NJ - Superior Court: State Trying To Take Blind Man's Guns

[Kevlar]

Authorities are either trying to protect the public from a blind Rockaway Township man's sloppy gun storage methods or trying to take away his constitutional right to own firearms, according to court arguments today.

Morris County Assistant Prosecutor Joseph D'Onofrio was before a Superior Court judge in Morristown, seeking to revoke Steven Hopler's firearms identification cards that allow him to own guns and to take away about 16 of his firearms.

With Hopler, 47, seated beside him, attorney Gregg Trautmann argued against the action, calling it a long-time battle waged by authorities to deprive Hopler of his Second Amendment right under the U.S. Constitution.....

http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/...rris+County+man+be+permitted+to+keep+his+guns

 

[MisterHappy]

Simple solution - limit the ammo to frangible rounds that won't penetrate the walls.

This way, no one will be competely satisfied, which is the sign of a fair deal.....

 

[TimMcG74]

This sounds like an Onion article. Let's use some common sense. The public has an obvious interest in preventing a blind man, who is by definition incapable of handling a gun safely, from leaving loaded firearms strewn around all over the floor.

 

[Boghog1]

Isn't there someone on this board that is "legally" blind? When I was in school on of my fellow students was blind, used a dog and all. oh did I forget to mention it was art school?

 

[TimMcG74]

Isn't there someone on this board that is "legally" blind? When I was in school on of my fellow students was blind, used a dog and all. oh did I forget to mention it was art school?

Not sure, but it sounds like the guy in the article is completely blind. There are VERY few circumstances under which I would favor restricting someone's fundemental rights. This is one of them.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This sounds like an Onion article. Let's use some common sense. The public has an obvious interest in preventing a blind man, who is by definition incapable of handling a gun safely, from leaving loaded firearms strewn around all over the floor.

Do you know the legal definition of "blind"?

I know what the perception is . . . someone who can see absolutely nothing, must use a stick or dog to get around . . . however that is NOT reality.

I suspect that the definition changes from state to state, so I'll only offer what I know about in MA.

"Legally blind" means 20/400 or worse eyesight. I don't know if this is before or after wearing corrective lenses, but that is hardly someone who "can't see".

I have been behind a car with a "Blind Person Driving" kind of sticker on the back window. Didn't make me feel real safe, but apparently RMV issues DLs to "blind" people in MA. [No pun or sarcasm intended.]

As for storage, if he doesn't have kids hanging out in his home, and there is no law to the contrary, how he stores them should not be of any legal concern to anyone.

 

[drgrant]

Not sure, but it sounds like the guy in the article is completely blind. There are VERY few circumstances under which I would favor restricting someone's fundemental rights. This is one of them.

It's unclear to me whether or not the person is completely blind.

PRNJ in its anti gun fervor down there, is just trying to disarm someone, like they
would do to everyone else if given half a chance, that's what it smells like.

-Mike

 

[TimMcG74]

To be clear, I definitely make a distinction between "legally blind" with some functional, remaining eyesight (which, of course, I don't consider to be a problem) and completely blind.

It sounds like he lives in a multi-family (has a tenent) and that he has a history of accidently firing off rounds. Bullets penetrate walls.

"Honey, get the mop. The blind guy next door shot the cat again."

 

[buketduder]

Not sure, but it sounds like the guy in the article is completely blind. There are VERY few circumstances under which I would favor restricting someone's fundemental rights. This is one of them.

I don't see this..he has a right to self defense..blind or not....make 1 exception and why not make 100....I doubt he is shooting in his home..

 

[Kevlar]

More Info And Original (1994) Story...

More info...

A New Jersey prosecutor was fighting a blind man from recovering at least six guns that were stolen from him.

Undercover detectives purchased five of Steven Hopler's handguns on the street and a sixth was used in a suicide.

The Rockaway Township resident, who has been blind since 1991 because of complications from diabetes, won permission in 1994 to buy firearms and shoot them under supervision.....

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/06/_a_blind_man_from_recovering_at_least.html



Original (1994) Story...

STEVEN HOPLER says he fervently believes that the Constitution accords all citizens the right to have guns. He says that includes citizens who, like him, are blind.

Not so, the Rockaway Township Police Department says. It refused to issue him a gun permit in December. So Mr. Hopler, 31, who became totally blind in 1991 because of diabetes, went to court over the issue.

"I believed I had as much a right as a sighted person to own a gun, and that is my hobby," said Mr. Hopler, a former truck driver who lives in rural Rockaway Township.

Mr. Hopler's appeal to State Superior Court resulted in a ruling in his favor.....

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/03/n...e-a-right-to-own-firearms-judge-says-yes.html

 

[Len-2A Training]

To be clear, I definitely make a distinction between "legally blind" with some functional, remaining eyesight (which, of course, I don't consider to be a problem) and completely blind.

