OH NOES! ITS A NOTHER BULLET! LOCK IT DOWN!

[Admin]

Don't speak to me of the "good ol' days" cuz all that means to me is that I wouldn't have been able to vote and would be open to getting legally lynched at any given time....yeah, those days were real good for me and mine. As in all things, its a matter of perspective, and when you can seriously say that a bullet found in a school in 2007 America, the home of the school shooting, the birthplace of the gangster flick, the most armed country in the world, is no cause for concern then you have lost any and all perspective you may have once had, my friends.

MB,

What does race have to do with anything about this? The Jews were slaughtered 70 years ago, I don't see that card coming out.

How your parents raised you has everything to do with it. If you were raised to respect firearms you will raise your kids to respect firearms. If you were raised where guns and ammo were always locked up and you weren't taught proper firearm safety, chances are you're going to raise your children to be ignorant of firearm safety as well.

When society starts to depend on laws and bans to dictate how our family's behave on a daily basis the battle has been lost.

 

[Neptune Cat]

THIS IS 2007, NOT 1957. How your parents raised you means less than squat, it's a different world, a different country, a new day. They say in nature you adapt or die, so start adapting. They didn't have school shootings and the near plague levels of youthful violent offenders back then. There weren't as many guns on the street back then. There wasn't as much bulit up stress in so many sectors of society as there is now. People weren't walking into McDonalds or the Post Office and blowing everybody in sight away. I'm all for gun rights, but I don't have my head so far up the ass of the issue that I can't see how society has changed, and how our attitudes about certain things have to change with it. Don't speak to me of the "good ol' days" cuz all that means to me is that I wouldn't have been able to vote and would be open to getting legally lynched at any given time....yeah, those days were real good for me and mine. As in all things, its a matter of perspective, and when you can seriously say that a bullet found in a school in 2007 America, the home of the school shooting, the birthplace of the gangster flick, the most armed country in the world, is no cause for concern then you have lost any and all perspective you may have once had, my friends.

I understand your points and appreciate them. I just want to state, for the record, I grew up in the 80's. I feel like my Sister and I were of the last generation to grow up, before discipline became a bad thing.

As you said, I was raised differently from todays youth. I actually believe that many parents today are being further raised by thier children. The children run the households today. Legislation won't fix that unfortunatly. But, I'm of the opinion that legislation won't fix anything.

 

[Pilgrim]

by Major Blood:As for the emmigration issue, there are tons of people who would emigrate from this country to experience the reality of what America has promised for so long.

Where is that? I don't see it anywhere in the world that I've been.

 

[Admin]

And what if there is? We don't exclude anyone and I'm enjoying the debate.

+1 it is a good debate. I am glad Major Blood is going back and forth tactfully on this. It's good for the brain.

 

[sksguns]

its getting a little repetative.....I guess I won't read anymore in this thread.

 

[sellscottsell]

This thread has me worried... I'm sure it's just a matter of time before a used primer gets stuck in my kid's sneakers and I get a call from the Principal's office!

Tragically that will be considered a shoe bomb and your kid will unfortunately be sent to Gitmo! A shoe bomb falls under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security.

 

[icyclefar]

Call me simple .............. anyone in posession of a firearm I deem smart enough (or evil enough as the case may be) to keep their ammo in the weapon, or secured well enough to be available later on ...........

A random loose round on the floor, or a shell casing should not be cause for panic.

O.K. ........... my odd shell casing story.

Spent a few hours at the range throwing 45's through paper targets, cleaned up my mess, packed my bag, and headed home.

Decided to stop at Starbucks for a coffee, when I unzipped the coat to get at my wallet a few 45 casings fell to the floor. As I bent down to pick them up, I noticed the women behind me in line was noticably bothered, I scooped them up promptly. Grabbed my coffee, headed for the door, as I passed the trash I was going to toss the couple of casings in there ............ then this little voice in my head said "DON'T DO THAT", placed them in my pocket and off I went. So the question I have is ............... am I part Liberal?

 

[Len-2A Training]

MB,

Yes the "world is different" today. Certainly not better though.

