No Carry In Gunshow

[donttreadonme]

Am I being a stubborn ass for asking for and getting a refund (3 tickets) and walking out of a gun show with my family because they asked me if I was carrying (I have a permit and carry everywhere that's legal) and then proceeded to ask me to unload my Seecamp and leave the mag at the desk. At a gun show?! Correct me if I am wrong but that does not seem right to me. Does it to you? :?

 

[Republic of Mass]

Am I being a stubborn ass for asking for and getting a refund (3 tickets) and walking out of a gun show with my family because they asked me if I was carrying (I have a permit and carry everywhere that's legal) and then proceeded to ask me to unload my Seecamp and leave the mag at the desk. At a gun show?! Correct me if I am wrong but that does not seem right to me. Does it to you? :?

WELLLLL 1) ive bever been to a gun show, but here's how i see it

Yes, unless they're checking by metal detector, it is wrong.

Voluntary disarming as such only disarms the honest


I suppose gunshows are trying to minimize the ammo in the rooms,

 

[Len-2A Training]

There have been at least 3 NDs at gun shows that I've attended. Two of those happened at the "check-in" area and one was on the floor of a show and narrowly missed hitting some attendees.

Thus, the rules of no carry have popped up like mushrooms at all gun shows that I'm aware of across the USA.

If someone wants to try out a holster or check something on his gun, if it is loaded, he can become a hazard to everyone around him. Many people are very bad about the rule "NEVER POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING THAT YOU AREN'T WILLING TO DESTROY"!

At a gun show (I was working and thus allowed to be armed/loaded), I had one ass-clown sight in a rifle on myself and another LEO that I was talking with. I sent the on-duty LEO to have a chat with the ass-clown.

Also the insurance companies who insure the show promoters have insisted on a "no loaded guns" policy. One of the show promoters that I know usually carried a loaded gun in a shoulder holster and many of the dealers also carried loaded. Last few of their shows I've been to, I've seen cable-tyed guns in holsters of the dealers, so I can only assume that their rules have changed for all.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Any private business is within their LEGAL rights to demand that people who enter are unarmed. Whether you chose to do business there is up to you (me, and anyone else).

However in most stores, nobody who is armed would be expected to unholster their gun. Now in gun stores and gun shows, this is very different. A certain percentage will try their gun in a holster they are looking at (I've done it myself), etc. Thus, where I would NOT be sympathetic to businesses asking one to disarm to enter, I do understand the safety concerns at a gun show.

For those that attend shows, watch how people sight a gun when they pick it up! Usually pointed in someone's direction, not up towards the ceiling or other safe directions.

If you don't want to be disarmed in a gun show, I dare say that you won't be attending any gun shows in the Northeast!

 

[BlkHawk73]

I think it's an insurance thing. Way to much liability in the case of some idiots "whoops". Now a days, people will sue for anything they can just to get a quick buck - or million. Besides, if there's anyplace I go where I feel safe it's a gun show. What dumb@$$ would try something there?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Besides, if there's anyplace I go where I feel safe it's a gun show. What dumb@$$ would try something there?

Well, there have been more than a few instances where someone "planted" live ammo in a dealer's gun and walked away. Some bozo that knows nothing about gun safety picks it up and ends up firing off a round! No one has been caught in the act of planting the rounds, but the general feeling is that it is being done by some anti-gun folks as a way to shut-down the gun shows. [I don't think it has happened in New England . . . yet . . . but it is only a matter of time!]

 

[Admin]

I don't like the rule, but keep in mind there are some I see at gun shows that I wouldnt want wheeling a gun around trying to quick draw from a new tight holster they are trying out.

 

[FPrice]

[I don't think it has happened in New England . . . yet . . . but it is only a matter of time!]

I "believe" that we had an instance of this at the Big E gunshow in West Springfield about 8 years ago but I can't put my finger on anything which backs me up on this.

As far as enforcing the "no carry" rule at a gunshow, I think two separate "freedoms" are bumping into one another here. The freedom (or the priviledge) to carry versus the freedom (or right) to restrict what happens in a commercial venue. Which trumps the other?

As fas as I know, Massachusetts General Law does not have a provision for allowing businesses to post their property as "No Carry" areas similar to Texas law. Therefore a gunshow could post signs saying "No Carry" but could not have you arrested for doing so, merely ask you to comply or leave. However, if you refuse to do either, then I would think you might get into trouble.

