Old man stops robbery

[Jose]

That doesn't pass my test for stopping an imminent threat.

That seems to be a re-occurring theme with you. You love to second guess and MMQB after seeing a few seconds and a very limited view of someone else's confrontation.

You weren't there. Stop the G-D speculation.

OBTW, thanks for your advice on the use of deadly force.....

 

[Palladin]

I like the woman standing there in the middle of it all covering her ears!
Pops should upgrade to a for-tay...shows how fast you can empty a Kel-tec and still have the BG's standing.

 

[peshooter]

I think a larger caliber probably would have had worse results here given how poor his shot placement was with the 380.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

He engaged someone with an already drawn weapon in a crowded area, delivered all shots without injury to innocents, and removed the ability of the criminals to decide if any of the patrons of that cafe would ever see their dog again. While one can argue "what if's" all day long, the net result of compliance is that doing so is turning the ability to make THE vital decision about your future over to the aggressor.

What is more amazing that his performance, however, is that the mainstream media didn't sweep this under the rug.

 

[Jose]

He engaged someone with an already drawn weapon in a crowded area, delivered all shots without injury to innocents, and removed the ability of the criminals to decide if any of the patrons of that cafe would ever see their dog again. While one can argue "what if's" all day long, the net result of compliance is that doing so is turning the ability to make THE vital decision about your future over to the aggressor.

What is more amazing that his performance, however, is that the mainstream media didn't sweep this under the rug.

Excellent summary

[/thread]

 

[fivepak]

I have to laugh at some of these comments about shooting them as they retreat, and poor shot placement. I'm not going to armchair quarterback unless I've been in his shoes. I'd give the guy the key to the city.

 

[flintoid]

Rob nailed it on the head.

and to all of you questioning the .380 caliber and "why this is proof that it's basically worthless," I had a discussion about this with my brother and he raised an excellent point: this supposedly worthless caliber allowed this man to pocket conceal. Given the situation, this offered an obvious advantage. I cannot assume this man's ability to draw from a holster, but given the age of him, and the odds of him training for quick, safe draws from a concealed holster capable of holding a larger caliber (think IWB), I'd be willing to bet the farm that the pocket holster that this man utilized (or just plain pocket) allowed him to act in a swift, decisive manner.

Yeah, the BG's didn't die.

But the speed of which the old man acted had impact on this situation. It didn't allow these BG's to gain a advantage because they didn't have time to set themselves up.

So no, the .380 is not a "useless" round. This man demonstrated as to why it actually can be used effectively. And you cannot argue otherwise because the results are factual.

 

[Jose]

Rob nailed it on the head.

and to all of you questioning the .380 caliber and "why this is proof that it's basically worthless," I had a discussion about this with my brother and he raised an excellent point: this supposedly worthless caliber allowed this man to pocket conceal. Given the situation, this offered an obvious advantage. I cannot assume this man's ability to draw from a holster, but given the age of him, and the odds of him training for quick, safe draws from a concealed holster capable of holding a larger caliber (think IWB), I'd be willing to bet the farm that the pocket holster that this man utilized (or just plain pocket) allowed him to act in a swift, decisive manner.

Yeah, the BG's didn't die.

But the speed of which the old man acted had impact on this situation. It didn't allow these BG's to gain a advantage because they didn't have time to set themselves up.

So no, the .380 is not a "useless" round. This man demonstrated as to why it actually can be used effectively. And you cannot argue otherwise because the results are factual.

You could say the same thing about a revolver, which many consider obsolete for defensive use.

In the hands of a determined individual with balls, any firearm becomes a formidable weapon.

 

[fivepak]

They sure didn't seem ready to stand their ground and face that .380 if it was a .380. I read the article on Fox News, but not the link posted here. Was that in fact the caliber?

 

[P-14]

. Never mind.

 

[drgrant]

Rob nailed it on the head.

and to all of you questioning the .380 caliber and "why this is proof that it's basically worthless," I had a discussion about this with my brother and he raised an excellent point: this supposedly worthless caliber allowed this man to pocket conceal. Given the situation, this offered an obvious advantage. I cannot assume this man's ability to draw from a holster, but given the age of him, and the odds of him training for quick, safe draws from a concealed holster capable of holding a larger caliber (think IWB), I'd be willing to bet the farm that the pocket holster that this man utilized (or just plain pocket) allowed him to act in a swift, decisive manner.

