NH FFL's and Paper Driver's Licenses

[GLOCK-22]

False.

Imagine that Ray Kroc was still alive,
and he was leading the McDonald's empire via "managing by walking around".

In particular pretend he spent a week inspecting stores in each state
(then taking two weeks off for vacation).

Pretend that he personally owned 50 condos in all 50 states' capitals,
where he camped out for that one week a year when in-state.

Ray Kroc would be a resident of all 50 states for ATF purposes.

ETA: And if you don't believe that,
imagine that he owned 50 condos,
and spent 3 months a year fixing the crappiest restaurant in the chain,
and then moved on to the next crappiest restaurant.

He'd still be able reside in any state.

Yes kinda possible in theory but I still doubt that anyone could actual get away with that if some one at the DOJ or ATF really knew what you where doing plus I am sure there is definitely state laws that prohibit it.

So your whole scenario is like a JFK magic bullet hitting 3 people left then right then left then right again and if you really think only one bullet killed JFK the it's like a elephant can hang from a dandylion by its tail off the side of a cliff and not fall in theory it's possible but in reality it will never happen.

 

[drgrant]

Yes kinda possible in theory but I still doubt that anyone could actual get away with that if some one at the DOJ or ATF really knew what you where doing plus I am sure there is definitely state laws that prohibit it.

.

Give me enough money to cover the costs (outside of the guns, because thatd be a straw) and I will prove it to you that it's possible the only condition is that the states in question are not communist... you could easily do it in at least a couple dozen states, probably many more with minor tweaks or more time. Residency for purposes of purchasing a firearm is not really a big deal...people turn it into this excessively complex thing that it really isn't.

 

[GLOCK-22]

No where on the NH paper license does it say "not valid for ID". That's also why I posed the question for NH dealers.

Do any of you who are FFL's in NH recognize the paper driver's licenses? Or are you required to wait for the customer to get their "plastic" one? Will the Feds recognize this as valid ID for firearms purchases?

Yes sorry you asked NH FFL.

But like I said if a dealer no matter what state the dealer is from does a electronic 4473 the very first question it asks the dealer is does the address on the ID the same as the buyers currant address so when he says no it's different the system shuts down and does not allow the dealer to do a 4473.

So that dealer or even many dealers might not want to deal with it because it's not worth it to get a glitch from the ATF and chance loosing there FFL over 50 dollars.

 

[GLOCK-22]

Give me enough money to cover the costs (outside of the guns, because thatd be a straw) and I will prove it to you that it's possible the only condition is that the states in question are not communist... you could easily do it in at least a couple dozen states, probably many more with minor tweaks or more time. Residency for purposes of purchasing a firearm is not really a big deal...people turn it into this excessively complex thing that it really isn't.

If you say so I don't think it's really possible because it's really far fetched look the OP is having a hard time in one state that he really lives in and you think your going to just be able to do it in a dozen states easy peasy I still don't think so.

 

[drgrant]

If you say so I don't think it's really possible because it's really far fetched look the OP is having a hard time in one state that he really lives in and you think your going to just be able to do it in a dozen states easy peasy I still don't think so.

A couple stores with shit policy does not make for a great blanket statement. Anyone with a telephone and a brain can usually find at least a good handful of dealers in every state that actually understand federal law properly...

 

[GLOCK-22]

A couple stores with shit policy does not make for a great blanket statement. Anyone with a telephone and a brain can usually find at least a good handful of dealers in every state that actually understand federal law properly...

I will give you the numbers of some IOI officers and you can ask them and see what they say.

I like a lot of dealers do electronic 4437 and when addresses don't match up and the E-4473 don't go through they don't want to be bothered because it's not worth it.

 

[drgrant]

I will give you the numbers of some IOI officers and you can ask them and see what they say.

After hearing an ATF agent on the phone give a dealer blantantly incorrect legal information no thanks, I'll pass on that.... that's almost as bad as calling the CJIS hotline and asking for legal advice.....

-Mike

 

[AHM]

But like I said if a dealer no matter what state the dealer is from does a electronic 4473 the very first question it asks the dealer is does the address on the ID the same as the buyers currant address so when he says no it's different the system shuts down and does not allow the dealer to do a 4473.