Parents are threatened with DSS taking their kids and facing charges if they discipline their kids . . . so they don't for fear of the system.

Whereas in the past, teachers would break up fights, contact parents, suspension/detention and that would be it. Today, they call the media, counselors, the police when a kid throws a temper tantrum . . . the kid gets cuffed and stuffed, charged with some heinous crime that will haunt that kid for life. I wonder if they make "kid-sized handcuffs" yet!

Just realize that when shit happens, someone will be thrown under the bus, the town/school/teacher will be sued. It is only a matter of "degree" (on how badly they will be screwed) whether a teacher calls SWAT when they find a knife missing in the cafeteria, or handles it internally.

What we need to do is swing the pendulum back closer to where it was in the '50s where discipline was owned by the parents, not by the police/judges/DSS. I can't argue with your point on where we are today, only that it IS NOT WORKING and we really need to change it.

 

[Major Blood]

No liberal here, not that I'm particularly opposed to them.

No, I'm first and foremost a man, and secondly an American, and it is those two things, and those only, that shape what comes out of my mouth and the actions I take. I don't really go for the "club" mentality...when you have a club, you have a leader, and as power always eventually corrupts, you end up following leaders that have long since abandoned what made you want them to represent you in the first place, as can be clearly evidenced by taking a look around lately.

More good points Derek, and again, I know that laws aren't going to make people safe. But I don't think keeping guns and ammo locked up AND teaching your kids about the dangers of firearms are mutually exclusive. I do both, but again, what I teach my kids has no bearing on what others do, or don't, teach their kids. Just because you teach your teenagers not to drink and drive doesn't mean they're not going to get hit by a drunk driver. People are saying this was no big deal because it was just a bullet and no gun...that's like saying drunk driving is no big deal if there's no traffic. The thing about enforcing a law is sometimes it may not make sense to apply it, but you apply it anyways because it's the Law and the alternative is chaos. If a trooper sees someone swerving on a deserted road, does he pull him over and make the collar or let him go? I mean, there's no traffic, he won't hurt anyone but himself, and the law shouldn't extend into what one does to himself, right? Do you see where I'm going with this? Trust me, I'm on board with just about everything you're saying, I know how backwards it is to try to solve a problem with legislature like these idiot politicians seem to enjoy doing, but this case isn't even that deep man. As gunowners, the outrage here should be directed at the parents of the kids who brought those rounds into the school in the first place, which only hurts US, and not with the poor guy just trying to cover his ass.

And it's not about teaching them to be fearful of everything, but to be respectful. And a kid bringing a bullet to school is not showing the proper respect, for himself, his classmates, or his dad's 2nd Amendment rights. I mean, if it were your son would you be patting him on the back when he got home like "Good job son! That's how you show those gun-grabbers!" or would you beat an inch of skin off of his ass for doing something so stupid? I know what I would have gotten as a kid, but today's kids? I don't know...

As for the race card, I wasn't pulling it...I said that to illustrate how much our society can and will change, and that referencing how things used to be doesn't always point the way to how things should be now. But since you mention it, last I heard Germany made a formal apology to the Jews and went about the process of redistributing stolen property, land and other spoils of the war years ago...

 

[Len-2A Training]

But since you mention it, last I heard Germany made a formal apology to the Jews and went about the process of redistributing stolen property, land and other spoils of the war years ago...

Made a good news story, but that's about it. Plenty of our families were decimated, and nobody in the lineage got anything back or any reparations, nor will they ever get them. Lots of reasons for this but primarily the Germans waited long enough for most to die off and the remaining families of the survivors don't have the knowledge of who/what/where to even make a claim. I had this discussion at Yad Vashem (with the researchers who try to find the family info) during my last trip to Israel in 2000.

http://www.yadvashem.org/
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/index_about_yad.html - Info on researching families and what happened to them.

 

[Admin]

As for the race card, I wasn't pulling it...I said that to illustrate how much our society can and will change, and that referencing how things used to be doesn't always point the way to how things should be now

I hear you.

