Officer Shot After Pointing Stun Gun at Man's Dogs

It is NOT illegal to use lethal force to protect property under our societys' law. It is illegal to use lethal force to protect property under Massachusetts law.

You are really making a moral judgement on others. YOU don't have the right to pass judgement on others, on the basis of morality / ethics.

As an officer of the law, you DO have the role of enforcing the laws of this state, but that's a whole nuther matter, and one that does not necessarily cross state lines.
I have the right to make a moral/ethical judgment upon whomever I wish, as such is evidence of character, or more likely in the point of this thread I'm complaining about, evidence of an opinion formed without complete contemplation and with an interjection of emotion over the events at hand.

What I don't have a right to do is act upon those judgments in a personal or professional capacity if they aren't within the stated policy desires of society as a whole (i.e., laws). I also wasn't aware you assumed I was employed by the Thought Police.

By the way, let the record indicate you were the one who brought my profession into this converstation, not me. I'm simply contrasting my personal feelings and opinions on what I believe are some absurd positions held by posters here that the value of animal's life, specifically a household pet, outweighs that of a human's, whether he or she be a cop or Joe Trespasser.

Try remembering most of the country is not like MA and it is perfectly acceptable by society to use lethal force to protect property. In fact there are many states where it's perfectly legal to protect OTHER PEOPLE'S property with deadly force.
Please list an example the "many"--screw it, any U.S. jurisdictions where it is "perfectly legal" to use deadly force in order to protect a household pet.

Many law schools begin classes next week. Before September 1st, most first years will read the case of Katko v. Briney, which stands for the proposition that you CANNOT use deadly force to protect property. It is indeed a tort case, but your argument of perfect legality would thus extend to civil actions.
 
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Please list an example the "many"--screw it, any U.S. jurisdictions where it is "perfectly legal" to use deadly force in order to protect a household pet.

Texas and Florida for starters. As pets are considered property and deadly force is authorized for simply stealing property, let alone killing your pet.

Florida FAQ:

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.


Texas:

Deadly Force to Protect Property

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"

Protection of the Property of Others

"A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect the property of a third person if he reasonably believes he would be justified to use similar force to protect his own property, and he reasonably believes that there existed an attempt or actual commission of the crime of theft or criminal mischief."

"Also, a person is justified in using force or deadly force if he reasonably believes that the third person has requested his protection of property; or he has a legal duty to protect the property; or the third person whose property he is protecting is his spouse, parent or child."

Reasonable Belief

"It is not necessary that there should be actual danger, as a person has the right to defend his life and person from apparent danger as fully and to the same extent as he would have were the danger real, as it reasonably appeared to him from his standpoint at the time."

"In fact, Sec 9.31(a) [of the Penal Code] expressly provides that a person is justified in using deadly force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary."

I'm pretty sure that last part there covers shooting of pets. If someone is standing in sight of you and pulls a weapon out, that invokes the apparent danger clause. And that's not the whole justifiable list. It's just a section I grabbed.

Arizona:

13-408. Justification; use of physical force in defense of property

A person is justified in using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it necessary to prevent what a reasonable person would believe is an attempt or commission by the other person of theft or criminal damage involving tangible movable property under his possession or control, but such person may use deadly physical force under these circumstances as provided in sections 13-405, 13-406 and 13-411.

So that's three states I've easily found justification for shooting my pet (property). So what's you're next argument?
 
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How about your cat? Is it ok to shoot a cop who threatens your cat? My kids have turtle, how about the turtle? Shoot someone over your turtle? Yep, it makes sense to me.

I am an American too. Even served right out of high school and have always owned a dog. My point was about common sense. Does that make sense to you? You put the life of a dog at the same or greater value as a human being.

I understand your point. No one is advocating unlawful search or allowing unmitigated use of force by the police but you seem to not understand mine. Just because a cop makes a mistake, it is not an excuse to shoot him.

