Nightmare Dealers

[michaelpelosillc]

I've seen vendors circumvent MAP at times by not displaying a lower price, but showing it only after you put it in the cart.
Manufacturers seem to let them get away with it, because a lot of reputable sellers do this.
And it seems to work for the vendors because they end up making more money from volume than from per-unit profit.

Every vendor has different policies on this. It's typically not allowed but every company enforces MAP differently. Canik, for example, never enforces it. Glock and Sig have a full team of lawyers at the helm ready to pounce. Daniel Defense is maybe-maybe-not. Holosun hands out MAP violations like condoms on prom night.

 

[drgrant]

The MAP on, for example, a Glock 19 Gen5 is $620. If someone is selling these BNIB for a lower "street price," I'd imagine they don't have an FFL. If that's the case, it won't be long before nice gentlepeople from the ATF/IRS show up and inquire about their business dealings. I find, as do many dealers, that it's the opposite - people want to sell their used firearms for a price that is similar to MAP, which is why many shops offer lower trade in values on common firearms, as the price they want exceeds the dealer cost of a new item.

Firearms with enforceable MAP sell for the same prices just about everywhere. I use fair as a price floor as dictated by the distributors, but agree that local market + elasticity is what matters.

There are lots of dealers that routinely sell below MAP after discounts are brought into play. But it depends on the item.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

Making a few texts or phone calls and buying the thing you want at gunbroker low, land at the local small FFL for $50 transfer or less, and not paying sales tax and paying under $25 for shipping, and not spending more than maybe 15 minutes to orchestrate the whole thing.

Me? I can't even be bothered, I do an even easier version of this where I call or text my local dealer and get a quote, and just buy local or semi local even if it's not the cheapest. 95% of the time I still get within $100 of what the skinflints pay, and with better service/way less aggravation. (And i get dealer support, where flints get nothing but a basket of air).

I think there are some people who get their dopamine hits from knowing they got the absolutely lowest price possible on something, no matter how much time and long-run money they've lost.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

There are lots of dealers that routinely sell below MAP after discounts are brought into play. But it depends on the item.

Yes. Cart discounts, free items, etc. You can do what you want in your store. If I offer a "free item" next to said Glock, I'm violating their MAP if I advertise it but fine if doing in store. Overall, though, items with strong MAP enforcements are typically sold at a MAP price across the board unless an in-store promotion or something is happening. The only companies that really enforce their MAP, though, are Glock, Sig, Holosun, and Leupold (in my experience, so far). Other companies couldn't be bothered.

 

[ziffusion]

Yes. Cart discounts, free items, etc. You can do what you want in your store. If I offer a "free item" next to said Glock, I'm violating their MAP if I advertise it but fine if doing in store. Overall, though, items with strong MAP enforcements are typically sold at a MAP price across the board unless an in-store promotion or something is happening. The only companies that really enforce their MAP, though, are Glock, Sig, Holosun, and Leupold (in my experience, so far). Other companies couldn't be bothered.

@drgrant
So - here is an interesting scenario. Sellers are forced to ask for MAP, when they are actually more than happy to sell at a lower price (because they would make more money from volume). Knowing this, would it still be a "retard skin flint act" to try for a more reasonable price acceptable to both?

 

[ziffusion]

I think there are some people who get their dopamine hits from knowing they got the absolutely lowest price possible on something, no matter how much time and long-run money they've lost.

That's both me and my wife Sometimes, I'll be doing it and say to myself that it's not worth it, and I still can't stop doing it.
I think this comes from the reptilian brain - because it is a well known fact that reptiles used to love bargaining.

 

[drgrant]

@drgrant
So - here is an interesting scenario. Sellers are forced to ask for MAP, when they are actually more than happy to sell at a lower price (because they would make more money from volume). Knowing this, would it still be a "retard skin flint act" to try for a more reasonable price acceptable to both?

If a seller is willing to go below MAP they're going to offer it to you at the point of purchase EG something like a cash discount or similar. Or these are things that you get from talking to the dealer on the phone like a human for 5 minutes as opposed to just pressing buttons on the internet. I've been given lots of discounts without having to specifically ask for them. Or you can pitch it in a different way. For example if you go on GunBroker and you're willing to pay for a gun with PMOs you might be able to get the seller to dump tax or whatever, or cheaper shipping/discount for no CC overhead, gb fees, etc. You might not be able to get the price of the item change but more often than not whenever you can cut out fees for the seller they're going to at least pass that on to you unless they're retarded.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

What does that mean?