 

[Major Blood]

Made a good news story, but that's about it. Plenty of our families were decimated, and nobody in the lineage got anything back or any reparations, nor will they ever get them. Lots of reasons for this but primarily the Germans waited long enough for most to die off and the remaining families of the survivors don't have the knowledge of who/what/where to even make a claim. I had this discussion at Yad Vashem (with the researchers who try to find the family info) during my last trip to Israel in 2000.

http://www.yadvashem.org/
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/index_about_yad.html - Info on researching families and what happened to them.

Oh I know LenS, point well taken. But at least the APPEARANCE of an effort was made, ya know? Sometimes a gesture, even if only half-sincere and ineffectual, can make a difference. Kinda like that a**h*** roommate that drinks your twelve pack and you don't want it back you just want the jerk to admit he did it like a man and stop acting as if the now beer-less state of the bachelor pad somehow got that way on its own...him not bitching about pitching in with me for the next one would be a nice bonus, but not an expected one...lol

 

[drgrant]

By foaming at the mouth every time there is any action regarding firearms that you don't like, you're only proving their point that most gun-owners are a bunch of ignorant, belligerent yahoos.

So we're ignorant because we don't think that there should be a law
controlling ammunition?

This is where we differ- you seem to belong to that segment of society
that has the "objects are evil" fetish- eg, somehow guns are more dangerous
than other things that can kill people.... and somehow, a gun death is more
violent than someone getting stabbed 48 times. That's what this mindset
is... and instead of working to change it, you're endorsing it.

Everything isn't black and white all the time, sometimes you have to find victory in the gray area. I really don't think the safe containment law, which has NO effect on how we enjoy our shooting sports/hobbies, is a battle worth losing the gun control war over. People speak of slippery slopes, well when a bullet is found in a school, where does the slope slide from there?

Safe storage laws have a lot of effect on what we do. A man lost his
LTC because he had a heart attack while cleaning his guns. Cops EMS
came and cops citied him for safe storage violation because when
they showed up his guns were out of the safe. This is the kind of shit
that "feel good" laws leads to.

Basically, MA is "that road to hell" that got paved with good intentions
as far as gun laws go.

And further, gun ownership isn't a mere "sport/hobby" it's a constitutional
right. (or at least it is to me and a bunch of other people here) maybe for
you its some sundry thing you do when your're bored, but to many people
it's a lot more than that.

Judging from the replies, I take it nobody would have taken the same action at the school so I ask once again: Had it been your call, what would you have done?

It depends on the context of the discovery. If I found a pistol
magazine fully loaded with ammo then MAYBE I'd be more likely to do
something significant. Every situation is likely different.

And in the event that a shooting followed, what then?

I have no idea... that's why I'm not a school administrator.

I just take issue with people who think we should shit ourselves with
fear every time someone finds a cartridge someplace.

I want to go home with you when you explain to your wife and kids that daddy lost his job today fighting for a pointless principle with no weight...

A bunch of people kept saying that, and that's why we have the
deteriorated state of rights that we have now. "I really didn't need
those rights anyways, so I'll gladly surrender them to the government."

how, even though he'd never want to actually do it, that the possibility that he MIGHT one day want to leave live ammunition strewn about the family house was more important than groceries or heat this month.

I take bigger issue with the fact that someone thinks it's a good idea
to have a law prohibiting it, because such regulation is a clear infringement
of rights and is a means of incrementally stripping them away.

Using your logic parents should be forced (by law) to lock their car keys in a
biometric safe, because one of their kids -MIGHT- steal the car and
kill someone with it. After that gets approved, all parents must breathe
into a tube every time they start a car, even if they've never had a drop
of alcohol in their life.

Start thinking about the possible end-game repercussions of what you are
suggesting and maybe it will dawn on you.

Again, ideals are great for online forums, but when your job is on the line, you're going to cover your ass just like everybody else.

Maybe. Depends on the circumstances. And in the event of a school
shooting, I don't think any amount of ass covering is going to make the
school/admin immune from liability.