It sounds like he lives in a multi-family (has a tenent) and that he has a history of accidently firing off rounds. Bullets penetrate walls.

"Honey, get the mop. The blind guy next door shot the cat again."

We KNOW that the media ALWAYS gets every gun story 100% straight, don't we?

- I tend to doubt the 100% blind info from diabetes. My late Father had diabetes. Very nasty disease and it does affect the eyes in a big way, but 100% blindness from it would be extremely rare.

- The story has ONE incident of him shooting himself in the shin while cleaning a gun (Glock?). A ND when cleaning guns has happened to more than a few people that are fully sighted. There is a bullet hole in the gun cleaning table at BR&P as a testimony to that (and the rules are unload on the range before cleaning gun, reload on the range afterwards).

- I think your post exaggerates the situation just like the snews story is likely exaggerated.

 

[albythewhitey]

- I tend to doubt the 100% blind info from diabetes. My late Father had diabetes. Very nasty disease and it does affect the eyes in a big way, but 100% blindness from it would be extremely rare.

My girlfriends father is actually blind from diabetes. From what she told me, his body produces to many blood cells and block his vision. The doctors have had success operating on his eye, but every couple months he goes blind again and has to have surgery. Right now he cant see at all and surgery wont help in the near future. I feel bad for him because he is a gun owner, loves his guns, and its something we can connect on.

I can see how his neighbors might be nervous if hes completely blind, especially if hes accidentally shooting himself. He has a right to self defense, but what If he shot the mailman thinking he was an intruder. He cant make a positive identification if someone may or may not be breaking into his house.

 

[milktree]

Do you know the legal definition of "blind"?

"Legally blind" means 20/400 or worse eyesight. I don't know if this is before or after wearing corrective lenses, but that is hardly someone who "can't see".

I'm 99% sure it's 20/400 with corrective lenses.

 

[blindfire]

Isn't there someone on this board that is "legally" blind? When I was in school on of my fellow students was blind, used a dog and all. oh did I forget to mention it was art school?

YO! I am legally blind. Remember, legally blind a WAAAAAY different then total blindness (MA, CA, TX, WA and OR - all define legal blindness as 20/100 (corrected) or worse in your best eye). I assume NJ probably uses the same standards. I was born with congenital cataracts and at the time, there was no lens implant surgery (1970 time frame). So, my lenses were removed and now I ware coke-bottle type glasses.

While I find his lack of safe storage a bit concerning (only my opinion), he should not have his 2A rights violated. The fact that he shot himself while cleaning the gun is immaterial as well. How many reports of people with 20/20 vision do we hear every year where the gun "went off while cleaning"? Do those people lose their guns and permits? Doubtful.

My impression from reading the article is that the guy has no respect for his guns. Storing his gun in a oven-mit...REALLY? Again, not a reason to lose them. If the state is THAT concerned about this, then they should have actual laws regulating storage. But until they do this, this guy should not lose his guns and license.


I was trying to come up with a blind shooting joke. It was in the same line as "How do you drive Helen Keller insane?" A: Tell her to read the stucko wall.
Was thinking of trying to "read" the target with the holes after practice. Suggestions welcome

Real Jokes :

Q : How does a blind skydiver know when he is getting ready to hit the ground?
A : Slack in the leash

Q : Why don't blind people skydive?
A : It scares the hell out of the dog.

 

[Sibb]

YO! I am legally blind. Remember, legally blind a WAAAAAY different then total blindness (MA, CA, TX, WA and OR - all define legal blindness as 20/100 (corrected) or worse in your best eye). I assume NJ probably uses the same standards. I was born with congenital cataracts and at the time, there was no lens implant surgery (1970 time frame). So, my lenses were removed and now I ware coke-bottle type glasses.

While I find his lack of safe storage a bit concerning (only my opinion), he should not have his 2A rights violated. The fact that he shot himself while cleaning the gun is immaterial as well. How many reports of people with 20/20 vision do we hear every year where the gun "went off while cleaning"? Do those people lose their guns and permits? Doubtful.

My impression from reading the article is that the guy has no respect for his guns. Storing his gun in a oven-mit...REALLY? Again, not a reason to lose them. If the state is THAT concerned about this, then they should have actual laws regulating storage. But until they do this, this guy should not lose his guns and license.


I was trying to come up with a blind shooting joke. It was in the same line as "How do you drive Helen Keller insane?" A: Tell her to read the stucko wall.
Was thinking of trying to "read" the target with the holes after practice. Suggestions welcome

Real Jokes :

Q : How does a blind skydiver know when he is getting ready to hit the ground?
A : Slack in the leash

Q : Why don't blind people skydive?
A : It scares the hell out of the dog.

Ok I'll give it a shot.

Q: What do you call a blind guy at the range?
A: DUCK!!!!