Hero 5

 

[ziffusion]

If a seller is willing to go below MAP they're going to offer it to you at the point of purchase EG something like a cash discount or similar. Or these are things that you get from talking to the dealer on the phone like a human for 5 minutes as opposed to just pressing buttons on the internet. I've been given lots of discounts without having to specifically ask for them. Or you can pitch it in a different way. For example if you go on GunBroker and you're willing to pay for a gun with PMOs you might be able to get the seller to dump tax or whatever, or cheaper shipping/discount for no CC overhead, gb fees, etc. You might not be able to get the price of the item change but more often than not whenever you can cut out fees for the seller they're going to at least pass that on to you unless they're retarded.

I see.
It seems like you are saying that it's OK to bargain (in some situations) when you think it's OK. Otherwise, it's just a "retard skinflint act".
I am beginning to see how this works.

 

[drgrant]

That's both me and my wife Sometimes, I'll be doing it and say to myself that it's not worth it, and I still can't stop doing it.
I think this comes from the reptilian brain - because it is a well known fact that reptiles used to love bargaining.

Just be careful because this usually comes off as being a large type douchebag. People in most retail/service sense this. Especially if the product isn't something high margin. It can literally end up screwing you later in all kinds of ways. The staff will detect this and sometimes even make a game out of it to your detriment.

Like don't act like you're inside a store selling diamonds or cars or something because most retail is not like that at all. There isn't thousands of dollars of margin to play with there...

 

[DW357]

One of the issues with pricing and answering the "what's the best you can do" or "will you give me a deal" question is that it frequently is the start of a price war between other dealers, of which nothing can be gained. Yesterday, I quoted someone a price. It's MAP price, which I think equates to a "fair" profit. A few minutes later, they call back and say someone is offering it $3 cheaper. I politely said, "Good for you. Glad you found it at a better price. Thank you for your inquiry." An hour later, same person calls back and says "They got the price wrong, it's actually more, but since they thought they quoted me that price, can you match it." I politely explained that if an item as a MAP price, that is what we sell the item for.

Before I knew it, 30+ minutes of my life had gone by over someone wanting to go get something for $3 lower because of a fictitious quote he received from somewhere else.

Similar story: $5 haggling over a case of ammo until I pointed out that they would have to pay shipping on the case.

When I was merely a firearm owner, I would go to shops that had good service overall, even if that meant I paid a bit more. Building a good relationship with a shop/business of any kind gets you a lot more time and money saved in the long-run.

What's interesting about all of this is that you can go online and find the market price for almost anything. Factor in shipping costs + transfer fees, and you have what the lowest price is already (this has been somewhat distorted by the dropship FFLs that cut MAP or sell at dealer cost + a fee, but that gets remedied quickly by shops refusing or increasing their transfer fee prices).

Good lord. f***in skinflints. They’ll waste hours to try and save a dollar

 

[Grendizer138]

I see.
It seems like you are saying that it's OK to bargain (in some situations) when you think it's OK. Otherwise, it's just a "retard skinflint act".
I am beginning to see how this works.

Now you’re just rubber-lipping.

 

[ziffusion]

Just be careful because this usually comes off as being a large type douchebag.

I see how you read that. I meant researching on the Internet etc. - not squeezing or harassing in an already low margin situation.

 

[drgrant]

I see.
It seems like you are saying that it's OK to bargain (in some situations) when you think it's OK. Otherwise, it's just a "retard skinflint act".
I am beginning to see how this works.

There are ways to do it without being offensive about it and then there are other ways to do it where you're going to get flagged as a rube I'll just put it that way. Also at some point or another, equity and reputation matters a lot especially if you expect to get more than a few points. Relationships matter a lot. If you don't have any of that kind of rapport or anything like that you're not going to have a lot of leverage in terms of getting a larger discount.

There are some discounts that I get on on non gun things that would make skin flints f***ing livid that they can't get anything that deep and you know how I earn those discounts? By showing up , buying shit, (in some cases, tipping very well) and not being a f***ing a**h***.

 

[ziffusion]

There are some discounts that I get on on non gun things that would make skin flints f***ing livid that they can't get anything that deep and you know how I earn those discounts? By showing up , buying shit, (in some cases, tipping very well) and not being a f***ing a**h***.