Further, a lot of things have deterioriated in this country simply because
people thought that just tossing their ideals to the wind was a good idea.

And on another note, I know this might be hard to grasp, but listen close...

THIS IS 2007, NOT 1957. How your parents raised you means less than squat, it's a different world, a different country, a new day.

That doesn't mean a lot of what goes on today is RIGHT, by any
stretch of the imagination. I am an eternal pragmatist, so I know
what you're getting at- eg, going with the herd is sometimes the best
thing to do even if it isn't the "right" one... but just because something
is dumb and happens all the time doesn't mean it should always be
tolerated.

As in all things, its a matter of perspective, and when you can seriously say that a bullet found in a school in 2007 America, the home of the school shooting, the birthplace of the gangster flick, the most armed country in the world, is no cause for concern then you have lost any and all perspective you may have once had, my friends.

It might be "alarming" to some, but you have still failed- to tell me what
people pissing their pants over finding a stray cartridge, is going to
accomplish. This isn't like finding a case of dynamite in a student's
locker or something, or a propane canister with a clock on it. Hell, I
think even a bomb threat has more credibility to it than a stray cartridge
found in a bathroom.

My perspective is the way it is because I hate the fact that as a nation
we have become obsessed with focusing on things that really don't mean/do
anything.... everywhere there are people lining up to trade their freedom for
a little so called "security"... and that path is a very dangerous one to
take. And it is even worse when the "security" that people are clamoring
for is not even real security. The people in this country are selling their
souls out for political correctness and socialism and getting NOTHING in
return.

-Mike

 

[Scrivener]

Clarification

by Major Blood:As for the emmigration issue, there are tons of people who would emigrate from this country to experience the reality of what America has promised for so long.

I'm confused - how does one "emigrate FROM this country to experience the reality of what America has promised for so long?" Is EuroDisney now the cultural repository of "what America has promised?"

And what, exactly, was found at the school? Given the glaring inability of many on this forum, never mind the media, to distinguish between a bullet, a cartridge and a case ("casings" are what sausages are made with), it is not clear just what triggered this ballistic crisis.

IF what was found was a mere bullet or case, the crisis was entirely imaginary. Each is utterly inert and no more lethal than a bolt or screw from the shop classes or janitor's closet. A Bic stick pen is far more deadly a weapon.

If an actual cartridge was found, an evacuation would be rationalized, if not truly justified, by the inference that said round indicated more of same and the guns from which to fire them. At the very least, a full search would be warranted.

I, too, wore a multi-blade knife as part of my Boy Scout uniform in grade school and even brought a .22 rifle, complete w/blank ammo, to high school - on the BUS, no less - for about 2 weeks, without any incident. I then FIRED the gun on stage, several times, in an auditorium full of fellow students as part of a school play. No SWAT team was called.

However, that was then and this is now. After Columbine, etc., and with the sea-change in public opinion regarding firearms since the late '60's, what many of us experienced as accepted behaviour is long gone. The schools are filled with invertebrates who don't lead and barely "administer." They blindly enforce inflexible policies like "Zero Tolerance" to appease ignorant, Chicken-Little parents and the school boards those parents elected.

Concepts such as responsibility, self-reliance, education and achievement are gone; we have "empowerment" and "affirmation" by NON-achievement (scoreless "sports" and the elimination of the Honors List) to accommodate spoiled, self-absorbed, clueless kids and the cretins who spawned them.

Not that I have an opinion on the subject...........

 

[TomH]

Using your logic parents should be forced (by law) to lock their car keys in a biometric safe, because one of their kids -MIGHT- steal the car and
kill someone with it.

Yes, and the keys couldn't just be carried loosely in a pocket, they'd have to be secured to your body with a lock of some type. And a car is just as dangerous if not more dangerous than a gun in a schoolyard environment, but if there was a law to lock the keys up people would be outraged! Yet that law would be keeping MORE people safe than any safe ammo storage law there is.

-Tom

 

[Scrivener]

Using your logic parents should be forced (by law) to lock their car keys in a biometric safe, because one of their kids -MIGHT- steal the car and
kill someone with it.