ATF E-Form 4473 (5300.9)
Revised October 2016
...
Question 2. Current Residence Address:
... If the transferee/buyer has two States of residence, the transferee/
buyer should list his/her current residence address in response to
question 2 (e.g., if the transferee/buyer is purchasing a firearm while staying at
his/her weekend home in State X, he/she should list the address in State X in
response to question 2).​

Italics by ATF.

 

[GLOCK-22]

After hearing an ATF agent on the phone give a dealer blantantly incorrect legal information no thanks, I'll pass on that.... that's almost as bad as calling the CJIS hotline and asking for legal advice.....

-Mike

Yes I do have to agree with you on.

There the ones who are supposed to know and it seems more times then not they have no clue.

 

[CrackPot]

No where on the NH paper license does it say "not valid for ID". That's also why I posed the question for NH dealers.

Do any of you who are FFL's in NH recognize the paper driver's licenses? Or are you required to wait for the customer to get their "plastic" one? Will the Feds recognize this as valid ID for firearms purchases?

Two issues you have to address as an FFL

1. Does the buyer have valid government issued ID confirming their identity
2. Does the buyer have proof of residency for the address entered on the 4473

These are federal issues and I am ignoring ALL state laws at this point. What state you are an FFL in does not matter for the above items. MA is easy because state law says you must have resident LTC or FID which covers both federal points.

Any government ID with your picture on it satisfies 1. The paper drivers license covers 2. Not valid for ID markings on the paper drivers license is IRRELEVANT as long as it’s being used for 2 and not 1.

See the 4473 NICS check above. It asks if everything including address matches valid government ID, INCLUDING SUPPLEMENTAL documents. Reading comprehension seems difficult for some FFLs responding to this thread. The paper drivers license used for (2), to prove address, is a supplemental document.

So, it is lawful by federal law to accept the paper drivers license as a supplemental document showing address when used in conjunction with other valid government issued picture ID to prove identity.

As has been shown over and over the average NESer can’t read a long sentence before drawing a conclusion and going full retard, why should you expect the average NH FFL to understand this?

 

[GLOCK-22]

ATF E-Form 4473 (5300.9)
Revised October 2016
...
Question 2. Current Residence Address:
... If the transferee/buyer has two States of residence, the transferee/
buyer should list his/her current residence address in response to
question 2 (e.g., if the transferee/buyer is purchasing a firearm while staying at
his/her weekend home in State X, he/she should list the address in State X in
response to question 2).​

Italics by ATF.

You might be quoting a 4473 or maybe even the computer E-4473 like when you go into 4 Seasons gun shop.

I am talking about the actual NICS check dealers do on a computer and unless you are a dealer or have a account with the FBI NICS E-CHECK SYSTEM OR THE LEEP SYSTEM you have no clue what I am talking about.

 

[GLOCK-22]

Two issues you have to address as an FFL

1. Does the buyer have valid government issued ID confirming their identity
2. Does the buyer have proof of residency for the address entered on the 4473

These are federal issues and I am ignoring ALL state laws at this point. What state you are an FFL in does not matter for the above items. MA is easy because state law says you must have resident LTC or FID which covers both federal points.

Any government ID with your picture on it satisfies 1. The paper drivers license covers 2. Not valid for ID markings on the paper drivers license is IRRELEVANT as long as it’s being used for 2 and not 1.
View attachment 269445
See the 4473 NICS check above. It asks if everything including address matches valid government ID, INCLUDING SUPPLEMENTAL documents. Reading comprehension seems difficult for some FFLs responding to this thread. The paper drivers license used for (2), to prove address, is a supplemental document.

So, it is lawful by federal law to accept the paper drivers license as a supplemental document showing address when used in conjunction with other valid government issued picture ID to prove identity.

As has been shown over and over the average NESer can’t read a long sentence before drawing a conclusion and going full retard, why should you expect the average NH FFL to understand this?

A NH Paper temp licencen might not say not valid for ID but I know that the Ma temp licence does so my mistake on that one but if the NH paper temp licence did say not valid for ID then as a FFL dealer in NH you could not use it because it technically not a valid ID and the federal law says it has to be a valid government issued ID.

