Officer Shot After Pointing Stun Gun at Man's Dogs

MA_Shooter said:
Some more information about the officer and shooter:

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/joe-owens/index.ssf/2011/08/freemansburg_police_officer_ro.html

http://www.fugitive.com/2011/08/13/...-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-watch-video-here/

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Fallen-Cop-Arrested-Accused-Killer-127584218.html
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This is potential "spinning beyond recognition" in my opinion. Even if the guy was a scumbag no one liked, I would judge this specific situation on its own merits. I don't think we have enough information to do that, especially since they have obviously begun demonizing the shooter, or at least pointing out how he did that himself.
 
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First, it is sad that the police officer is dead and that he left a family to morn him. His death was tragic and unnecessary.

We do not know all the details. But, if the report is accurate, the chief ordered the officer to shoot the dogs after the homeowner asked the police to respect the man’s private property. The chief was wrong to order the officer to shoot the dogs and the chief should be awarded appropriate punishment… punishment appropriate for sending an officer to his death based on little reason. Fat chance of that happening.

So the homeowner was a pain in the ass to his neighbors and the police. Does that mean that he loses his rights? I think not. The cops were not going to his home but were trespassing to get to the home behind his home. The cop was trespassing. That is not a reason to shoot him, but the cop was trespassing.

If I had to make a judgment based solely on the news report, my thoughts would best be surmised by our current president, “The police acted stupidly.” Especially the chief.

I know that a lot of people say that they would shoot a police officer if that officer went to shoot their pet. But I am not sure that I could do that. I would do my best to control the dogs and get them to safety. I would also, like this man did, demand that the officers follow the law and stay off my property unless they jump through all legal hoops necessary for unwanted entry… hoops that are in place for reasons. But if that didn’t work and when suddenly placed in the time of extreme stress, there is no telling what a person, including me, might do when confronted by a pet – a loved one – about to be unjustifiably shot. Would I shoot? Honestly, I do not know. I would like to think that I could get a handle on the situation… if the police would let me. But until placed in that situation, I just don’t know.

All that said, the investigation will conclude that the police did nothing wrong (already the machine is spinning up). Investigators will conclude that the police had every right to violate this man’s property. They will state that the shooting was unjustified. And, if justice reaches its normal conclusion, the man will be incarcerated for the remainder of his natural life (the spin machine is already up and running as we all now know that the man was hated by his neighbors and a pain in the ass to the cops).

There are no winners in this case.
 
CJKarl said:
Exactly,
Let's say your adult daughter makes a bad choice and moves in with some unstable moron. The guy has been know to hit her. She calls because she is concerned about her safety. Cops come, can't investigate without a warrant. They leave. The boyfriend then kills your daughter for ratting him out again.
Then what?
Happens every day.
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Freedom can be dangerous. I'll take my chances.
 
rchap36 said:
Cops must follow orders
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I've read this thread up until this point. Have you ever heard of an unlawful order? No, they don't have to follow every order that comes down the pipe. The military is subject to the same. I'm not going to assault a machine gun nest by myself just because someone tells me too.

I will commend the homeowners actions and say good on him. You can roll over and let your masters do what they want, when they want. I don't care if you point your gun at my fish tank, you're a dead man.

Furthermore, I would like to know what constitutes an attacking dog from this incident. Is standing next to the homeowner and barking at a giant black object (in the dogs eye's) one of them?
 
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But I thought Texas was practically the only state where you can shoot someone for trespassing? And I figured on any 911 call they wouldn't need a warrant to go on the property. Think, if this was true, every time a cop showed up at anyone's door they would all say let me see a warrant or go away. Almost nothing would get accomplished if things work that way. And shooting a cop for pointing a TASER at a dog doesn't justify murdering the officer.


Does this guy actually have a chance of not being convicted of murder?
 
NHAtHeart said:
Just following orders is never an excuse to destroy somebodies property (dogs) or to kill their family member (again some people see their dogs as family). The cop failed to heed the guys warning and now he's dead to show for it. He should have left and come back with a warrant if there were sufficient evidence.
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It said there was a "domestic disturbance" whatever that means.

If some lady called 911 saying she was getting beaten up by her husband there, and the cops didn't check on her after being
summoned, and they waited to "come back with a warrant" and she got killed or injured, they'd be getting sued for that, too. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I guess what it comes down to is whether or not police should have power in exigent circumstances or not, and to what degree... it's obvious at one end of the spectrum it can be abused. Someone can easily make a fake police report of a rape or whatever and more or less get the cops to "force" their way into someone's property when it's not justified.