Done. Repeatedly and recently.

There was one case in the news last week. And wasn't it just 2 years ago a kid in Foxboro snuck out, filled Mommy's land yacht with his friends and killed one of them driving INTO a granite post on Foxboro Common?

 

[TomH]

But is there actually a law encompassing all car keys having to be locked up all the time? I doubt it, and there shouldn't be. There has to be a line somewhere between the sane and the insane. Obviously if I was a parent (well maybe not obvious to all) I wouldn't leave my keys out where they could get to them if I thought they would be irresponsible enough to use them. The keys were always on the keyrack at my house, with 3 of us being kids in the house, and there was never a problem. Why? Because if we ever got the idea to actually start one of the cars up ourselves there'd be hell to pay.

-Tom

 

[Lynne]

drgrant - have I mentioned lately that I love you?

 

[drgrant]

drgrant - have I mentioned lately that I love you?

Aww, thanks Lynne.

-Mike

 

[Bigtitan33]

MB,

Yes the "world is different" today. Certainly not better though.

Parents are threatened with DSS taking their kids and facing charges if they discipline their kids . . . so they don't for fear of the system.

Whereas in the past, teachers would break up fights, contact parents, suspension/detention and that would be it. Today, they call the media, counselors, the police when a kid throws a temper tantrum . . . the kid gets cuffed and stuffed, charged with some heinous crime that will haunt that kid for life. I wonder if they make "kid-sized handcuffs" yet!

Just realize that when shit happens, someone will be thrown under the bus, the town/school/teacher will be sued. It is only a matter of "degree" (on how badly they will be screwed) whether a teacher calls SWAT when they find a knife missing in the cafeteria, or handles it internally.

What we need to do is swing the pendulum back closer to where it was in the '50s where discipline was owned by the parents, not by the police/judges/DSS. I can't argue with your point on where we are today, only that it IS NOT WORKING and we really need to change it.

I agree with most of what you stated. Teachers and schools are being forced to publicly cover their asses to avoid problems instead of quietly dealing with minor situations. I see it everyday here in Springfield.
And I agree that the big bad system has led to a lot of fear regarding discipling children, however, I also think that many people use that as an excuse for piss poor parenting. You have a right to discipline your kids and a duty to teach them right from wrong. Allowing the fear of DSS or anything else to get in the way of parenting is ridiculous.
As vocal as people are in advocating for gun rights, voting rights, etc...I find it amazing that more people don't stand up to fight for their right to be good parents, teachers, etc...

 

[Lynne]

+1

 

[Twigg]

Responsibility, it starts at home.

I was going to say something about the lack of personal responsibility in soceity but Len said it already.

MB,

Yes the "world is different" today. Certainly not better though.

Parents are threatened with DSS taking their kids and facing charges if they discipline their kids . . . so they don't for fear of the system.

drgrant, numerous excellent points !

 

[KMaurer]

As someone who actually lived in "the old days", as opposed to simply reading stories (either fancifully good or equally fancifully bad) about them, let me throw out a couple of observations.

• While there were indeed still a few lynchings then, the numbers were a lot smaller than Bill Clinton would have you believe. Most of us listened to so many accounts of actual lynchings during the 20's and 30's that we simply assumed that they were still going on at that rate during the 50's and 60's.
• While one would never believe it from the media reporting, there we roughly the same number of school shootings then as there have been over the past 10-15 years. They just weren't major media events then, since the people who did them were correctly judged to be nothing more than criminal losers, who didn't deserve any publicity, and the mourning was for the families or local community afflicted rather than the world at large.
• Teen agers frequently carried guns to school, in their cars and on public transportation. It was no big deal, whether in rural communities or cities like NY, Chicago, Detroit or LA, because 99% of them were honest, law-abiding people.
• Kids sometimes tried to get out of tests and other school assignments by phoning in bomb threats and perpetrating similar hoaxes, usually unsiccesfully. I remember sitting in a couple of classes while one of the vice principals casually looked through all the storage cabinets at the back of the classroom. He later explained there had been a bomb threat. The schools were almost never evacuated or shut down. A few rounds of stray ammunition wouldn't have provoked the slightest response. (see above)

