Sweeney
NES Member
Whenever that dog is innocent and/or the human isn't. Both animals. The difference, one is inflicted with the ability to think its better.
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Officer Shot After Pointing Stun Gun at Man's Dogs
- Thread starter MA_Shooter
- Start date
Whenever that dog is innocent and/or the human isn't. Both animals. The difference, one is inflicted with the ability to think its better.
Its not murder, its self defense or defense of another.
I love my dogs as much as I love any member of my family, and treat them as such. I will defend them as far as I would defend any other member of my family, with lethal force if need be. It has nothing to do with anti-LEO, im not anti-LEO, I still intend on pursuing a career path in law enforcement but I am anti bad cop who get a free pass.
But this guy met non-lethal force with lethal force, for that I do agree he is in the wrong, but he may not have realized it was a taser being pointed at his dogs.
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Walk into my house and point a gun at something I love. You won't do it.
Edit: And by the way, there is NO such thing as non-lethal force. It's less than lethal. Which, in fact, can still kill you.
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One point that has not been amplified is that the deceased officer was pointing a taser and not a firearm at the dogs. The officer according to at least one report was in an alley behind the house and was attacked by the dogs which is a public byway. Another aspect that is not totally clear is whether the officer was responding to a domestic call at the shooter's residence, or one nearby. If a police officer is responding to a domestic or any other crime in progress, a warrant is not required.
Some gaps here in the scenario before we have a rush to judgement.
If the chief was on the scene providing back-up I am a bit surprised that he didn't engage the shooter in a firefight and attempt to take him out.
Now the shooter is in jail, and what will become the dogs' fate?
Some gaps here in the scenario before we have a rush to judgement.
If the chief was on the scene providing back-up I am a bit surprised that he didn't engage the shooter in a firefight and attempt to take him out.
Now the shooter is in jail, and what will become the dogs' fate?
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This is also where im confused, why did the chief not return fire?
fencer
NES Member
Walk into my house and point a gun at something I love. You won't do it.
Edit: And by the way, there is NO such thing as non-lethal force. It's less than lethal. Which, in fact, can still kill you.
OK, so what i see here is if you threaten my DOGS... I get to shoot you in the face.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I pretty much think that anyone who would shoot a person in the face with a shotgun for threatening a dog is an ass. I don't care if it is Lassie or Ole Yeller. But hey, if that is how you roll
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Any other criteria I should know about to avoid getting shot in the face? How bout leaning on your car? Some guys really love their cars
OK, so what i see here is if you threaten my DOGS... I get to shoot you in the face.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I pretty much think that anyone who would shoot a person in the face with a shotgun for threatening a dog is an ass. I don't care if it is Lassie or Ole Yeller. But hey, if that is how you roll
Any other criteria I should know about to avoid getting shot in the face? How bout leaning on your car? Some guys really love their cars
Dont really like my current car that much, so ill let it slide.
But if I really feel your threats are serious, then yes I would protect my dogs with deadly force if necessary. Though if I feel I could incapacitate rather than kill, I would do so.
fencer
NES Member
Really? You would shoot a shoot a uniformed Police officer in the face with a shotgun for pointing a firearm at your dogs?
Like I said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
You want on my property, a warrant would be required. If it wasn't, he wouldn't have been talking to the guy. If he is talking to the guy about coming on or through his property, and threatening his dogs, then he obviously didn't feel he had some "Right" to be there. I don't care if someone is being gangraped next door, go next door, don't expect me to let you on my property without a legal reason. Trespassing, then threatening wound up with him dead. I'm sorry you are so willing to just let the cops do whatever they want, and come up with a reason later why it was legal, If they don't prove it first, i'm right there doing the same thing. every time.
namedpipes
NES Member
If it develops that the officer was in the right, THEN it's murder.
If the officer was essentially invading the curmudgeon's property and was in the wrong to (try to) shoot the dogs, then whatever it is, isn't murder.
Do they try to shoot my dogs on their way through?
Palladin
NES Member
This will be interesting. If there was a call for a domestic disturbance, he's toast. If not, and the LEO's don't fudge the facts.....this could be right up there with the Black Panthers standing on corners with rifles in the late 60's...(cause they realized it was legal)
Go time.
Go time.
This will be all too common going forward.