I'm not commenting on the story, just replying to your post. I'm not saying what I would or wouldn't do, but I value my dog more than I value the vast majority of other people. That might not seem right to you. Your values might not seem right to me. Again, apart from the story here, if some random person threatened my dog's life and did it deliberately and maliciously then I would find morally acceptable to kill them. I'm not saying I would. What I am saying is that in philosophical system, animal lives can exceed human lives in value depending on the circumstances. And I'll extend that to other property as well. If someone walked to my home with a can of gas and a lighter and said they were going to burn it down, then I would find it perfectly ethical to kill them. Again, I'm not saying I would. Intent matters. A person who has no respect for my property, be it animal or not, has no respect for my life. It's my life and the product of it that allows me to acquire things. A man who thinks he can kill or take without the ultimate in culpability is a man who cares nothing for human life. And for, he deserves the same.

My point, simply, is that your view on the value of animal life is too simplistic and too crass. If that's the way you want to live, I don't care. That's not the life I'm choosing. At some point, regardless of consequences, you stand for yours or you might as well crawl.
 
How about your cat? Is it ok to shoot a cop who threatens your cat? My kids have turtle, how about the turtle? Shoot someone over your turtle? Yep, it makes sense to me.

I am an American too. Even served right out of high school and have always owned a dog. My point was about common sense. Does that make sense to you? You put the life of a dog at the same or greater value as a human being.

I understand your point. No one is advocating unlawful search or allowing unmitigated use of force by the police but you seem to not understand mine. Just because a cop makes a mistake, it is not an excuse to shoot him.

I'm not commenting on the story, just replying to your post. I'm not saying what I would or wouldn't do, but I value my dog more than I value the vast majority of other people. That might not seem right to you. Your values might not seem right to me.

Again, apart from the story here, if some random person threatened my dog's life and did it deliberately and maliciously then I would find it morally acceptable to kill them. I'm not saying I would. What I am saying is that in my philosophical system, animal lives can exceed human lives in value depending on the circumstances. And I'll extend that to other property as well. If someone walked to my home with a can of gas and a lighter and said they were going to burn it down, then I would find it perfectly ethical to kill them. Again, I'm not saying I would.

Intent matters. A person who has no respect for my property, be it animal or not, has no respect for my life. It's my life and the product of it that allows me to acquire things. A man who thinks he can kill or take without the ultimate in culpability is a man who cares nothing for human life. And for that, he deserves the same.

My point, simply, is that your view on the value of animal life is too simplistic and too crass. If that's the way you want to live, I don't care. That's not the life I'm choosing. At some point, regardless of consequences, you stand for yours or you might as well crawl.
 
Texas and Florida for starters. As pets are considered property and deadly force is authorized for simply stealing property, let alone killing your pet.
Florida: Robbery is a crime against the property owner , not the property. Burglary, in it's boradest definition for the purposes of this argument, is the unlawful entering of someone's home or business. Still nothing about deady force to protect a pet on your front lawn.

Arizona: It says "physical force" which is a completely different thing than "deadly force". Even in Massachusetts, you can use physical force to remove a trespasser, but certainly not lethal or deadly force. In the AZ law you cited, the extent is limited by the "reasonable person" standard--which I would argue with the population at large will likely not end up favorably.

Texas: You might have something there, but we're still left to assume courts would equate "theft in the nighttime" to killing a dog, which I would argue is the crime of destruction of property and is not enumerated. I know I sound like I'm being coy to win out the argument, but when it comes to deadly force situations where there are huge public policy implications, courts will usually stick to a strict interpretation of statutory language, even in Texas.
A person who has no respect for my property, be it animal or not, has no respect for my life. It's my life and the product of it that allows me to acquire things. A man who thinks he can kill or take without the ultimate in culpability is a man who cares nothing for human life.
For the most part, I agree with your Randian take on your rights to your property, but only to the ends that they are protected by the legal system that allows us to recover in a civilized fashion what was wrongfully taken. I thought lex talionis went away in the age of the Renaissance. If everyone were to act upon there own subjective take of what was "morally acceptable" retalliation, we would descend into chaos.
 