Oh my God, you are so great. Just the perfect balance of skin-flinting and non-skin-flinting - with perfect situational awareness about how much to skin-flint and when. Really awesome. You have to wonder how God even made a specimen as perfect as you. Remarkable. Really incredible.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

@drgrant
So - here is an interesting scenario. Sellers are forced to ask for MAP, when they are actually more than happy to sell at a lower price (because they would make more money from volume). Knowing this, would it still be a "retard skin flint act" to try for a more reasonable price acceptable to both?

Sellers are forced to advertise MAP. What they sell it for is a different story. Competing on price is the worst way to do so. Guns are elastic goods - they are sensitive to the economy, meaning there is only a limited number of buyers at a time, and prices falling may increase sales but not long-run profit. As your margins get lower, your cost of goods acquisitions increases, as does your cost of capital (if you're running any of your business on credit terms, which many are). Pretty soon, you're out of business. We would all aggressively undercut each other if it were as easy as "the lower I go, more guns I sell" I've seen shops try and do this, and they don't last long. Shops that charge market to slightly above market rates stay around a lot longer. The biggest retailers of firearms in America charge MAP+ pricing as part of their business model, stock a limited number of SKUs, and compete by offering intangibles like an easy checkout process, a friendly environment, a good return policy, etc.

With the margins on many of the most popular firearms being relatively low to the cost, I don't think any shop is "more than happy" to charger under MAP on an individual basis. If they are that happy about it, they are going to zero very fast.

 

[drgrant]

Oh my God, you are so great. Just the perfect balance of skin-flinting and non-skin-flinting - with perfect situational awareness about how much to skin-flint and when. Really awesome. You have to wonder how God even made a specimen as perfect as you. Remarkable. Really incredible.

You can't call it a flint job if you get a discount without even asking for it though.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

Good lord. f***in skinflints. They’ll waste hours to try and save a dollar

Their neurochemistry likely mimics that of someone with addictive-type neural pathways.

 

[ziffusion]

Sellers are forced to advertise MAP. What they sell it for is a different story. Competing on price is the worst way to do so. Guns are elastic goods - they are sensitive to the economy, meaning there is only a limited number of buyers at a time, and prices falling may increase sales but not long-run profit. As your margins get lower, your cost of goods acquisitions increases, as does your cost of capital (if you're running any of your business on credit terms, which many are). Pretty soon, you're out of business. We would all aggressively undercut each other if it were as easy as "the lower I go, more guns I sell" I've seen shops try and do this, and they don't last long. Shops that charge market to slightly above market rates stay around a lot longer. The biggest retailers of firearms in America charge MAP+ pricing as part of their business model, stock a limited number of SKUs, and compete by offering intangibles like an easy checkout process, a friendly environment, a good return policy, etc.

With the margins on many of the most popular firearms being relatively low to the cost, I don't think any shop is "more than happy" to charger under MAP on an individual basis. If they are that happy about it, they are going to zero very fast.

Notwithstanding that excellent long dissertation, the fact is that a lot of sellers running a good business do sell below MAP and thrive.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

If a seller is willing to go below MAP they're going to offer it to you at the point of purchase EG something like a cash discount or similar. Or these are things that you get from talking to the dealer on the phone like a human for 5 minutes as opposed to just pressing buttons on the internet. I've been given lots of discounts without having to specifically ask for them. Or you can pitch it in a different way. For example if you go on GunBroker and you're willing to pay for a gun with PMOs you might be able to get the seller to dump tax or whatever, or cheaper shipping/discount for no CC overhead, gb fees, etc. You might not be able to get the price of the item change but more often than not whenever you can cut out fees for the seller they're going to at least pass that on to you unless they're retarded.

Having a customer-dealer relationship in good standing is very undervalued. I can't speak for all dealers, but I enjoy trying to get respectful customers good deals on things. I think if you run a business the right way, the money comes. So absent making it rich immediately, I can't think of another reason why you'd want to be an FFL/dealer if not for wanting to help others.

 

[ziffusion]

@michaelpelosillc PM sent.

 

[michaelpelosillc]

Notwithstanding that excellent long dissertation, the fact is that a lot of sellers running a good business do sell below MAP and thrive.