 

[terraformer]

I have a different take. This guy was likely into guns before losing his vision. Taking them away now is taking away hope and yet one more thing from former way of life.

 

[n1oty]

If NJ has such an aversion to risk, I have a better suggestion for them. Leave this guy alone and strip every NJ resident of their drivers license.

 

[Harleynut]

My older brother was born 100% blind and was issued a LTC in Waltham Mass years ago. For reason for issue he put down collector. When questioned he told them that even though he couldn't see them he could enjoy feeling them and the quality of the action etc. At that time the reason for issue didn't restrict the use. At that time they didn't know of someone that was born blind having been issued one but that there was nothing forbidding it.
We did have him shoot at one gun club and I just stood behind him and helped him align the site then he would send one down range. Range officer took notice of the 44 mag going off and what we were doing and asked is he blind? I said yes and he said it was good to see someone still enjoy shooting. We were very careful that everything was landing close to the middle of the berms.

 

[dwarven1]

Do you know the legal definition of "blind"?

I know what the perception is . . . someone who can see absolutely nothing, must use a stick or dog to get around . . . however that is NOT reality.

Got a friend in NJ who's legally blind. (and legally blonde, but let's not get into that...). I still wouldn't want to get her pissed off at me; she's pretty good hitting anything she can see with that Model 27. And yes, she can still see out of one eye. Just not real well.


As for storage...

Trautmann argued that there are no laws, only suggestions and guidelines, on how guns should be stored in a private home.

Lived there so I know it's true. One thing that NJ does better than MA.

 

[KMaurer]

There was a story in the media a couple of years back about a guy somewhere out in fly-over country who was totally blind and had just passed the shooting test to get his CCW. What's the matter with people? Didn't anybody ever watch Kung Fu? TV BS aside, I've personally seen Zen archers put a half dozen arrows into a nice tight group in the middle of the target in about 10 seconds while blindfolded. But of course this is about guns, so it makes sense that people decide that he shouldn't be allowed to even possess the evil things. When did this place turn into the Brady Blog?

As for legally blind vs totally blind, I completed the 4-day defensive handgun course at Front-Sight less than a month after eye surgery while still legally blind, i.e., vision corrected to 20/400 at the time. Didn't do so well on those quick head shots, but the rest was certainly doable.

Ken

 

[kiver]

How come the ADA has not come to his support yet???

 

[blindfire]

How come the ADA has not come to his support yet???

Cuz the ADA doesn't cover gun ownership. I'd bet more on the NFB (National Federation for the Blind) or ACLU.

 

[cekim]

This sounds like an Onion article. Let's use some common sense. The public has an obvious interest in preventing a blind man, who is by definition incapable of handling a gun safely, from leaving loaded firearms strewn around all over the floor.

If you are being serious, you might as well use that .gif in your avatar as toilet paper and you have a lot to learn about liberty...

 

[Lamina]

If you are being serious, you might as well use that .gif in your avatar as toilet paper and you have a lot to learn about liberty...

This.

"public interest" and "greater good" are two of the most evil terms in modern use.

 

[Reptile]

If I was in a totally dark room being physically attacked I still could defend my life with my gun.

 

[Otis311]

My brother is legally blind. Getting his LTC was one of the best things to happen in his life. If he were to lose it, he would be devastated.

 

[vicpinto]

It's articles like this that bring out the true colors in certain individuals around here and then we get to see your real opinions about the second amendmend.

Please show me where the 2A only applies to non blind people? Maybe we should make an exception on 1A when it comes to mute people as well.

Geez people, an inalienable right is just that... inalienable. Get over yourselves. Not everyone is a picture of perfect health.

 

[MassMark]

Nice to see that for some, the Constitution is printed on Silly Putty - easily pliable and molded to shape what you think is applicable. If it feels good - it is good I suppose? Elitist Liberty - it's a hoot!

 

[TimMcG74]

It's articles like this that bring out the true colors in certain individuals around here and then we get to see your real opinions about the second amendmend.

Please show me where the 2A only applies to non blind people? Maybe we should make an exception on 1A when it comes to mute people as well.

Geez people, an inalienable right is just that... inalienable. Get over yourselves. Not everyone is a picture of perfect health.

I am glad you brought up 1A. Surely, you know that it is not an absolute right. One has a right to free speech but cannot shout "fire!" in a theatre, because it puts the people around him at risk. People who are completely blind cannot safely handle a gun, no more than they can safely drive a car.

Would you bring your kids to the range if you knew that a completely blind guy would be shooting there that day?

If you lived in a townhouse on the other side of the wall from a completely blind guy who shot himself while cleaning a gun, how would you proceed?

By the way, thanks for the negative reps.

 

[Pilgrim]

Someone who is completely blind cannot safely handle a gun,

Bull crap.

I'm shocked at some of the crap statements made in this thread.

Let them have frangibles only.........................