Paperwork mistake - sale denied

bill o

bill o

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So I'm buying my first gun at a sporting goods store this afternoon. The salesman gives me the yellow form to fill out, and I have a total brain fart and check off the yes box on the question about being under indictment (which I am most certainly not). Long story short, I explain my mistake and sale is denied until the store manager can ok it on Monday, and they'll call me to re-do the sale.

So what's the deal? It was a simple paperwork error, which I admit I was careless for making. Was the store legally obligated to deny me the sale? Or could he just have let me start a new form?
 
bill o said:
So I'm buying my first gun at a sporting goods store this afternoon. The salesman gives me the yellow form to fill out, and I have a total brain fart and check off the yes box on the question about being under indictment (which I am most certainly not). Long story short, I explain my mistake and sale is denied until the store manager can ok it on Monday, and they'll call me to re-do the sale.

So what's the deal? It was a simple paperwork error, which I admit I was careless for making. Was the store legally obligated to deny me the sale? Or could he just have let me start a new form?
Click to expand...

I've screwed up the form a few times (if you buy enough guns, sooner or later you get caught in the moment [grin]). They have always just given me a new form.

Go to a different store and be careful with the form, it's easy to screw up when you are excited!
 
bill o said:
....So what's the deal?...
Click to expand...

The deal is that you just certified that you are prohibited from owning a firearm.
If the manager of the store is competent, he will permanently blacklist you and turn your name over to the ATFE.
To do otherwise puts him in violation of the law.

You really stepped on your tail this time.
You should seek the help of an lawyer specializing in firearms law to help you fix this mess.

Firearms laws tend to be a zero tolerance situation. Your intentions don't mean squat.

Jack
 
I read each question every time!!

It may sound funny but, I read each question every time bfore checking it off!!
Just incase they changed the form and try to trick us!!!
First yes then all no...but always read what you sign.
One check might just be signing your right away sometime!!![sad2]
 
I screw up FA-10s and other forms all the time. I keep extra around. I've never seen anyone refuse a sale when you make a check mark in the wrong place. Mostly they just fill out a new form and tell you to be careful.

Sounds like the salesman was a dick head.
 
KenK said:
It may sound funny but, I read each question every time bfore checking it off!!
Just incase they changed the form and try to trick us!!!
First yes then all no...but always read what you sign.
One check might just be signing your right away sometime!!![sad2]
Click to expand...

I did not sign anything. I realized my mistake the instant I did it.
 
depicts said:
I screw up FA-10s and other forms all the time. I keep extra around. I've never seen anyone refuse a sale when you make a check mark in the wrong place. Mostly they just fill out a new form and tell you to be careful.

Sounds like the salesman was a dick head.
Click to expand...

I do have to say the salesman was polite and knowledgeable about firearms. I'm not blaming him personally. What I'm trying to find out is if this is the law or an over-cautious BS corporate policy.
 
bill o said:
What I'm trying to find out is if this is the law or an over-cautious BS corporate policy.
Click to expand...

As long as you didn't sign section 16, certifying your answers on the form 4473, I don't see any legal reason for not just giving you another form. Sounds like the salesman was just playing it overly cautious.
 
If you caught your mistake immediately and they would not give you a new form, I'd find a new place to shop.
 
bill o said:
Which law?
Click to expand...

jhrosier is probably referring to 18 USC 44 § 922(d), which does not allow anybody to sell a firearm to someone who they have "reasonable cause to believe" is under indictment for a crime punishable by more than one year in prison. But just screwing up a form 4473 without signing it is extremely unlikely to be seen as "reasonable cause to believe".
 
jdubois said:
jhrosier is probably referring to 18 USC 44 § 922(d), which does not allow anybody to sell a firearm to someone who they have "reasonable cause to believe" is under indictment for a crime punishable by more than one year in prison. But just screwing up a form 4473 without signing it is extremely unlikely to be seen as "reasonable cause to believe".
Click to expand...

Thanks.
Yes that is what I was refering to.
The OP had not indicated that he had not signed the form when I made my reply.

This is exactly the sort of stuff that happens when the ATFE conducts a sting.
Any manager who fails to recognise the various, sometimes oblique, attempts to entrap him will likely not be in the business very long.

It is a shame that things have taken such a sorry turn, but if you are in the gun business, no LEO is your friend.

Jack
 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback! It was mildly embarrassing to be turned away on my first purchase, but I really learned my lesson.
 