Has this thread gone full retard yet?

And then some.

Really? I don't think so...

We'll likely never know the full details of this tragedy. The "LEO Spin Machine" is in full force, as it always is, (see Jose Guerena). All we have in the end, is "shooter is scumbag" - cop leaves behind a wife and kids". That's pretty much the end result for most if not all shootings where an officer winds up dead - or even when a 'perp' takes a dirt nap. Officer good, justified - shooter bad, scumbag...

I suspect the same would be said if a similar tragedy unfolded with even me. We wouldn't hear: Massmark was a good, decent, patriot, with a beautiful daughter, a dedicated mental health worker and a love of the outdoors". What we'd hear is: "Gun fanatic whose yellow lab attacked officers, who later found an arsenal".
 
For the most part, I agree with your Randian take on your rights to your property, but only to the ends that they are protected by the legal system that allows us to recover in a civilized fashion what was wrongfully taken. I thought lex talionis went away in the age of the Renaissance. If everyone were to act upon there own subjective take of what was "morally acceptable" retalliation, we would descend into chaos.


Joe Horn was cleared.

The legal system isn't always right. Property = money = time = life, even leaving emotional attachment out of it.
 
If everyone were to act upon there own subjective take of what was "morally acceptable" retalliation, we would descend into chaos.

Nah, we'd just end up thinning out the gene pool and people would have more respect for others, because being a dick would have consequences. Instead you can now be one and nothing happens, which in turn requires everyone to be dicks. Enforcement of morals or civility cannot be done by police. You have to be raised that way and have a personal compass of right and wrong. If you don't, then you're just blindly following someone else's morals because you're too weak to stand on your own.


As for the destruction of property vs theft, I fail to see a difference. If someone breaks into my house and starts trashing it I still shoot them. Destruction of property is theft, theft of the time required for me to earn said property. See Martlet's post above.
 
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Really Einstein? What part of the country is it legal to shoot a uniformed LEO for trespassing?

Another recent thread clearly confirm LEO as citizens, not a special protected class. In any part of the country where it is legal to shoot a trespasser, one would have the legal right to shoot a trespassing LEO. The real world consequences of DOING so would be very different than if the shootee were a simple burglar. (or, this being NES, a cat burglar).

You don't shoot a MAN for threatening your dog with a stun gun. Period.

We actually don't have enough information to have a valid opinion either way. The curmudgeon obviously has a history with the officer. For all we know the LEO had been the curmudgeon's boyhood tormenter and that's why he is the way he is. Or possibly the curmudgeon is just an a**h*** and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.




I have the right to make a moral/ethical judgment upon whomever I wish, . . . What I don't have a right to do is act upon those judgments in a personal or professional capacity if they aren't within the stated policy desires of society as a whole (i.e., laws).

If by "stated policy desires of society as whole" you mean those LAWS in effect in the state you have jurisdiction, then I wholehearted agree with both statements (your right to a *personal* judgement and your duty to enforce the law).

I also wasn't aware you assumed I was employed by the Thought Police.

By the way, let the record indicate you were the one who brought my profession into this converstation, not me.

I assumed you are an LEO of some sort. By posting with a nickname OfficeObie59 I would guess you are an officer of the law, Jewish and probably ~ 52 years old.

You made a very clear statement that is is illegal under our societys' law to use lethal force to protect property. Your "name" and your previous statements are part of the context in which your comments are read.

YOU brought your profession into it by your own choice of what and how to represent yourself.

Not really any different from someone like "FarmerJoe56" posting about what pesticides you shouldn't use in a garden. You take the name and other statements into account when you are reading the persons comments.

I'm simply contrasting my personal feelings and opinions on what I believe are some absurd positions held by posters here that the value of animal's life, specifically a household pet, outweighs that of a human's, whether he or she be a cop or Joe Trespasser.

If that's what you were expressing, then my own thoughts (which are more complex that one was right and one was wrong) don't really have any bearing on what you were saying.