Yeah, the BG's didn't die.

But the speed of which the old man acted had impact on this situation. It didn't allow these BG's to gain a advantage because they didn't have time to set themselves up.

So no, the .380 is not a "useless" round. This man demonstrated as to why it actually can be used effectively. And you cannot argue otherwise because the results are factual.

I'll also posit that even if the guy had a .40 or .45 the outcome could have been exactly the same. I still consider .380 marginal but we're not talking an exponential difference most of the time.

A lot of gun shop commandos don't believe this. Mas Ayoob wrote an account years ago describing an altercation where a woman's crazy husband shot her with a .45 ACP handgun no less than 5 times. She ran away and drove herself to the hospital.... with 5 holes in her. Granted, she was lucky, but it shows you that any caliber can fail if the hits are not good, and the "accepted good" calibers are no different.

This is a good shoot any way you slice it.

-Mike

 

[BW23]

This old guy is my hero! .380 huh?? I'm glad I up'd to 9mm haha! but now I may up it again to .40

judges??

form - 8
pursuit - 9
reaction time -9
awesomeness - 10

-BW

 

[Cap]

I did NOT say I thought he should be charged with anything. Don't put words in my mouth. The local sheriff said he was not going to charge him, and that's good enough for me. In looking at the video again, I think the shooter made a mistake in following the BGs, and firing at them through the door, but it's a close call about the threat. As I have stated earlier in this thread, we are only looking at videos, and I'll have to assume the shooter still felt there was a threat.

The danger (at least for me) is the thinking that it's OK to shoot someone who is running away and no longer a threat. I can understand adrenaline in a fight situation, and mistakes can be made. But I have thought through many scenarios like this, and I would go in knowing ahead of time what my limits should be.

I would definitely not advise engaging a fleeing BG. I have reviewed the justifiable use of force laws for several states, and someone doing that risks a very long time behind bars. For me, I'm only interested in self defense, and I enjoy my freedom. Once the threat stops, the shooting stops.

Someone running away is certainly not "no longer a threat". If they are able to run, they are able to turn around and reengage...

If the guy was sprawled on the ground, bleeding out and no longer in control of the weapon, then you would have an argument.

 

[fbirdquik6]

"Williams pulls out a .380-caliber semi-automatic handgun"

"Both men were shot by Williams. Their wounds were not life-threatening."

This is why I don't bother with .380.

Corporal Mark Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The suspect fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest.

Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.

Corporal Coates had been with the South Carolina Highway patrol for 5 years, and had previously served with the United States Marine Corps. He was survived by his wife, two sons, parents, sister and brother.

RIP Trooper Coates



Calibers don't win a gun battle, shot placement does.

 

[pastera]

I consider armed robbery a threat too, and while they were in the shop brandishing weapons, they were fair game. I thought I made that clear. If they are running away like scared children, the threat has stopped, and self defense shooting is not justified (IMHO). Regarding your last statement, I don't consider myself in the role of judge and jury, and it's not up to me to enact retribution or revenge. Just protection. It's not up to me to set them straight.

If that constitutes an outing, so be it.

They continued to threaten the compliant customers, why should the defender treat them differently. They made no attempt to surrender only to escape. A man kneeling on the ground with hand on his head fingers interleaved is not a threat, a running man is.

 

[joeendris]

what baffles me is you click on the link and it emphasizes that he prob wont be charged, Seriously what dumb*** would even consider that. What Lawyer would even think they had a shot of convicting this person.

DA Blodgett. You think he would think twice about trying an attempted murder charge? Look at what he threatened to do the Anthony McKay when Anthony was protecting himself from an "unknown threat" (turned out to be a 10" kitchen knife and a baton) That asshat Blodgett wanted to get Anthony for 5 years on felonious assault and battery.....on a criminal .

So, yeah, there are DAs who would love to get ahold of this old man to teach the rest of us a lesson.

 

[peshooter]

He engaged someone with an already drawn weapon in a crowded area, delivered all shots without injury to innocents, and removed the ability of the criminals to decide if any of the patrons of that cafe would ever see their dog again.

I have to laugh at some of these comments about shooting them as they retreat, and poor shot placement. I'm not going to armchair quarterback unless I've been in his shoes. I'd give the guy the key to the city.

