NH FFL's and Paper Driver's Licenses

[GLOCK-22]

1) It would be f***ing stupid for me to go out of my way to leave a state with no sales tax, and go buy something in a state that charges like 8%.

2) where is that time limit codified? Anywhere?

3) I could make a purchase in ME with my passport and tax bill (or, if we want to get fancy...I could use my tax bill to register my car, then use the car reg). The law even uses passports as an example. Why would an out-of-state ID be any different?

4) AGAIN, the ID you give the FFL doesn’t need to be a singular document. It can be several that contain the necessary information in aggregate.

But hey, if you want to turn away legitimate sales, be my guest.

So the best of all this is you haven't bought any out of state guns but your still going to tell me how to do it with a passport and a tax bill when I have bought guns out of state and I have done 4473 - NICS checks.

Jist because a deal will sell you a guns with a tax bill does not mean it correct or that the dealer is following the law but it does mean that you're breaking the law because you haven't been a resident for more than 90 days and you're lying.

I am done with you beacuse there is no getting through to somebody who has no clue and doesn't know the laws.

 

[atmay]

So the best of all this is you haven't bought any out of state guns but your still going to tell me how to do it with a passport and a tax bill when I have bought guns out of state and I have done 4473 - NICS checks.

Jist because a deal will sell you a guns with a tax bill does not mean it correct or that the dealer is following the law but it does mean that you're breaking the law because you haven't been a resident for more than 90 days and you're lying.

I am done with you beacuse there is no getting through to somebody who has no clue and doesn't know the laws.

I’m the one that doesn’t know the laws? LMAO.

Can you tell me why the ATF says tax bills are okay, if they’re not?

https://www.atf.gov/file/83651/download

And can you tell me why you’re trying to apply a section of the law that only applies to aliens, to everyone else? Did your mom refuse to help you read that other thing?

 

[GLOCK-22]

I’m the one that doesn’t know the laws? LMAO.

Can you tell me why the ATF says tax bills are okay, if they’re not?

https://www.atf.gov/file/83651/download

And can you tell me why you’re trying to apply a section of the law that only applies to aliens, to everyone else? Did your mom refuse to help you read that other thing?

And yes you can own a home and stay there in the summer called at your residence and then you can buy a gun and that other state or you can have that house and live there every weekend and buy a gun.

But all this isn't about buying a gun and what is your residence all this is the proof of your residence and without proof that you actually reside there you're not able to buy a gun that book is from 2005 the nics system has changed since then so now if your resident address is not on your identification you cannot do a nics check which means you cannot buy a gun.

 

[AHM]

As for gov't docs to prove NH residency the only thing I currently have is a deed since I'm on well water (no bill) and RE tax was paid by closing company just days after the closing on the house (so I won't see a RE tax bill with my name on it until probably June)?

Maybe your NH town clerk will give you a hardcopy statement with your new addr
to the effect that you have a zero outstanding balance on your residential real estate taxes.

I don't know if that's a thing.
But there could be all sorts of reasons
for them to issue an interim statement like that.
(Say, to pry funds out of a mortgage escrow account
that had been improperly withheld for taxes that are already paid).

 

[atmay]

And yes you can own a home and stay there in the summer called at your residence and then you can buy a gun and that other state or you can have that house and live there every weekend and buy a gun.

But all this isn't about buying a gun and what is your residence all this is the proof of your residence and without proof that you actually reside there you're not able to buy a gun that book is from 2005 the nics system has changed since then so now if your resident address is not on your identification you cannot do a nics check which means you cannot buy a gun.

And here we go again. The ATFs position (and you posted the information earlier in the thread, too), is that multiple documents may be used in aggregate as “ID”.

You do NOT need to have one singular ID with all the information on it. It doesn’t matter if it’s because it’s outdated, or simply not there (ie passport doesn’t have your address).

As long as the buyer has valid govt issued documents bearing their name, photograph, DOB, and current address, they have met the requirements, and you may proceed with the sale.

If you think the law, regulations, or ATF guidance states or implies otherwise, I would again suggest reading slowly and asking your mother for assistance.

 

[atmay]

Maybe your NH town clerk will give you a hardcopy statement with your new addr
to the effect that you have a zero outstanding balance on your residential real estate taxes.