[plot twist]

The animal is a cow and this takes place in India. The ONE cop in Mumbai that isn't Hindu is about to tase a cow for some very good reason that I can't imagine right now.

Life is cheap there and cows are sacred.

Is the crowd watching this right to mob the officer and kill him, father to several children?
 
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[plot twist]

The animal is a cow and this takes place in India. The ONE cop in Mumbai that isn't Hindu is about to tase a cow for some very good reason that I can't imagine right now.

Life is cheap there and cows are sacred.

Is the crowd watching this right to mob the officer and kill him, father to several children?

I would not wanna be that guy because he is a dead man.
 
Did someone mention cats?

cat_watermelon_lake.jpg
 
I don't think this has gong retread. Way too much info missing here and we will most likely never know the whole story.

It does seem this was escalated beyond what it needed to be and the chief made a poor decision. I too do not buy the argument of actively being attacked by dogs and at the same time being able to call in for permission to 'shoot'. This seems too much like payback for a guy who is a 'known' PITA. It is also not clear to me the homeowner knew it was a taser. He may have just overheard the approval to shoot. I also think the cheif's decision for the officer to 'deal with' the dogs rather than de-escalate, wait for back up, etc, is indicative of an attitude that could appear like 'we are better than you and can do what we want'. Again, lot's of misinformation so hard to tell.

Whoever was in the right here, what is very clear is that this guy is a canary in a coal mine.
 
Nah, we'd just end up thinning out the gene pool and people would have more respect for others, because being a dick would have consequences. Instead you can now be one and nothing happens, which in turn requires everyone to be dicks.
Perhaps, or we just decend into a post apocolyptic-type world where it's survival of the fittest, and people use the excuse of acting to their own moral compass to further their own hednoistic goals, like amassing power.

Enforcement of morals or civility cannot be done by police. You have to be raised that way and have a personal compass of right and wrong. If you don't, then you're just blindly following someone else's morals because you're too weak to stand on your own.
I abasloutely agree the police *shouldn't* be enforcing morality (however, they can and they do--see the title of MGL Ch. 272), but let's remember when I say laws, I'm not refering soley to the police. I'm also refering to the tort system that exists to right wrongs when replacable items can be replaced with money. I recognize not all property (such as a pet) can be replaced this way, but it is still a system available for this purpose.

As for the destruction of property vs theft, I fail to see a difference. If someone breaks into my house and starts trashing it I still shoot them. Destruction of property is theft, theft of the time required for me to earn said property. See Martlet's post above.
Factual difference? Agreed, not really. Legal difference? Quite possibly. That's my point.

Theft is very specific. If the legislature wanted to make sure the destruction of property would be a basis for protecting such property with deadly force, whay didn't they say so? At least, that's a question the court will have to ask.

I assumed you are an LEO of some sort. By posting with a nickname OfficeObie59 I would guess you are an officer of the law, Jewish and probably ~ 52 years old.
Apparently you've never listened to the radio on Thanksgiving.
You made a very clear statement that is is illegal under our societys' law to use lethal force to protect property. Your "name" and your previous statements are part of the context in which your comments are read.

YOU brought your profession into it by your own choice of what and how to represent yourself.
It's a username with over 5,000 forum posts across the internet, and I use it to be consistent. Still, I would expect my posts to be read for what they say, not what you assume you think I mean because of what I do for a living.

That aside, my point there was at no time did I ever make a comment about me enforcing laws, which puts a whole different spin on what we're talking about. I took your statement as an implication that I would act upon those judgments in an official capacity, which I find quite insulting. It suggests you believe I wouldn't have the ability to separate my own value judgments from actions I perform under the public trust, which I take very seriously.

If that's not the case, I'm still wondering what my profession had to do with my posts up until that point.

The animal is a cow and this takes place in India. The ONE cop in Mumbai that isn't Hindu is about to tase a cow for some very good reason that I can't imagine right now.

Life is cheap there and cows are sacred.

Is the crowd watching this right to mob the officer and kill him, father to several children?
In my judgment of their morals? Nope, that's brutal.