I guess it was pretty ridiculous of me to call his shot placement bad. He did exactly what needed to be done and no bystanders were injured.

 

[Graham]

LOVE IT.

 

[deadhead133]

I consider armed robbery a threat too, and while they were in the shop brandishing weapons, they were fair game. I thought I made that clear. If they are running away like scared children, the threat has stopped, and self defense shooting is not justified (IMHO). Regarding your last statement, I don't consider myself in the role of judge and jury, and it's not up to me to enact retribution or revenge. Just protection. It's not up to me to set them straight.

If that constitutes an outing, so be it.

You should move to Massachusetts and run for office. You would fit right in!

 

[Tape Measure Pickle Wheel]

IMO a criminal becomes the most dangerous when you start shooting at him, because now he has 2 options... get away or continue to be shot at.

So does a threat cease to be a threat when he's running away? Hell no.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So no, the .380 is not a "useless" round.

The 380 you have with you beats the fotay you left at home because it was too big or you didn't feel like wearing you 511 tacticool IDPA concealement vest.

 

[n1bsbri]

IMO a criminal becomes the most dangerous when you start shooting at him, because now he has 2 options... get away or continue to be shot at.

So does a threat cease to be a threat when he's running away? Hell no.

I don't think just about any court in the US would agree with that. I hope none of us have to find out.

 

[Sweeney]

I don't think just about any court in the US would agree with that. I hope none of us have to find out.

See, you seem to be stuck looking at from a 'legal' standpoint where most of us are looking at it from a common sense/ right thing to do standpoint... very different...

 

[n1bsbri]

See, you seem to be stuck looking at from a 'legal' standpoint where most of us are looking at it from a common sense/ right thing to do standpoint... very different...

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think shooting someone who is running away from you to be good common sense, or the right thing to do. Unless of course I reasonably believe my life (or that of someone nearby) is in imminent danger.

As far as the legal aspect, I value my life outside of prison. I'm not about to give that up and in addition bankrupt my family's future to teach a couple of douchebags a lesson. It's just not worth it to me. You may feel differently.

Mas Ayoob speaks about this topic in his book "In the Gravest Extreme", especially chapter 12. Repeatedly in the book, he warns against shooting anyone running, or chasing a fleeing BG. Some think of him as a gun-hating pussy I'm sure, but I think he has some credibility.

ETA: My posts are starting to repeat themselves. I think I explained my position pretty clearly. If you don't agree, or think that makes me a candidate for office in MA , you are entitled to your opinion. I won't be responding unless we uncover some new ground. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Martlet]

Well, for what it's worth, I don't think shooting someone who is running away from you to be good common sense, or the right thing to do. Unless of course I reasonably believe my life (or that of someone nearby) is in imminent danger.

As far as the legal aspect, I value my life outside of prison. I'm not about to give that up and in addition bankrupt my family's future to teach a couple of douchebags a lesson. It's just not worth it to me. You may feel differently.

Mas Ayoob speaks about this topic in his book "In the Gravest Extreme", especially chapter 12. Repeatedly in the book, he warns against shooting anyone running, or chasing a fleeing BG. Some think of him as a gun-hating pussy I'm sure, but I think he has some credibility.

ETA: My posts are starting to repeat themselves. I think I explained my position pretty clearly. If you don't agree, or think that makes me a candidate for office in MA , you are entitled to your opinion. I won't be responding unless we uncover some new ground. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Remove the legality of it and it's absolutely the right thing to do. We'd have far less crime in this world if we removed the criminals.

 

[NHAtHeart]

He stopped at the door, removed the threat from the immediate area and convinced them not to return. As far as I'm concerned it was a good shoot.

 

[Palladin]

He fired two rounds when the perp turned back to face him. If he had been in Mass, shooting while they were fleeing, he'd be locked up. But thank Christ he was in Florida, a normal State!

Kudos to the man!!

 

[Bob P]

That is ****ing awesome.

 

[Nitro]

Is that a NH thing, shooting people who aren't threatening you? I didn't know.

Sorry, as long as theres a gun in his hand he's a threat!.

 

[Racenet]

Mas Ayoob speaks about this topic in his book "In the Gravest Extreme", especially chapter 12. Repeatedly in the book, he warns against shooting anyone running, or chasing a fleeing BG. Some think of him as a gun-hating pussy I'm sure, but I think he has some credibility.

This explains a lot.