No warrant no entry. Some people still believe in their constitutional rights, others (your elected officials ) don't, and this will be the end result.
Quick lock up the animals honey, its a foot chase.
No warrant no entry. Some people still believe in their constitutional rights, others (your elected officials ) don't, and this will be the end result.
Quick lock up the animals honey, its a foot chase.
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My bullshit meter just redlined. Did he call a time out to radio in for permission to execute the dogs *and* wait for the ok as the dogs were attacking?
Not if there is a crime in progress reported at your address (what we don't know is if he was responding to the shooter's address or someone else's address) if it was the shooter's address then your statement about the police requiring a warrant to go on your property is moot. Also if you recall, according to at least one report the man's dogs were running loose and attacking him in an alley. Alleys are generally public byways.
The biggest error one can make in a case like this is a rush to judgement.
Where did it say that the officer was threatening? Where does it say that he was trespassing? At this point we don't know the officer's location.
There are simply not enough facts.
Without sounding unkind, while I appreciate your passion, I really think you need to think about the whole situation, get as many facts as possible then come to your conclusions. The picture being painted of the shooter is to date not exactly flattering with regard to behavior. Granted even the most venal scumbag has the same rights as you or me, but let's get more facts...shall we?
You realize of course, too, that you have just posted on a public forum that you will murder anyone whom you perceive to be a trespasser on your property. Since you live in Wareham which is in Mass, and I assume you have a Mass LTC, it wouldn't take much for a dedicated police officer with a computer forensics background to figure out your identity which might immediately bring about suitability issues with regard to your license to carry. Don't assume that everyone who reads this Forum has the best of motives or your interests in mind. Just a thought...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
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It's a legitimate follow up to your open question.
Then I doubt any reasonable person would shoot anyone, particularly a cop chasing a BG, simply for running across their property.
Hey Um Chief theres a couple of dogs like attacking me is it ok to shoot em cuase i think they might bite me ?
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OK, so what i see here is if you threaten my DOGS... I get to shoot you in the face.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I pretty much think that anyone who would shoot a person in the face with a shotgun for threatening a dog is an ass. I don't care if it is Lassie or Ole Yeller. But hey, if that is how you roll
Any other criteria I should know about to avoid getting shot in the face? How bout leaning on your car? Some guys really love their cars
Let me rephrase for you: Walk into my house and point a gun/taser/threaten with deadly force at something, living, which I love. Does that make more sense to you? Yes, if you threaten my dogs with an instrument of force why wouldn't I get to "shoot you in the face" as you so aptly put it? I'm an American, so that means I tend care for my pets and treat them just like family.
If you think a cop pointing a weapon at a living, breathing animal is ok and then make a asinine comparison involving my assumed use of deadly force against a guy leaning on my car who's trying to prove what here? What else wouldn't you mind having a weapon pointed for no reason? Whatever. I'm done with this thread. It's like trying to argue with an amoeba.
OfficerObie59
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I find great irony in the fact so many preach about how the cops should abide by the law while at the same time preaching they're above the law by using lethal force to protect property. Both are illegal under our societys' laws, and neither should be relished or endorsed. If you don't like that, the democratic process is available for you to change it.
Listen, I love dogs more than I like most people. No question about it. But they're property under our laws and have never been otherwise in the history of the common law. Frankly, I'm fearful of a society that values the life of my dog over the life over my worst human enemy, because that's truly when the rights of the people become subserviant to something else.
Listen, I love dogs more than I like most people. No question about it. But they're property under our laws and have never been otherwise in the history of the common law. Frankly, I'm fearful of a society that values the life of my dog over the life over my worst human enemy, because that's truly when the rights of the people become subserviant to something else.
OfficerObie59
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Why wouldn't you get to "shoot you in the face"? Because of your own distiction: "I tend care for my pets and treat them just like family". By your own implicit admission, they aren't truly family, only like family. They don't walk on two legs and they don't have 23 sets of chromosomes. You aren't related by blood to your cat or dog. And that's the difference.
Your love for your pets, however legitiamate and true it might be, does not elevate your right to defend that animal in anyway you so choose from human threats--as much as every fiber of your being tells you otherwise, which is coincidentally the difference between humans and pets. We're capable (well, maybe with the exception of this thread) of rational thought.
namedpipes
NES Member
It is NOT illegal to use lethal force to protect property under our societys' law. It is illegal to use lethal force to protect property under Massachusetts law.