 

[CrackPot]

A NH Paper temp licencen might not say not valid for ID but I know that the Ma temp licence does so my mistake on that one but if the NH paper temp licence did say not valid for ID then as a FFL dealer in NH you could not use it because it technically not a valid ID and the federal law says it has to be a valid government issued ID.

You could not use it as ID proving identity, you can use it as proof of address/residency. It’s the same as a tax bill or water bill. It shows address. You still need a picture ID for identity.

 

[Racenet]

 

[GLOCK-22]

You could not use it as ID proving identity, you can use it as proof of address/residency. It’s the same as a tax bill or water bill. It shows address. You still need a picture ID for identity.

Ok so a NH paper licence would be good for proof of address but here is where I am a dick becauae i was assuming it said no valid for ID like the Ma temp licence did.

So if a NH temp licence said not valid for ID like the MA temp licence would a dealer then be able to accept it.

 

[Racenet]

Ok so a NH paper licence would be good for proof of address but hear is where I am a dick becauae i was assuming it said no valid for ID like the Ma temp licence did.

So if a NH temp licence said not valid for ID like the MA temp licence would a dealer then be able to accept it.

Yes, for proof of address only.

 

[AHM]

... a ... water bill ... shows address. You still need a picture ID for identity.

 

[AHM]

You might be quoting a 4473 or maybe even the computer E-4473 like when you go into 4 Seasons gun shop.

I am talking about the actual NICS check dealers do on a computer and unless you are a dealer or have a account with the FBI NICS E-CHECK SYSTEM OR THE LEEP SYSTEM you have no clue what I am talking about.

Yahbut if the FBI NICS E-CHECK SYSTEM OR THE LEEP SYSTEM
actually says what you think you remember it saying,
then you should file a computer problem report on the system,
because the verbiage doesn't match the law and is misleading you.

I bet civil service computer guys love getting paid
to add half a sentence to an existing PRINT statement.


(For the record, I actually did once wade through
ATF documentation on the exact process followed for NICS checks,
to satisfy myself about some obscure corner of that law.
Might have been about middle names or SSNs,
or maybe something else entirely.

I've seen crappier documents -
I really did find the definitive advice that ATF gives FFLs.

But it took enough time that
I need more motivation than this thread delivers
to go on another safari like that).

 

[rcoolbaugh]

I got denied with a paper license in Maine when I tried to purchase alcohol.

Just turned 21, got the paper replacement when I renewed, and the cashier at the packie so no.

So YMMV.

Maine is odd ... My wife, her sister and brother in law went into a gas station in ME to buy beer .... we're all obviously over 50 ... clerk asks us for ID, my BIL doesn't have his license with him so hands his purchase to his wife. Clerk says NOPE ... can't sell to anyone since he doesn't have ID.

Drove down the road to the next gas station and he stayed in the car while we went in ....

 

[AHM]

My wife, her sister and brother in law went into a gas station in ME to buy beer ... clerk asks us for ID, my BIL doesn't have his license with him so hands his purchase to his wife. Clerk says NOPE ... can't sell to anyone since he doesn't have ID.

Drove down the road to the next gas station and he stayed in the car while we went in ....

Did the second gas station have
a big enough paper goods section that
you were able to purchase some straws
along with your straw purchase?

 

[Qwikdraw45]

(I'm sure your eyes have glazed over by this point, but) like I asked you last night...



A prudent NH FFL who doesn't know you personally
will want to be sure of the answer to both questions.

If your paper DL is the only government-issued document
that proves you have a residence in NH,
then it'll be necessary for you to flash it.

If your paper DL doesn't include a photo
to prove that you are the person named on it,
then it'll be insufficient for you to just flash it.

NH temporary licenses are an exact copy, including a picture, of what your plastic license will look for. Only difference is that there is no second address on the back (if you have a PO Box, it's on the front and you can request a physical address on the back). I made sure to put my physical address as mailing, so it's on the front, with my photo. It is the only .gov document I have that has my full name on it and legal address, so it was for both purposes. (and yes, my eyes are kind of glazed over at this point...).

