Varmint
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Optics versus Iron Sights
- Thread starter Nickle
- Start date
The key to hitting small targets at distance with a red dot is to use the top of the dot to aim
Many don't practice or practice poor fundamentals.
If it where not for shooting my pellet guns at home I would really suck.
This thread didn't get to where I think the OP was looking.
I think it should have been titled
Optics, Iron sights and the challenges and solutions with vision challenges.?
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Irons are like black coffee, Telecasters, and map-and-compass land nav: more of a challenge, but lower-tech and therefore more reliable. Mastery takes time, effort, and practice, but gives me a sense of great satisfaction.
Scopes of of any kind are more like a caramel spiced pumpkin latte, or a Stratocaster, or a gps: easier to master, more expensive, more finicky. Also easier to break. They require less practice, so they're less interesting to me.
YMMV.
Scopes of of any kind are more like a caramel spiced pumpkin latte, or a Stratocaster, or a gps: easier to master, more expensive, more finicky. Also easier to break. They require less practice, so they're less interesting to me.
YMMV.
I'm getting close to finishing my first ar, decided to go with irons only. Not only did I want to save some money, but I like shooting rifles with iron sights already. Plus, I don't expect my iron sights to run out of batteries when the zombies knock on my door.
Well, it certainly didn't go where I wanted it. Last thing we need is a list of opinions on the merits of each. Yeah, it was intended to discuss the problems with people's eyesight and which system they should use to compensate for problems.
I know a LOT of people are going to try to take me to task over what I'm about to post below, but I can tell you most will be wrong.
Optics will not replace practice, and I don't care how much money you spend on the optic.
Some people really don't have good enough eyesight to get it done with irons, even with a lot of practice.
Yes, you can compensate for some vision problems by a LOT of practice, but you can compensate for some of them, or partially compensate for others.
You may think you can fool a red dot into precision work at long range, but you really can't. Of course, that also depends on the definitions used for "precision work" and "long range". Since much of this stuff is actually designed for military use, let's use military definitions there. Precision is head shots and long range is in excess of 500 yards. A red dot is known to the Army as a CCO (Close Combat Optic) generally intended for 200-300 yards max and body shots at that. They are fast usually, given some practice.
Precision work (groups under 1 MOA or head shots, or distance in excess of 500 yards) generally requires optics. Exception is made for high power competition, because their targets are adequately sized so they can use irons out to 1000 yards (and the good ones will mention practice is essential).
A lousy shooter with irons that goes to magnified optics may improve some, but it still won't turn him into an expert shooter. Dragging wood, poor breathing control, lack of NPOA, lack of proper position, poor trigger control are all still relevant and trump any optical gains. Some optics will handle bullet drop, but this is actually not essential (but nice to have). But, you still have to know how to use it, and that takes practice.
Then there's the whole wind doping and parallax compensation bit. Lots of people fall down here.
So, a lot of it boils down to using the right stuff, knowing how to use it (training), compensating for the environment (training and practice) and practicing enough to get all that into muscle memory.
I know a LOT of people are going to try to take me to task over what I'm about to post below, but I can tell you most will be wrong.
Optics will not replace practice, and I don't care how much money you spend on the optic.
Some people really don't have good enough eyesight to get it done with irons, even with a lot of practice.
Yes, you can compensate for some vision problems by a LOT of practice, but you can compensate for some of them, or partially compensate for others.
You may think you can fool a red dot into precision work at long range, but you really can't. Of course, that also depends on the definitions used for "precision work" and "long range". Since much of this stuff is actually designed for military use, let's use military definitions there. Precision is head shots and long range is in excess of 500 yards. A red dot is known to the Army as a CCO (Close Combat Optic) generally intended for 200-300 yards max and body shots at that. They are fast usually, given some practice.
Precision work (groups under 1 MOA or head shots, or distance in excess of 500 yards) generally requires optics. Exception is made for high power competition, because their targets are adequately sized so they can use irons out to 1000 yards (and the good ones will mention practice is essential).
A lousy shooter with irons that goes to magnified optics may improve some, but it still won't turn him into an expert shooter. Dragging wood, poor breathing control, lack of NPOA, lack of proper position, poor trigger control are all still relevant and trump any optical gains. Some optics will handle bullet drop, but this is actually not essential (but nice to have). But, you still have to know how to use it, and that takes practice.
Then there's the whole wind doping and parallax compensation bit. Lots of people fall down here.
So, a lot of it boils down to using the right stuff, knowing how to use it (training), compensating for the environment (training and practice) and practicing enough to get all that into muscle memory.
And, I'll add something here. In many cases, I recommend having backup irons if you use optics, especially anything that needs a battery to work. If you don't have a BUIS system, then get ready to pack the gun up when (not if) the optics fail.
xtry51
NES Member
Totally agree on BUIS.
45deg offsets are another option over foldables.
If you use foldables I highly recommemd you use a quality QD mount. I religiously rely on LaRue QD mounts because it repeats zero and allows you to actually pull your optic and train with your BUIS then remount without rezero.
There's certainly no substitute for practice, and I don't mean bench practice. The only time I bench my gun is when I'm grouping ammo to see what it and my gun are capable of removing me as much as possible. Shooting a group from a bench gives you zero indication of what your group size and POA/POI are in any other position. Especially with scopes and even more so if you where glasses/contacts.
45deg offsets are another option over foldables.
If you use foldables I highly recommemd you use a quality QD mount. I religiously rely on LaRue QD mounts because it repeats zero and allows you to actually pull your optic and train with your BUIS then remount without rezero.
There's certainly no substitute for practice, and I don't mean bench practice. The only time I bench my gun is when I'm grouping ammo to see what it and my gun are capable of removing me as much as possible. Shooting a group from a bench gives you zero indication of what your group size and POA/POI are in any other position. Especially with scopes and even more so if you where glasses/contacts.
Exactly.
I shoot from the bench and positions. But then, I have some rifles that are used that way. I can't fathom somebody trying to shoot one of my rifles from standing. 30 pounds, 29" barrel, huge stock, 222 Rem (for now) with a tight neck and it has a 25 or 36 power scope. Others are very practical from position, like the M1 or M1A. Both wear irons.
As to the BUIS on an AR, I prefer MaTech. The military uses them, they work. Most of those guns I run a regular AR front sight, no folder. They work with the ACOG and the CompM4.
These aren't photos of my stuff, just online photos.
I shoot from the bench and positions. But then, I have some rifles that are used that way. I can't fathom somebody trying to shoot one of my rifles from standing. 30 pounds, 29" barrel, huge stock, 222 Rem (for now) with a tight neck and it has a 25 or 36 power scope. Others are very practical from position, like the M1 or M1A. Both wear irons.
As to the BUIS on an AR, I prefer MaTech. The military uses them, they work. Most of those guns I run a regular AR front sight, no folder. They work with the ACOG and the CompM4.
These aren't photos of my stuff, just online photos.