KenK said:
It may sound funny but, I read each question every time bfore checking it off!!
Just incase they changed the form and try to trick us!!!
First yes then all no...but always read what you sign.
One check might just be signing your right away sometime!!![sad2]
Click to expand...

I do that too, I even read and answer them out loud. [laugh]
 
bill o said:
So I'm buying my first gun at a sporting goods store this afternoon. The salesman gives me the yellow form to fill out, and I have a total brain fart and check off the yes box on the question about being under indictment (which I am most certainly not). Long story short, I explain my mistake and sale is denied until the store manager can ok it on Monday, and they'll call me to re-do the sale.

So what's the deal? It was a simple paperwork error, which I admit I was careless for making. Was the store legally obligated to deny me the sale? Or could he just have let me start a new form?
Click to expand...

Would not surprise me if they refused to let you do it again that day.

You really don't want to screw up a 4473- unless you want to make an FFL nervous. Some of the nicer ones will ask you "are you REALLY sure this is what you meant to answer???!?!?"

I always read the questions just to make sure they don't try to throw funny business in there.


-Mike
 
The one that gets me is the immigrate/alien question. I'm always like, what the hell does this mean? It's not even understandable. It might be to an immigrant, but I'm not so it's just "what?". And seeing as everything is so automated, why ask anything anyway? They take your fingerprint, clear it over the lines, why not have it printout your pertenants from it's data base along with your image as verifacation on the forms themselves and cc the FBI instead of having the dealer recite all your information over the phone for all to hear. Talk about a way to get identity theft, just park outside a gun shop with snooper software as they all use cell phones anyway. Or is that to simple. Same way when you re-new your license. Why not a box asking if anything has changed since your last application, if not, give us our (tax) money and sign here. I guess it's just to deny you on a paperwork mistake. And then the fun begins.
 
Last edited:
Taipan01 said:
The one that gets me is the immigrate/alien question. I'm always like, what the hell does this mean? It's not even understandable. It might be to an immigrant, but I'm not so it's just "what?". And seeing as everything is so automated, why ask anything anyway? They take your fingerprint, clear it over the lines, why not have it printout your pertenants from it's data base along with your image as verifacation on the forms themselves and cc the FBI instead of having the dealer recite all your information over the phone for all to hear. Talk about a way to get identity theft, just park outside a gun shop with snooper software as they all use cell phones anyway. Or is that to simple. Same way when you re-new your license. Why not a box asking if anything has changed since your last application, if not, give us our (tax) money and sign here. I guess it's just to deny you on a paperwork mistake. And then the fun begins.
Click to expand...


I prefer the current laws requiring having the 4473's destroyed after a short period of time....I do NOT want to have any federal records, or ANY records kept, of the details of my exercising my 2nd amendment rights...

So what if I have to fill out the temporary 4473 form CAREFULLY each time, and the dealer has to phone in the info for a NICs check.......far better than having your info recorded in some .gov database..... the less info they have the better IMHO

And as far as the fingerprint...what's that all about ???
Maybe for a AOW or machinegun or suppressor....but certainly not for just buying a handgun or longarm...??
 
This sounds like one of those "BIG store" policies.
I have done so many of the 4473s that I go on auto pilot, and only later do I tend to realize that the form has actually changed.

The first time I got the form with the new are you the actual buyer.. I was so used to checking no on everything I did not even think about it.

I guess the downside for you is that as you did not have a history with these guys, they treated you badly. I would say that unless the gun you tried to buy is not available anyplace else, I would take my business elsewhere, and make sure they know later on that due to the salesperson's attitude, they lost a sale..
 
George D said:
Well, at least when you get denied on your next purchase, you'll know who to blame. [laugh]

"No, I'm not THAT bill 0, I'm BillO"
Click to expand...
I had this explained to me by the MA DMV - "everyone is a 0"(zero)[laugh] There are no "O"...

As has been said in this thread already - nothing is "certified" until you sign... There's no issue shredding the form and starting over, but obviously it is at the discretion of the seller as to how to interpret your slip...
 
jdubois said:
As long as you didn't sign section 16, certifying your answers on the form 4473, I don't see any legal reason for not just giving you another form. Sounds like the salesman was just playing it overly cautious.
Click to expand...

bingo we have a winner, until you certify the answers and personal information is correct by signing section 16 you can scrap it and fill the form out with the correct information. If you messed up and signed the form then you can be denied.
 

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