Maybe if school administrators started trying to use a little common sense in evaluating the risk associated with particular events and students, they'd have better results, while simultaneously avoiding making themselves laughingstocks of the nation. Maybe if society focused its efforts on teaching kids critical thinking, common sense, and accepting responsibility for one's behavior, rather than attempting to legislate every detail of human behavior, the world would be a much safer (not to mention happier) place. Unfortunately I don't hold my breath for either one to happen, since so many people have invested their entire lives in preaching helplessness, victimhood and fear. Nonetheless, don't expect me, my children or grandchildren to join the throngs who equate safety with more government control, education with learning all the rules, and happiness as mindlessly going along with the crowd.

Ken

 

[JonJ]

Maybe if school administrators started trying to use a little common sense in evaluating the risk associated with particular events and students, they'd have better results, while simultaneously avoiding making themselves laughingstocks of the nation. Maybe if society focused its efforts on teaching kids critical thinking, common sense, and accepting responsibility for one's behavior, rather than attempting to legislate every detail of human behavior, the world would be a much safer (not to mention happier) place. Unfortunately I don't hold my breath for either one to happen, since so many people have invested their entire lives in preaching helplessness, victimhood and fear. Nonetheless, don't expect me, my children or grandchildren to join the throngs who equate safety with more government control, education with learning all the rules, and happiness as mindlessly going along with the crowd.

Ken

If these things were taught, it would go against creating a society totally dependent on the government. This is against the DNC's manifesto.

 

[Bigtitan33]

As a side note, my paychecks come from the Mass Executive Office of Health and Human Services, Department of Social Services *gasp*...If anyone ever has any questions about the machine that is DSS or about discipline and what is legally defined as abuse, etc. feel free to let me know... and PLEASE don't be afraid to teach you kids to be good people!!

 

[Lugnut]

I 100% agree with Scriv's first post. Well said. Maybe I'm liberal (yeah right!!!) but I just don't see a cartridge as something to downplay in a school... sorry I just don't.

Another thing that kinda makes me nutty- just because your kids are diciplined (or they have been to this point) doesn't mean stupid accidents can't happen. Friends come over, peer pressure kicks in, the need to impress friends happens. I let my kids shoot or handle any guns they want as long of they adhere to the 3 big rules.... only under my supervision. I was a good kid, but I did some dumb ass things too. How many of you really think that by allowing your kids to have a beer here and there that they won't abuse alcohol when driving??? Kids are kids. Some adults aren't too bright either I guess but I trust my judgement over ANY kids'.

 

[Admin]

I 100% agree with Scriv's first post. Well said. Maybe I'm liberal (yeah right!!!) but I just don't see a cartridge as something to downplay in a school... sorry I just don't.

Another thing that kinda makes me nutty- just because your kids are diciplined (or they have been to this point) doesn't mean stupid accidents can't happen. Friends come over, peer pressure kicks in, the need to impress friends happens. I let my kids shoot or handle any guns they want as long of they adhere to the 3 big rules.... only under my supervision. I was a good kid, but I did some dumb ass things too. How many of you really think that by allowing your kids to have a beer here and there that they won't abuse alcohol when driving??? Kids are kids. Some adults aren't too bright either I guess but I trust my judgement over ANY kids'.

You have a valid concern about the kids Lugnut. I grew up and every other member of my family grew up around unsecured firearms and ammo. Maybe we were different than other familes, maybe not, but we respected firearms and didn't cave to peer pressure.

 

[drgrant]

I 100% agree with Scriv's first post. Well said. Maybe I'm liberal (yeah right!!!) but I just don't see a cartridge as something to downplay in a school... sorry I just don't.