In this case given the property owner's history I'm going to give the cops the benefit of the doubt. The guy that shot the cop is a known public saucer and it would appear his elevator doesn't go up to the top, either.

ETA: we'll see what happens I guess if more details come out. I think one problem in this case is it is going to be
very difficult to determine what actually happened, particularly considering that one of the best witnesses is dead.

-Mike
 
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SineMetu82 said:
Since when is a dogs life worth more than a human beings?(cop or not)

You don't murder someone over a dog.
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What do you defend? Your home? Your kids? Your parents? They're old anyway they aren't worth as much as a productive law enforcement officer. Hell if your kids are still in school they aren't worth a police officers life either. Your home? Well if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't mind being subject to random searches.

If we're going to allow an officer to shoot two dogs in the process of doing a welfare check, what else will we allow them to do? It's not about the dogs it's about the fact the officer was willing to destroy a man's property and quite frankly his friends over a welfare check which may or may not have actually been at the man's house (it isn't clear if they were responding to a property near this guys or to his actual property).

Cop should have backed off, regrouped and if they needed to deal with this guy stay on site, get backup and proceed from there.
 
drgrant said:
It said there was a "domestic disturbance" whatever that means.

If some lady called 911 saying she was getting beaten up by her husband there, and the cops didn't check on her after being
summoned, and they waited to "come back with a warrant" and she got killed or injured, they'd be getting sued for that, too. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I guess what it comes down to is whether or not police should have power in exigent circumstances or not, and to what degree... it's obvious at one end of the spectrum it can be abused. Someone can easily make a fake police report of a rape or whatever and more or less get the cops to "force" their way into someone's property when it's not justified.

In this case given the property owner's history I'm going to give the cops the benefit of the doubt. The guy that shot the cop is a known public saucer and it would appear his elevator doesn't go up to the top, either.

ETA: we'll see what happens I guess if more details come out. I think one problem in this case is it is going to be
very difficult to determine what actually happened, particularly considering that one of the best witnesses is dead.

-Mike
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And the only other "witness" is the chief who yelled or radio'd to the officer to shoot the dogs. The guy doesn't sound like an upstanding citizen by any means but I'm more concerned with the fact nobody is saying what the "domestic disturbance" was, some articles make it sound like it wasn't even at his house but the one behind it. Just seems like the whole killing a guys dogs and busting down his door over a phone call is pretty rotten protocol. I don't have a better solution other than back away try to keep the guy outside talking (if he is the "suspect") get backup there and try to figure out what was going on at a safe distance.
 
[/QUOTE[ There's a DEAD police officer here leaving behind a young family while trying to do his job. He may have been a straight-up cop who loves shooting as much as the rest of us. Yet some of you seem to be praising the SHOOTER'S actions.

[/QUOTE]

Fixed it for ya: Let's not call the man a murderer, let's let the courts decide that.
 
I'm sure Rachel Maddow and the Southern Poverty Law Center are ecstatic. Fits right into their "domestic terrorists are everywhere" fear campaign.
 
NHAtHeart said:
What do you defend? Your home? Your kids? Your parents? They're old anyway they aren't worth as much as a productive law enforcement officer. Hell if your kids are still in school they aren't worth a police officers life either. Your home? Well if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't mind being subject to random searches.
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You defend what you're willing to give your life for.
 
many people have more love and respect for their animals than other people, period.. This whole thing sucks...I want to know why the officer did not see the shotgun ?
Maybe this officer was distracted by the dogs and chief barking and yelling.
As far as the tazer goes....have you seen some of the newer ones, look like some crazy tactical glock. I dont know the type the LEO was useing.
 
CTsupra said:
I've read this thread up until this point. Have you ever heard of an unlawful order? No, they don't have to follow every order that comes down the pipe. The military is subject to the same. I'm not going to assault a machine gun nest by myself just because someone tells me too.

I will commend the homeowners actions and say good on him. You can roll over and let your masters do what they want, when they want. I don't care if you point your gun at my fish tank, you're a dead man.

Furthermore, I would like to know what constitutes an attacking dog from this incident. Is standing next to the homeowner and barking at a giant black object (in the dogs eye's) one of them?
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This is BS.

SineMetu82 said:
Since when is a dogs life worth more than a human beings?(cop or not)

You don't murder someone over a dog.
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This is correct. It may be an unpopular view on this forum, but what the heck happened to common sense? It is not ok to shoot a man over a couple of dogs, LEO or not.