However, that cop lives in a Hindu society where social norms and values of holding cows sacred had influenced by that religion has shaped the laws. I still disagree that a mob would be thr proper way for any society to enact whatever crazy form of justice they believe in. Again, nation of laws, not of men.
 
And the only other "witness" is the chief who yelled or radio'd to the officer to shoot the dogs. The guy doesn't sound like an upstanding citizen by any means but I'm more concerned with the fact nobody is saying what the "domestic disturbance" was, some articles make it sound like it wasn't even at his house but the one behind it. Just seems like the whole killing a guys dogs and busting down his door over a phone call is pretty rotten protocol. I don't have a better solution other than back away try to keep the guy outside talking (if he is the "suspect") get backup there and try to figure out what was going on at a safe distance.

True enough.....

FWIW... I'm not going to call this guy that shot the cop some kind of a freedom fighter though, without knowing more details. My gut feeling is this guy is a scumbag, but even scumbags have rights.

That said, I can sort of empathize with the guy if he was just at home, then these cops unexpectedly (at least, to him) show up and now are pointing deadly weapons at my pets, with a guy behind him commanding to shoot my dog/cat/whatever. There is a chilling, visceral effect to that sort of thing. It's possible the homeowner saw all this, perhaps even confused the taser for a real gun, and "snapped" and ended up shooting the LEO because, at that moment, in his mind, he believed the LEO was about to kill his pets.

I think the most nagging questions I have are.... Was the domestic reported at the guy's house? and who reported it? If it was in this guys house, was the wife actually being assaulted? (I read a claim which stated that he took the phone away from her, but it is not clear if he was trying to hit her or not, etc. )

-Mike
 
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One point that has not been amplified is that the deceased officer was pointing a taser and not a firearm at the dogs. The officer according to at least one report was in an alley behind the house and was attacked by the dogs which is a public byway.
Good point, and likely has some validity. According to Google maps there is an alley at the location of the alleged shooter:
440 new street freeburg.jpg
Once can easily see going through that alley to get to other residencies, yet how the alleged shooter might think of it as his property.

According to this report the alleged shooter was known to the LEO:
Lasso had encountered Hitcho before, according to court records.

He charged Hitcho on Dec. 11, 2006, with possession of drug paraphernalia in Freemansburg.
and did not have sterling reputation in the neighborhood:
Another neighbor said she dealt with Hitcho only once, when he allegedly threatened her young son for throwing a tennis ball against the side of his house.

"All I knew of him was the neighbors said he was bad news, stay away from him, don’t talk to him,” she said. “So I never did.”


If the chief was on the scene providing back-up I am a bit surprised that he didn't engage the shooter in a firefight and attempt to take him out.
I suspect it's quite possible that the chief, even if he was on scene, might not have had a clear view or clear shot at the alleged shooter.

So far with everything I've read (ex. officer probably on public way, legally in response to domestic call, less-than-lethal v.s. lethal force, man v.s animal) points to the alleged shooter being in the wrong. We'll see what else eventually comes out.
 
Why wouldn't the cop leave after being warned? The cop started this domino series of events. Don't misunderstand, this is a terrible tragedy, but it is the cop's fault. Even with warrant for a specific address, it is not your ticket to freely trespass on neighbor's property to procure an optimal position, or for any reason. You are breaking additional laws if you are unlawfully on someone's property with a firearm and refuse to leave when they tell you to. Silly LEOs and their beliefs they are above the law.
 
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Factual difference? Agreed, not really. Legal difference? Quite possibly. That's my point.

Theft is very specific. If the legislature wanted to make sure the destruction of property would be a basis for protecting such property with deadly force, whay didn't they say so? At least, that's a question the court will have to ask.

Agreed. I wasn't saying what would happen after such an incident, merely pointing out what the law says and what I personally would do.

As for the current story, I'm still hoping to hear more detail.
 