You are really making a moral judgement on others. YOU don't have the right to pass judgement on others, on the basis of morality / ethics.
As an officer of the law, you DO have the role of enforcing the laws of this state, but that's a whole nuther matter, and one that does not necessarily cross state lines.
You can FEEL however you like, but remember: "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to a better understanding of ourselves." -Carl Jung
fencer
NES Member
How about your cat? Is it ok to shoot a cop who threatens your cat? My kids have turtle, how about the turtle? Shoot someone over your turtle? Yep, it makes sense to me.
I am an American too. Even served right out of high school and have always owned a dog. My point was about common sense. Does that make sense to you? You put the life of a dog at the same or greater value as a human being.
I understand your point. No one is advocating unlawful search or allowing unmitigated use of force by the police but you seem to not understand mine. Just because a cop makes a mistake, it is not an excuse to shoot him.
But just to make sure I don't make any more asinine comparisons, could you please post a list, excluding people of course, of all the animals that you think are worth shooting someone over? I'd hate to look at your cow the wrong way and be digging buckshot out of my behind. How about my lawn? I tend and care for my lawn and it is alive? Can I shoot you for messing with my lawn? I know someone with a pot bellied pig. How about tasty pets?
Where did I say that a cop pointing a gun at a living, breathing animal was ok? I just said you shouldn't shoot him if he does. You know, common sense. Something that single cell animals do not posess, so you are right, it is like arguing with an amoeba.
But don't go away!!! I want to know what else you think is worth shooting someone for. I want to add my wide screen and coffee maker to the list. I know they are not living but if you mess with them I will take you out.
xtry51
NES Member
Try remembering most of the country is not like MA and it is perfectly acceptable by society to use lethal force to protect property. In fact there are many states where it's perfectly legal to protect OTHER PEOPLE'S property with deadly force.
There's not enough info on this yet. If the DD call was in fact not for that address, then I say it's a tragedy, but a good shoot regardless of whether you think he's a stand up guy. If the call was for the address then the shooter is at fault.
There are so many things that don't make sense:
1) If the call wasn't for that address, why was the officer trespassing?
2) If the officer was being attacked by MULTIPLE DOGS, he:
a) Shouldn't call the chief to make a decision on what to do
b) Not use a taser since you can only taser one dog at a time and it's doubtful the second dog is smart enough to know he buddy is getting tased
3) What kind of dogs are we talking about? We've see plenty of cops shoot dogs the size of cats for no reason.
4) Why the hell would the chief not return fire on the shooter???? This is the biggest flag. I don't know any instance where a cop would not return fire on a party who just shot a cop in the head.
I need more info.
Oh, and I would definitely shoot someone who threatened my pets. My pets are part of my family.
xtry51
NES Member
If you're on my property and I tell you to leave and you don't, be ready to get shot.
Is that a complete enough explanation? If you're trespassing and being a dick f'ing with stuff that's not yours, be ready to get shot. It amazes me how people in MA seem to think that they can f with people and it's just ok. Not everywhere in the country is like where you live, in fact most of it is VERY different. Do yourself a favor and don't be a dick when you're not in MA/CT/RI/NY/NJ. Most of the remaining country will remind you very unkindly that you'll get what's coming to you.
xtry51
NES Member
We're working on it
I think we're good for at least another 200 posts as more details emerge and we start discussing shooting to wound more in depth.
fencer
NES Member
Really Einstein? What part of the country is it legal to shoot a uniformed LEO for trespassing?
I have lived in North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia and don't remember the shoot a cop on your property statutes. Maybe you can add to the list of reasons it's ok to shoot a cop.
What the hell is wrong with you people? You don't shoot a MAN for threatening your dog with a stun gun. Period. It does not matter if you live in Mass, Penn or even CT. He was a man with kids and if you would shoot him for TASING your dog you are an a**h*** and deserve to rot in jail for the rest of your days. If you are willing to let some little kid grow up without a father because someone trespassed on your property while doing his job, you are an a**h*** and deserve to rot in jail.
Even if he was there illegally. You can jump up and down and talk all about your rights, but at the end of the day, you know that shooting that cop was wrong and the fact that you would defend it says way more about you than you intended
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