sell it go someplace else.

+1.

I guess some people around here never make mistakes.

 

[Rob]

I usually fill those out like a robot. When they changed the form a little while back I got all screwed up and had a few 'woops' moments. They shredded the bad form and I filled the next one out more carefully.

It's no big deal so long as the manager isn't an ass. And quite frankly, this should never have been an issue. The clerk should have known better.

Either way, I'm going to add this to the list of why I don't buy guns from 'sporting goods' stores.

 

[drgrant]

yup, that is correct. Those forms then sit in another storage box until the end of time. Nice use of taxpayer money.....

Well, maybe... If the dealer has forms that reach the retention interval (which is like 20 years or some crazy amount of time) they can just destroy them.
However, if the dealer goes out of business before that point, the 4473s get sent off to some BATFE warehouse for retention.

-Mike

 

[jdubois]

Technically if you are in the country for 90 days, you are considered a "resident" even if you are not a permenant resident (have a green card). That is why many temporary visa aliens wont be able to purchase guns legally.

I knew as soon as I wrote "resident" that I was going to get called out on it

The 90 days you are referring to is the ATF condition for state residency. Federal residency status is more complicated that what you write above. You are a resident alien only if you have a green card, are awaiting a green card based on specific conditional conditions that you must meet, or you meet the "substantial presence test". The substantial presence test requires you to have been in the US for at least 31 days during the current year, and 183 days during the past three years. However, even if you meet the substantial presence test, you still may not be a resident alien if you meet other criteria (you own a home in another country which you spend more time at than here, you are on a student or teacher visa, you work for a foreign government, etc)

However, your point is still valid. Resident alien and immigrant alien are not exactly the same category, because if you happen to be a resident alien due to the substantial presence test but were admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, you are a still nonimmigrant alien, and the form 4473 definition (as well as 18 USC 44 § 922(g)(5)) only specifically exempts permanent residents from the definition of nonimmigrant alien, which is those with green cards.

 

[derrick_lui]

I knew as soon as I wrote "resident" that I was going to get called out on it

The 90 days you are referring to is the ATF condition for state residency. Federal residency status is more complicated that what you write above. You are a resident alien only if you have a green card, are awaiting a green card based on specific conditional conditions that you must meet, or you meet the "substantial presence test". The substantial presence test requires you to have been in the US for at least 31 days during the current year, and 183 days during the past three years. However, even if you meet the substantial presence test, you still may not be a resident alien if you meet other criteria (you own a home in another country which you spend more time at than here, you are on a student or teacher visa, you work for a foreign government, etc)

However, your point is still valid. Resident alien and immigrant alien are not exactly the same category, because if you happen to be a resident alien due to the substantial presence test but were admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, you are a still nonimmigrant alien, and the form 4473 definition (as well as 18 USC 44 § 922(g)(5)) only specifically exempts permanent residents from the definition of nonimmigrant alien, which is those with green cards.

You got some good points there!

 

[bostonasphalt2]

Well, maybe... If the dealer has forms that reach the retention interval (which is like 20 years or some crazy amount of time) they can just destroy them.
However, if the dealer goes out of business before that point, the 4473s get sent off to some BATFE warehouse for retention.

-Mike

right but at the end of the day, its either destruction after a long-ass time, or sitting in a cardboard box in a warehouse.

 

[Taipan01]

Hmmmm...... I guess you really need a lot of "legaleeze" to fully understand question number 11. Well thanks for the information. I'll just keep writing no.