There is a difference between selling below MAP or some price floor and offering discounts/value additions/ free items to a total cart. The latter is tried and true - you have sell X which brings an item below MAP along with other items in the cart. Typically, those other items were already marked above the price floor needed by the business to preserve a margin, so all parties benefit. The former could be true, but would require more evidence/discussion to make sure we are apples-to-apples comparing.

Regardless, competing on pricing is failed business model, and the businesses that try and do that, no matter what the industry, eventually go to zero. This is an indisputable law of business. There is nothing past zero.

 

[drgrant]

Their neurochemistry likely mimics that of someone with addictive-type neural pathways.

It is weird, I have some flints in my circles of friends, thankfully of the less aggressive variety, and its not always consistent, I have a few that are ex-alkies, and then others that one would call "Straight and very boring" eg, don't drink don't smoke, don't gamble. But theres definitely a weird distinction between the level/tier of flint that I can't really nail down. I don't know any
obnoxious flints on a personal/friend level so I don't know what their thing is. Maybe they are like the others but just more socially inept or something.

 

[drgrant]

Regardless, competing on pricing is failed business model, and the businesses that try and do that, no matter what the industry, eventually go to zero. This is an indisputable law of business. There is nothing past zero.

I mean there are obvious limits though in the other direction. Like for example, I cant take a shop seriously if I walk into it and I see every gun in the store hovering around MSRP. Thats usually a "look around, see if theres any value at all, turn around, leave and never come back" type moment. But the market usually will smoke those people out on its own accord.

I agree with you on that end though... like I dont get these people who think that whoring themselves out to make $25 on a gun somehow think thats a great economic decision. that's basically just DSP, aka "dick self punching". like why bother?

 

[michaelpelosillc]

I mean there are obvious limits though in the other direction. Like for example, I cant take a shop seriously if I walk into it and I see every gun in the store hovering around MSRP. Thats usually a "look around, see if theres any value at all, turn around, leave and never come back" type moment. But the market usually will smoke those people out on its own accord.

I agree with you on that end though... like I dont get these people who think that whoring themselves out to make $25 on a gun somehow think thats a great economic decision. that's basically just DSP, aka "dick self punching". like why bother?

I agree. Even the manufacturers don't expect you to sell at MSRP. And they do go to zero, too. The only people doing the $25 a gun thing are the home based FFLs. I maintain that if an actual gun store is willing to go that low as part of their pricing strategy, something is wrong.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

No, no. I am being told that that is a "retarded skin-flint act". It simply cannot, must not be done.

My wife saw a painting in a gallery for $1200 she really liked. I told the owner "Make me an offer I can't refuse and I won't". I was hoping for $100 off. He responded with $900.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I agree. Even the manufacturers don't expect you to sell at MSRP. And they do go to zero, too. The only people doing the $25 a gun thing are the home based FFLs. I maintain that if an actual gun store is willing to go that low as part of their pricing strategy, something is wrong.

Except Surefire, Oakley and a few others.

The tricky part for dealers - customer wants a transfer from a non-retail source (out of state friend transferring a handgun) or something unusual they do not sell. How hard to you hammer the customer when it's not a "beat your price" deal but something that does not parallel what you do when selling a gun.

I gladly paid GFA in Natick $35 each to transfer a couple of 1911oid frames.

 

[ziffusion]

This is an indisputable law of business. There is nothing past zero.

Business is a bit more complicated, unfortunately. Stores have loss-leaders - right? Turns out you can go past zero on individual transactions.

 

[Mesatchornug]

My wife saw a painting in a gallery for $1200 she really liked. I told the owner "Make me an offer I can't refuse and I won't". I was hoping for $100 off. He responded with $900.

Is art now a commodity?

@drgrant why fight? He's obviously right. With the present display of negotiation prowess, surely our self-declared, uneducated consumer will build immediate rapport with his unwitting dealer by uttering those magic words. Then he can really feel proud of having gotten one over on the knuckle-dragging, gun-toting community on his one and only firearm purchase. His skills are further evidenced by all the posters tripping over themselves to help answer his queries that clearly aren't discussed in previous threads on this forum and others.

We are outclassed.

 

[ziffusion]

Good lord. f***in skinflints. They’ll waste hours to try and save a dollar

I think the skin-flints might think you are f***in moron for leaving cash on the table out of a misplaced sense of manliness. Keep in mind that this is ethos is actually cultivated carefully by the marketing machine, so you will not argue about the absurd prices you may be asked to pay. Sheep.