If the paper reported that: "Police Chief George Bruneio, who arrived after Mr Lasso requested assistance, instructed him to 'shoot the dogs' and that's when the homeowner pulled out a shotgun and fired"

Well, you know there is a whole lot more to this story than was reported! Who knows what was said, but this guy felt threatened with death from an officer who he thought should not be on his land. Should be an interesting court case.

Feel really sorry for the cop, who seemed to be in the middle, and did not think thru his commanding officers orders before reacting foolishly!
 
It is NOT illegal to use lethal force to protect property under our societys' law. It is illegal to use lethal force to protect property under Massachusetts law.

You are really making a moral judgement on others. YOU don't have the right to pass judgement on others, on the basis of morality / ethics.

As an officer of the law, you DO have the role of enforcing the laws of this state, but that's a whole nuther matter, and one that does not necessarily cross state lines.

You can FEEL however you like, but remember: "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to a better understanding of ourselves." -Carl Jung

Is it legal to use deadly force when the property(dogs in this case) is being threatened with non lethal force?
 
Is it legal to use deadly force when the property(dogs in this case) is being threatened with non lethal force?

I wouldn't automatically assume a stun gun used on a dog is non-lethal, but I really don't know. Then there's also the fact that when drawing to use, the landowner may have believed that the cop was actually deploying a real firearm. Try drawing a stun gun on a cop and see what the response is, their report will say they believed you were drawing a gun. The street goes two ways. Beyond the emotional component of this, killing the dog is destruction/theft of property. They weren't even supposed to be on his land and ignored requests to leave. Unless there is more to the story of course.

If a non-police officer did this same thing, and got shot, I bet the response would be different.
 
I will commend the homeowners actions and say good on him. You can roll over and let your masters do what they want, when they want. I don't care if you point your gun at my fish tank, you're a dead man.

This is not an example of justified use of deadly force. Take a deep breath people.
 
The question is why does the cop feel he can just come onto someone's property, and threaten him and his other property (Dogs) based on nothing more than a phone call (If that much). Its simple for me, no warrant, no entry. I don't care if some moron called you and told you there is a "Domestic disturbance" at my house, it doesn't give you the right to trample my 4th amendment rights. You have proof of a crime, get a warrant and come see me.

I'd rather deal with the issues coming from FOLLOWING the constitution 100% than let them make up all sorts of rules and times where your rights don't apply. If some people are hurt in the process, or some criminals get out of being punished because of it thats unfortunate. But i'm not willing to to give up even an inch of my rights just because someone somewhere might be put out by it. Too bad.

Actually, not so simple Firestorm.

It has been held that a 911 phone call that identifies the location and the situation (a domestic violence report in this case) does constitute a reasonable belief that a victim is in need of emergency aid such that a warrantless entry into residential private property is justified.

Welfare Checks and the "Emergency Aid" Doctrine: Checking for victims in a residence upon a "reasonable belief" that someone inside a residence is in need of aid, or that there is an imminent threat to the life or welfare of someone inside, an immediate, justifies a warrantless entry. (People v. Ray (1999) 21 Cal.4[SUP]th[/SUP] 464; Tamborino v. Superior Court (1986) 41 Cal.3[SUP]rd[/SUP] 919; People v. Ammons (1980) 103 Cal.App.3[SUP]rd[/SUP] 20.)
Entry into a residence to check for the possible presence of a domestic violence victim who had telephoned police minutes earlier to ask for assistance in returning to the apartment to retrieve her belongings, but who couldn't be found upon the officers arrival, was held to be lawful under the circumstances. (United States v. Black (9[SUP]th[/SUP] Cir. 2007) 482 F.3[SUP]rd[/SUP] 1035.)


Firestorm, let's say some bad guys quietly broke into your house in the middle of the night and managed to subdue you before you could get hold of your bedside 12 gauge Mossy Persuader. Your wife manages to dial 911, but not get a word in, before the BGs tie her up too. Would you welcome the cops busting in, or would you rather they respect your property rights and wake up a judge and try to get a warrant over the next 2 hours, while the BG do unspeakable things to you and your wife?
 
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