Well, regardless of whatever any of us believe, I will admit that
the typical knee-jerk response from authorities is never going to
change- mainly because this type of thing is a toothpaste out of the
tube" type of problem. You can only STOP it before it happens, and if
you fail, that toothpaste ain't going back. The rampant social paranoia
between 9/11 and school attacks has most of the sheep huffing the
"security" glue fumes so hard that they're now addicts, at least in some
cases. All I know is Ben Franklin is spinning in his grave, at the speed of
a turbine at a nuclear power plant. [sad2]

Another thing that kinda makes me nutty- just because your kids are diciplined (or they have been to this point) doesn't mean stupid accidents can't happen. Friends come over, peer pressure kicks in, the need to impress friends happens.

That can happen with anything, not just firearms. "Little Johnny" can kill
himself with a bicycle just as dead as with a gun. He can steal the family
car and do stupid shit with that, too. He could set the drapes on fire
because it was fun and he got sick of people telling him not to play with
matches. Ultimately if you want your kids to be safe you need to teach/instill
values of respect and responsibility, period end. The only way to protect them
outside of doing that is to lock them in a cage or something.

I let my kids shoot or handle any guns they want as long of they adhere to the 3 big rules.... only under my supervision. I was a good kid, but I did some dumb ass things too.

Agreed, but they can do dumb, life threatening things with anything, not just guns.
I guess what the others are getting at is there was a time where
kids just had a lot more respect for themselves or other people- and the
system even enforced/endorsed those viewpoints, instead of what we have
now... which is typically either the kid getting what they want or the other
extreme, which is being put into handcuffs when they throw a spitball or
bring a pair of scissors with them to school... What the hell
ever happened to the principal yelling in your face and making you feel like
an idiot for what you did? (or any number of other punishments that didn't
involve the police or a child psychologist)

How many of you really think that by allowing your kids to have a beer here and there that they won't abuse alcohol when driving??? Kids are kids. Some adults aren't too bright either I guess but I trust my judgement over ANY kids'.

That's kind of a poor analogy. Sure, anything can happen, but if you foster
a healthy respect for (guns/booze/whatever) then the chances are a lot
better that they will be able to question their own actions. If they can't
develop those kinds of thinking abilities, then they will fail as adults.

-Mike

 

[Lugnut]

Sure, anything can happen, but if you foster
a healthy respect for (guns/booze/whatever) then the chances are a lot
better that they will be able to question their own actions. If they can't
develop those kinds of thinking abilities, then they will fail as adults.

-Mike

Mike, ironically I don't think our views are really that far off. It's just the "chance" part that I'm concerned with. Maybe I'm more untrusting of people than most... critical or skeptical might be more accurate. Certainly we all agree that we can't trust some of the adults in this society (including our politicians) nevermind growing adolesents. I guess with my kids and anyone that comes into my home I'll err with the side of caution. Am I an uptight nut job? Not really (I don't think so my wife and kids might not agree). I leave dangeous boxes of lead "things" unattended from time to time but I am comfortable with the respect my kids have for firearms.

Am I comfortable with other kids and their respect? How the heck would I know for sure? How would I know that their parent(s) didn't leave some guns and ammo around? How do I know that other parents are like us? I check on my kids' friends and make a judgement call but I dont' know all of them. It's out of my control.

Here's an example. Some parents think it's ok for their kids to have parties with booze as long as they don't drive and stay over (I'm talking under age kids!). They figure they'll just do it in college anyways. Is that the right thing? Damn, I sure as hell wouldn't want to find out after the fact that my 17 year old went to one of those parties! And yeah- I'll do my best to make sure of these things in advance.

Either way I thing we all agree that we need to do our best to raise our children with good values and common sense. I just don't want to leave anything to "chance". Or worse... when that "chance" is someone outside my family.

Damn- I need to get to one of these NES events to have some of these discussions in person... So much good dialog.

 

[Lugnut]

which is typically either the kid getting what they want or the other extreme, which is being put into handcuffs when they throw a spitball or bring a pair of scissors with them to school... What the hell ever happened to the principal yelling in your face and making you feel like an idiot for what you did? (or any number of other punishments that didn't involve the police or a child psychologist)

Yeah- this is strange I agree. It's either no discipline or extreme discipline. I for the life of me can't figure this out either.