 

[AHM]

NH temporary licenses are an exact copy, including a picture, of what your plastic license will look for.

Well, dang.
Some objective detailed criteria quoted literally from regs that were on point
might have been posted in the thread, but they're not jumping out at me.

 

[atmay]

Well, dang.
Some objective detailed criteria quoted literally from regs that were on point
might have been posted in the thread, but they're not jumping out at me.

I don’t remember seeing anything in my travels aside from:

-Govt issued
-name, photo, DOB, residential address
-“issued for the purpose of identification” (or similar, I might not have the exact verbiage there).
-valid and unexpired

 

[Bonesinium]

Yes kinda possible in theory but I still doubt that anyone could actual get away with that if some one at the DOJ or ATF really knew what you where doing plus I am sure there is definitely state laws that prohibit it.

You are suggesting that if someone in fact lived in each state on week(ish) each year it would be the ATF's conclusion that they are ineligible to purchase a firearm in any state?

I strongly disagree with your assessment and the suggestion living in many states and moving around makes one ineligible to purchase firearms is not consistent with previous court rulings either.

 

[drgrant]

The only time it's ever actually a problem is if you literally are an American citizen and you don't have a residency -anywhere-, like Stephen Dearth....

 

[Bonesinium]

The only time it's ever actually a problem is if you literally are an American citizen and you don't have a residency -anywhere-, like Stephen Dearth....

That case is ridiculous. It's been over a decade and as far as I can tell is still in the hands of the system. He won twice in the US Court of Appeals, but first only on the ground of having standing, and then again a second time basically saying the same thing. It's absurd. And that's how they win. With never ending bureaucracy and judicial rulings. You either run out of money, will, or die first.

 

[GLOCK-22]

You are suggesting that if someone in fact lived in each state on week(ish) each year it would be the ATF's conclusion that they are ineligible to purchase a firearm in any state?

I strongly disagree with your assessment and the suggestion living in many states and moving around makes one ineligible to purchase firearms is not consistent with previous court rulings either.

Let's go with 12 because it's an easy number to deal with.

So you own 12 houses (not just a piece of land) in 12 states different states and you live in each house (state) 1 month a per year yes I am sure you could get a way with it and buy guns in each state.

But knowing the ATF if they got wind of it and found out I am all most positive they would pull some shit and stop you saying that your a gun trafficker even if it's 100% legal by the laws that they have in place and go by.

And I am sure you could fight it but the ATF will come back and say that the law only allows dual residence so you can only be a resident in 2 states at one time and I can almost guarantee that the courts would side with the ATF.

Like I said in theory it's possible but you would get stopped if they find out.

It's just like the guy who put a vertical grip on his pistol and the ATF arrested the guy and charged him with not having a registered NFA item. The guy foaght it all the way to the Supreme Court and won and the court said that just by adding a vertical grip to a pistol does not reclassify it as a AOW NFA wepon and that you can put a vertical grip on a pistol because you can easily remove the grip and it don't reclassify the weapon.

But even thought the court ruled in the guys favor and you can put a vertical grip on a pistol with out making it a AOW and paying the $200 tax stamp the ATF said they are not going to abide by the ruling and that there position stands the same if you put a vertical grip on your pistol you have to pay a $200 Tax stamp and make your pistol a AOW or SBR.

 

[Bonesinium]

Ok, now you’re definitely just making stuff up.

 

[GLOCK-22]

Ok, now you’re definitely just making stuff up.

How am I making things up.

I have been dealing with the ATF and gun laws longer than most people so this is from experience I am probable one of only a couple if not the only one in Ma to get my FID at 16 and was buying rifles at 16 and then my LTC at 17 and was buying hand guns at 17 off freinds and 18 at dealers.

I am sure there are many people who have had there LTC longer than me but not to many people have it yonger than me.

I have ever licence under the sun except for a few crazy states like NY.

So i do know how the ATF works so you can say I am making things up but if you can't have a open mind and see my point then your one of them gun owners who believe gun registration is a good thing and that gun registration doesn't lead to gin confiscation.

 

[Bonesinium]

You have no evidence to support your conclusion and just talked about a SCOTUS case that doesn’t exist.