I don't know if that's a thing.
But there could be all sorts of reasons
for them to issue an interim statement like that.
(Say, to pry funds out of a mortgage escrow account
that had been improperly withheld for taxes that are already paid).

I’ve done this with my ME property.

 

[atmay]

And yes you can own a home and stay there in the summer called at your residence and then you can buy a gun and that other state or you can have that house and live there every weekend and buy a gun.

But all this isn't about buying a gun and what is your residence all this is the proof of your residence and without proof that you actually reside there you're not able to buy a gun that book is from 2005 the nics system has changed since then so now if your resident address is not on your identification you cannot do a nics check which means you cannot buy a gun.

Speaking of buying guns, where is your shop located? And what’s the name?

You know, so we can all avoid it, and you. Unless someone here wants to needlessly get turned away. I guess if you’re into that type of thing, your shop might be the place to go.

 

[CrackPot]

I would accept a paper drivers license as proof of residency. I would still require an unexpired, government issued, picture ID to satisfy the ID requirement.

 

[JayMcB]

If you have a tax bill for a residence, not just property (NH for example), and you are staying there, that makes it your residence.

You can purchase a handgun. The FFL I bought my P365 from in NH told the NICS/ATF guy straight out what was happening when he called in the 4473, and I got a proceed with no issues

 

[atmay]

If you have a tax bill for a residence, not just property (NH for example), and you are staying there, that makes it your residence.

You can purchase a handgun. The FFL I bought my P365 from in NH told the NICS/ATF guy straight out what was happening when he called in the 4473, and I got a proceed with no issues

@GLOCK-22 says it’s not possible, bruh.

Cool story, tho.

 

[JayMcB]

My Sig P365 Would disagree. So would the handful of other firearms I've done, the same way

 

[atmay]

My Sig P365 Would disagree. So would the handful of other firearms I've done, the same way

Federal law would also disagree, but apparently that doesn’t mean much to him, either.

 

[GLOCK-22]

What form of identification must a licensee obtain from a transferee of a firearm?

The identification document presented by the transferee must have a photograph of the transferee, as well as the transferee’s name, RESIDENCE ADDRESS, and date of birth. The identification document must also be VALID (e.g., UNEXPIRED) and have been issued by a GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY FOR THE PURPOSE OF IDENTIFICATIO of individuals. An example of an acceptable identification document is a current driver’s license.

A combination of government issued documents may be used to meet the requirements of an identification document. For example, a passport which contains the name, date of birth, and photograph of the holder may be combined with a VOTER or VEHICLE REGISTRATION CARD CONTAINING THE RESIDENCE ADDRESS of the transferee in order to comply with the identification document requirements. A passport issued by a foreign government is also acceptable so long as it has all of the required information.

Just because some dealer in NH did it doesn't mean it was correct or all dealers will do it.

If you have a tax bill for a residence, not just property (NH for example), and you are staying there, that makes it your residence.

You can purchase a handgun. The FFL I bought my P365 from in NH told the NICS/ATF guy straight out what was happening when he called in the 4473, and I got a proceed with no issues

And what form of ID did you give with your tax bill.

 

[GLOCK-22]

Federal law would also disagree, but apparently that doesn’t mean much to him, either.

And you still don't get the point or understand you can use any ID you want as long as it's a accepted government ID but you still need proof of residence and all my point is a tax bill is not proof of residence because you can have tax bill for property in all 50 states but you can't technically be a resident of all 50 states thats why it says a voter registration or a vehicle registration because you can only be registered in one state so that is what the ATF is saying is you residence so you don't pull some shit amd buy guns all over the country and just say hay MR GUN DEALER I just moved here sell me a gun here is a tax bill.

But if you don't believe me I can give you the phone number to the ATF or a IOI officer and you can ask him.

 

[atmay]

And you still don't get the point or understand you can use any ID you want as long as it's a accepted government ID but you still need proof of residence and all my point is a tax bill is not proof of residence because you can have tax bill for property in all 50 states but you can't technically be a resident of all 50 states thats why it says a voter registration or a vehicle registration because you can only be registered in one state so that is what the ATF is saying is you residence so you don't pull some shit amd buy guns all over the country and just say hay MR GUN DEALER I just moved here sell me a gun here is a tax bill.