You guys crack me up. Cop responds to a DV call and all the scumbag has to do is sick his dogs on him and the cop is supposed to go away, come back later with animal control? I wonder what some of you would do in the same situation.

Come on people. You get so wrapped up in the anti LEO thing that you let common sense fly out the window. The cops mistake was he should have shot the guy with the gun first.
 
The question is why does the cop feel he can just come onto someone's property, and threaten him and his other property (Dogs) based on nothing more than a phone call (If that much). Its simple for me, no warrant, no entry. I don't care if some moron called you and told you there is a "Domestic disturbance" at my house, it doesn't give you the right to trample my 4th amendment rights. You have proof of a crime, get a warrant and come see me.

I'd rather deal with the issues coming from FOLLOWING the constitution 100% than let them make up all sorts of rules and times where your rights don't apply. If some people are hurt in the process, or some criminals get out of being punished because of it thats unfortunate. But i'm not willing to to give up even an inch of my rights just because someone somewhere might be put out by it. Too bad.
 
Was the 911 call to that address or was the officer just using the backyard for a short cut? Someone mentioned it here but I didn't see that in the article. I also question how he just pulled a shotgun without the officer seeing it. Also, what constitutes attacking dogs? Were they biting him? Barking? I think the article lacked some important details.
 
Unless there's some evidence of a firearm being pointed at the shooter or his dogs I would say he's going to be in prison for the rest of his life.
From what I've read he killed the LEO for trespassing and/or for pointing a taser at his dogs.
 
If this guy was a known wack job to local LE and they sent a officer on a solo look/see, I would think that the senior officer on duty has some explaining to do. Also, if the responding officer knew this guy to be trouble from past experience, why the heck is he going solo unless there is a life or death sit6uation. I'm not a fan of the current Gestapo we have as Life Enforcement (LE) in this country, but as far as my christian teachings have always gone, dogs are not quite as high up as human life. I love my dogs and would do as much as the next person to protect them, but to shoot an LE who is holding a taser is not something I would do nor something that I want to see happen. This guy is toast!
 
I agree with everyone who says the guy is toast, he is, no matter what went down that night unless there is some witness that saw the officer say "I'm going to put 10 rounds in you with my glock 40" I think it's safe to say he's either looking at life or a needle. My argument is that the officer shouldn't have been there in the first place or should have left when told to do so without a warrant, I'm not a big fan of "exigent circumstances" giving law enforcement the ability to look around your house whenever they get a phone call.

Notice how NOTHING is being said about the domestic disturbance? If the guy was beating his wife or g/f inside the house and she made the phone call it would be all over the news but that's not the case.

If the cop was pointing a taser at the dogs then I agree bad shoot as it's "less-than-lethal". If the guy thought it was a real gun or it was a real gun and the cop was trespassing, the Chief yells to shoot the dogs then I don't have a lot of sympathy for the officer. Call me an idiot but doing a welfare check should not allow the cops to kill a man's dogs that's just how I feel about it and in this case it cost the officer his life.
 
NHAtHeart said:
If the cop was pointing a taser at the dogs then I agree bad shoot as it's "less-than-lethal". If the guy thought it was a real gun or it was a real gun and the cop was trespassing, the Chief yells to shoot the dogs then I don't have a lot of sympathy for the officer. Call me an idiot but doing a welfare check should not allow the cops to kill a man's dogs that's just how I feel about it and in this case it cost the officer his life.
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I hear ya, but shoot him with a shot gun? Punch him, tackle him, mace him, hit him with a stick or make him watch Ellen, but you don't shoot him in the face with a shot gun.
 
fencer said:
I hear ya, but shoot him with a shot gun? Punch him, tackle him, mace him, hit him with a stick or make him watch Ellen, but you don't shoot him in the face with a shot gun.
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Any of the things you mentioned would have all but guaranteed the dog owner end up dead, especially watching Ellen...
 
NHAtHeart said:
Any of the things you mentioned would have all but guaranteed the dog owner end up dead, especially watching Ellen...
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I do not necessarily agree with this. I really don't think most people who resist are shot and killed. Most of them get tased, beat on and maced - or all three - but most don't get shot.
 
I would like to throw a little wood on the fire . It seems the DV wasn't at the house of the the accused murderer's house at all . Now that being said that makes the PO a trespasser ? Now its being said the dogs attacked , funny how they didn't mention that at the begining . I dont side with either side in this one as there is too much misinformation floating around and i don't think we will ever know the true story but its still a sad day and someone is dead.
 

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