This might be a good question to pose to the organizers of the Big E gunshow this coming weekend.

donttreadonme,

I don't think you were being a stubborn ass, I think you took one of two options and stuck to your principles. As long as you didn't behave like an ass in doing so.

 

[BlkHawk73]

I was referrng more some idiot purposely opening fire at a gun show so that a defensive shot would be needed. Cripes, there'd be so many bullets flying, I'd not want to be there. More or less turn into a flying bullet party. One guy pulls out, everyone else will just to follow suit. One hguy fires, ... get the picture of what could happen? Besides, there are some I see at shows that I really wouldn't feel comfprtable with them having a loaded gun in that situation.

As far as it being posted. If it's private property, those having the say as to what's a 'go and waht's a "no-go" on that property have the absolute right to do so. Just like any of us can decide what is and is not allowed in our homes. Those that don't agree are equally free to not participate and leave. failure to abide by the rules can result in the person being asked to leave the premises. Failure to comply then could bring a tresspassing charge. From there is can only get worse since many charges escalate when a firerm is involved. Agree or not, I still think there's just way too much liabiltiy at stake.

 

[KMaurer]

If anybody other than a police officer asks me whether I'm carrying, the odds of them getting a straight answer are somewhere between slim and none. I may be polite and evasive, I may dissemble, and I may let them know that it's none of their bleepin' business. It doesn't matter whether I'm carrying or not; the answer's always going to be the same. Only a fool gives a straight answer under one set of circumstances and says "no comment" otherwise.

Their insurance might insist that they ask and refuse admission to anyone who answers in the affirmative. It doesn't oblige me to provide that information. The only way anybody there is going to know for certain whether or not I'm carrying is if the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller. Of course anybody who actually knows me could make a pretty good guess what the correct answer would be.

Ken

 

[donttreadonme]

Thanks everyone for your honest responses to my post. I do understand both arguments of this dilemma but probably and regrettably will have to forgo visiting future gun shows because of this new rule and that just plain stinks. Take care.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's not a new rule. I recall this rule being in place for probably >10 years now.

Just like the Big E PROHIBITS ammo in their buildings, so the 2 ammo dealers allowed at the show are always in a tent outside the building. Dumb, but that is their rules!

Just like I have rule that nobody is allowed to smoke in my home . . . my home, my rules!

 

[FPrice]

donttreadonme,

I do understand both arguments of this dilemma but probably and regrettably will have to forgo visiting future gun shows because of this new rule and that just plain stinks.

While the final decision is up to you I would suggest that you reconsider. The only person you are hurting is yourself. And if everyone followed your lead then gun shows, a very visible support of our rights might go away and hurt the business even more.

 

[donttreadonme]

donttreadonme,

I do understand both arguments of this dilemma but probably and regrettably will have to forgo visiting future gun shows because of this new rule and that just plain stinks.

While the final decision is up to you I would suggest that you reconsider. The only person you are hurting is yourself. And if everyone followed your lead then gun shows, a very visible support of our rights might go away and hurt the business even more.

Thanks for that input. I will consider it.

 

[Lynne]

Ed and I have gone to a number of gun shows and every single one we've been to (one in NH as well) has requested that we leave the ammo at the door. And Derek's comment about some of the folks there and whether or not I want them trying out a quick draw? Oh yeah.... [roll]

 

[Republic of Mass]

If anybody other than a police officer asks me whether I'm carrying, the odds of them getting a straight answer are somewhere between slim and none.

Ken

It's like asking a cop if he's wearing kevlar...
Yes: you'll shoot me in the head
no: you'll shoot me elsewhere

You packin?
Yes: shoot me in the back
No: Jump me.....

I instantly change the subject, and like you sake Maurer, the few people that know about my LTC'ing know Im packing 24/7

 

[Len-2A Training]

Interesting historical story:

Just flipped to the History Channel on my computer (TV card installed) and they have a story on Wyatt Earp as Marshall of Dodge City. They posted Dodge City as "no firearms within city limits" requiring everyone to check their guns upon entering the city. [NOTE: It was a lawless city then with lots of out-of-control fights/shootings.]