But if you don't believe me I can give you the phone number to the ATF or a IOI officer and you can ask him.

ATF ruling 2001-5 (which I linked to in a previous post) states very specifically that tax bills, are, in fact, an acceptable form of proof of residency. 2001-5 is still in effect, and has not been modified, clarified, or superseded by any other ruling.

ETA: what you posted says what it says because it’s giving EXAMPLES. It says EXAMPLE. Not “exhaustive listing”.

 

[atmay]

And you still don't get the point or understand you can use any ID you want as long as it's a accepted government ID but you still need proof of residence and all my point is a tax bill is not proof of residence because you can have tax bill for property in all 50 states but you can't technically be a resident of all 50 states thats why it says a voter registration or a vehicle registration because you can only be registered in one state so that is what the ATF is saying is you residence so you don't pull some shit amd buy guns all over the country and just say hay MR GUN DEALER I just moved here sell me a gun here is a tax bill.

But if you don't believe me I can give you the phone number to the ATF or a IOI officer and you can ask him.

Also, are you NOW saying that dual residency isn’t a thing? Because 27 CFR 478.11 says it is.

 

[GLOCK-22]

Also, are you NOW saying that dual residency isn’t a thing? Because 27 CFR 478.11 says it is.

I never said DUAL residence isn't a thing..
I said having multiple residence like trying to say you have 5-10-20 different residence in different states I don't think that will make the sniff test.

 

[atmay]

thats why it says a voter registration or a vehicle registration because you can only be registered in one state so that is what the ATF is saying is you residence

No, what you said is this.

 

[GLOCK-22]

ATF ruling 2001-5 (which I linked to in a previous post) states very specifically that tax bills, are, in fact, an acceptable form of proof of residency. 2001-5 is still in effect, and has not been modified, clarified, or superseded by any other ruling.

ETA: what you posted says what it says because it’s giving EXAMPLES. It says EXAMPLE. Not “exhaustive listing”.

ATF 2001-5 ruling that has to do with military service members I didn't know we were talking about military service member sorry I take it all back.

 

[atmay]

ATF 2001-5 ruling that has to do with military service members I didn't know we were talking about military service member sorry I take it all back.

It deals with .mil, yes. But it also deals with what is or isn’t acceptable for identifying documents for all purchasers.

Have you actually read it?

Can you, actually? Read, that is.

 

[drgrant]

glock-22 it might be best to stop digging, that hole is going to collapse around you.

If NES had a sportsbook I'd put $500 on Atmay, right now...


-Mike

 

[atmay]

glock-22 it might be best to stop digging, that hole is going to collapse around you.

If NES had a sportsbook I'd put $500 on Atmay, right now...


-Mike

The sad part is, he apparently runs a gun shop somewhere.

 

[GLOCK-22]

ATF ruling 2001-5 (which I linked to in a previous post) states very specifically that tax bills, are, in fact, an acceptable form of proof of residency. 2001-5 is still in effect, and has not been modified, clarified, or superseded by any other ruling.

ETA: what you posted says what it says because it’s giving EXAMPLES. It says EXAMPLE. Not “exhaustive listing”.

No just messing with you i know it's not for just military members.

And this whole thing started out because some one didn't have a valid ID or a proof of residence.

But I haven't dealt with ID not matching up and i do all my 4473 on the computer so when you do it on the computer it won't let you do a 4473 if the ID isn't there currant address.

So maybe if you call it in and talk to someone live and they know all info then they might let it go through so my fault for not clarifying that it is not possible with a electronic 4473.

 

[GLOCK-22]

glock-22 it might be best to stop digging, that hole is going to collapse around you.

If NES had a sportsbook I'd put $500 on Atmay, right now...


-Mike

I am not digging a whole I can refuse business from any one I want.

It all depends on where you are buying the gun from because some FFL dealers will and some won't do the sale.

But if it was me i would need multiple forms of ID or proof of recedince to sell some one something when things didn't look right because if something is wrong and the person lied or had false ID or info the ATF would have no recourse on the person lying unless they caught them red handed but they would have recourse on me by not renewing my FFL.