I guess that gun bans and posting signs is nothing new!
[shock]

 

[Lynne]

I guess that gun bans and posting signs is nothing new!
[shock]

And works just as well.

 

[MrsWildweasel]

There are times at the gun show I have seen many UNSAFE people. Which I quickly try to get out of the way of.

 

[stosh]

Question

What's with all the Nazi memorabilia at gun shows, also, there was a dealer at the Rockingham show with a great deal of KKK related items; the last show I went to at Center of New Hampshire in Manchester had a white supremacist goup from a state relatively far away set up with a dealer table; curious as to why these people show up at gun shows, are they at flea markets and other places where any dealer can set up a table or is there some special attraction for them to 'gun shows' ?

 

[Nickle]

As far as Nazi memorabilia goes, it is frequently collected by the same folks that collect WW2 vintage firearms.

KKK stuff doesn't belong in a gun show, IMNSHO. It's kind of like the Brady Foundation setting up shop, once you understand the historical origins of gun control in the US.

 

[FPrice]

Re: Question

What's with all the Nazi memorabilia at gun shows, also, there was a dealer at the Rockingham show with a great deal of KKK related items; the last show I went to at Center of New Hampshire in Manchester had a white supremacist goup from a state relatively far away set up with a dealer table; curious as to why these people show up at gun shows, are they at flea markets and other places where any dealer can set up a table or is there some special attraction for them to 'gun shows' ?

Many of these people also like firearms (for good reasons or bad - take your pick). I imagine that they hope to use gun shows as a venue to attract "kindred spirits". While I don't particularly like it, you run a dangerous path by trying to "censor" such people. First, they could claim discrimination or government persecution to try to get more sympathy. Secondly, if you are successful banning them, could anti-gun forces use this precedent to ban gun shows or similar events?

I think there is also a fine difference between German war memorabilia and Nazi propaganda. I admire the German military and have some interest in their history, to include WWII. But I deplore the fact that they were used by the Nazis to prosecute WWII and many of it's atrocities. It is hard to separate the two.

 

[stosh]

Interesting

FPrice,
Very interesting, and apparently very valid points you cite. Thanks. makes one think about the various interests that may be at work beneath the surface; nothing is ever simple in life is it. Just being interested in firearms and having a desire to promote the shooting sports can have some complex tangential issues far beyond the basic pro-gun/anti-gun debate.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Shows

I've never encoutered a "leave your ammo at the door" show which insisted that the magazine be left as well if the attendee is willing to unload it and leave the rounds. Generally, a polite explaination that the magazine is "legit preban" or "hard to come by" gets an equally polite accomodation and admission to the show in posession of the unloaded magazine after surrendering the ammo.

The real "hipocracy test" is "Does show management abide by the same rule, or do they declare themselves as either exempt or fulfilling a concurrent security role?"

I have run a lot of courses and matches at "cold ranges", but I have never run one where I tell the attendees "You are not allowed to be armed but I am."

 

[Len-2A Training]

A couple of points:

- Many gun shows are advertised as "collectibles" shows as well as modern weapons. Thus, German war related paraphernalia is appropriate and not necessarily an endorsement of white (German blond/blue-eyed) supremacy.

- KKK and other white supremacy orgs should NOT be allowed at gun shows!!

- Gun shows are NOT run by the gov't (or gun shows in the Northeast wouldn't exist)! They are run by private entrepreneurs and as such they make the rules. Thus, they can indeed ban KKK, white supremacy groups, Nazi paraphernalia, etc. and they would be perfectly within their rights to do so.

- Back about 3-4 years ago, Carole's company (who run all the MA gun shows and a few NH shows . . . DiPrete runs the rest of the Northern New England shows) allowed the vendors to be armed and Marvin carried in a shoulder holster (her assistant). They did not allow attendees to carry in the shows for fears that some (valid, I'm sorry to say) would unholster to try something with a loaded gun and point it in unsafe directions. I've seen enough unsafe pointing of guns at people walking around the shows to understand this rule and regrettably have to agree with it in general. On the other hand I know of numerous attendees who are armed and just "go about their business" smartly and with safety in mind.

- Last few years, I've seen the vendors guns carried empty and ty-rapped and Marvin hasn't been carrying either. I suspect that their insurance company is dictating this rule at this point.