And it still all depends on what state your in trying to by a gun with an ID that doesn't show that state as ypur residence because it will still depend on state law and laws because some states will have laws that a tax bill is not proof of residence.

Like try to go buy a gun in Ma with a NH drivers licence and a tax bill or try it on NY RI CT NJ CA and let me know where your at if you where able to buy any gun.

 

[drgrant]

I am not digging a whole I can refuse business from any one I want.

It all depends on where you are buying the gun from because some FFL dealers will and some won't do the sale.

policy not law

But if it was me i would need multiple forms of ID or proof of recedince to sell some one something when things didn't look right because if something is wrong and the person lied or had false ID or info the ATF would have no recourse on the person lying unless they caught them red handed but they would have recourse on me by not renewing my FFL.

That's you and that's "store policy" not LAW. Big difference between the two.

And it still all depends on what state your in trying to by a gun with an ID that doesn't show that state as ypur residence because it will still depend on state law and laws because some states will have laws that a tax bill is not proof of residence.

Yeah that's state law, we're talking federal law, which NH doesn't have much requirement beyond it's template.

Like try to go buy a gun in Ma with a NH drivers licence and a tax bill or try it on NY RI CT NJ CA and let me know where your at.

Shit analogy, consideirng that MA has additional requirements beyond residency... and all those states you mentioned are garbage states like MA that have extra requirements.

-Mike

 

[Racenet]

Build the wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GLOCK-22]

policy not law

[QUOTE[
But if it was me i would need multiple forms of ID or proof of recedince to sell some one something when things didn't look right because if something is wrong and the person lied or had false ID or info the ATF would have no recourse on the person lying unless they caught them red handed but they would have recourse on me by not renewing my FFL.

That's you and that's "store policy" not LAW. Big difference between the two.



Yeah that's state law, we're talking federal law, which NH doesn't have much requirement beyond it's template.



Shit analogy, consideirng that MA has additional requirements beyond residency... and all those states you mentioned are garbage states like MA that have extra requirements.

-Mike[/QUOTE]

I am a big man and I can admit when i am wrong I was going off Ma laws not NH laws and I did not realize that a tax bill would be good for proof of residence because its not good in Ma as proof.

And i really didn't think it was good for the Feds I really thought you had to have a state ID that was currant or a voter registration or a vehicle registration some thing like that.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

When you go get a drivers licence they give you a paper licence till the real thing comes in.

If you look over the paper licence it says on it not valid for ID.

So me as a dealer and any smart dealer would not take the paper ID because its really not valid and it's only a temporary licence.

No where on the NH paper license does it say "not valid for ID". That's also why I posed the question for NH dealers.

Do any of you who are FFL's in NH recognize the paper driver's licenses? Or are you required to wait for the customer to get their "plastic" one? Will the Feds recognize this as valid ID for firearms purchases?

 

[AHM]

... you can't technically be a resident of all 50 states ...

False.

Imagine that Ray Kroc was still alive,
and he was leading the McDonald's empire via "managing by walking around".

In particular pretend he spent a week inspecting stores in each state
(then taking two weeks off for vacation).

Pretend that he personally owned 50 condos in all 50 states' capitals,
where he camped out for that one week a year when in-state.

Ray Kroc would be a resident of all 50 states for ATF purposes.

ETA: And if you don't believe that,
imagine that he owned 50 condos,
and spent 3 months a year fixing the crappiest restaurant in the chain,
and then moved on to the next crappiest restaurant.

He'd still be able reside in any state.

 

[AHM]

Do any of you who are FFL's in NH recognize the paper driver's licenses? Or are you required to wait for the customer to get their "plastic" one? Will the Feds recognize this as valid ID for firearms purchases?

(I'm sure your eyes have glazed over by this point, but) like I asked you last night...

Were you trying to use the temp. paper DL as proof of who you are,
or as proof that you really live where you said you do?

A prudent NH FFL who doesn't know you personally
will want to be sure of the answer to both questions.

If your paper DL is the only government-issued document
that proves you have a residence in NH,
then it'll be necessary for you to flash it.

If your paper DL doesn't include a photo
to prove that you are the person named on it,
then it'll be insufficient for you to just flash it.