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NH FFL's and Paper Driver's Licenses

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Qwikdraw45, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. Qwikdraw45

    Qwikdraw45 NES Member

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    Do any of you who are FFL's in NH recognize the paper driver's licenses? Or are you required to wait for the customer to get their "plastic" one? Will the Feds recognize this as valid ID for firearms purchases?
     

  2. NickLeduc

    NickLeduc NES Member

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    Do the paper license have any type of warning on it to not use it as a valid ID? Does the paper license have a # on it for you to enter it in the NICS check?
     
  3. atmay

    atmay

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    Not perfectly relevant but related:

    When I was 18, I was attempting to withdraw some money from a trust account I had (insurance payout, not daddy’s money). The bank wouldn’t accept my learners permit as a photo ID, but did accept a paper-copy non-drivers ID.


    In your case, I would hazard a guess that it comes down to what the FFL is comfortable accepting more than it is a hard and fast rule.
     
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  4. 42!

    42! NES Life Member NES Member

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    When I moved to NH I got the paper license, used it as ID for my first NH purchase, no problem.
     
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  5. W.E.C

    W.E.C NES Member

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    Just go to Boston neighborhoods , the tv tells me the streets are paved with guns.
    And they want to get the guns off the street, so it’s a win,win.
     
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  6. Qwikdraw45

    Qwikdraw45 NES Member

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    That's what I thought. It's just a local dealer being ignorant. Thanks!
     
  7. DERBIS

    DERBIS

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    When I moved to NH, I bought from a dealer with a paper license. He had no problem with it. The fact it was paper wasn't even mentioned.
     
  8. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    It shouldn't be a problem but I know of one large dealer in NH who in the past has denied such a sale. His shop, his policy. No idea why he has that policy. Just find a dealer who will work with you. I'm going to be in that boat shortly, but unlikely to be drooling to purchase anything real soon.
     
  9. slap shot

    slap shot NES Member

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    I know I used mine...extensively! Plastic too!!! [mg]
     
  10. daddysuperfly

    daddysuperfly

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    I got denied with a paper license in Maine when I tried to purchase alcohol.

    Just turned 21, got the paper replacement when I renewed, and the cashier at the packie so no.

    So YMMV.
     
  11. SonOfAGun

    SonOfAGun NES Member

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    I asked Merrimack Firearms that question when I moved to NH last August and they said that paper is perfectly fine.

    Went straight from the RMV with my paper license and bought my first NH firearm without issue.
     
  12. ns939393

    ns939393

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    I had to fly with the paper license after moving. No problem leaving out of Manchester.
    Getting back they did question it. I had brought my birth certificate, social security card plus an expired passport.
    After I pulled out the other documents they didn't even look at them. Let me right in.

    The whole trip I was worried about getting the private room blue glove treatment.
     
  13. glide

    glide

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    Most NH dealers will accept the paper ID. If they don’t, make note to never shop there again.
     
  14. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    When you go get a drivers licence they give you a paper licence till the real thing comes in.

    If you look over the paper licence it says on it not valid for ID.

    So me as a dealer and any smart dealer would not take the paper ID because its really not valid and it's only a temporary licence.
     
  15. AHM

    AHM NES Member

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    Hey, maybe. But maybe not?

    An FFL wants to be sure that you're allowed to possess what they sell.

    Were you trying to use the temp. paper DL as proof of who you are,
    or as proof that you really live where you said you do?

    It seems to me that there's a relevant distinction there,
    even if many common forms of ID cover both bases.

    Pretty much anyone on NES can prove who they are.
    But a lot of NESers would almost give their right arm
    to convince an NH gun shop that they lived there.

    I'm not saying everyone here would jump at the chance to commit fraud -
    just that a lot of Mass. residents would love to establish a NH residence.


    (If it made a difference in my life,
    I wouldn't assume the dealer gave me the real reason.
    Depending on your viewpoint,
    you might regard the truth as reasonable,
    or even twice as heinous as "paper DL N/G").


    I'm sure it's very frustrating,
    especially if you were dying to buy that gun that day.

    I haven't happened to have been scrod that way yet on a gun buy,
    but the millennium is young.
     
  16. Qwikdraw45

    Qwikdraw45 NES Member

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    Then I guess we'll have to sue NH, since by only giving us a "fake" license, they are denying our 2nd amendment rights. Worst thing is, I have to move in another 6 weeks again and start the process all over again.
     
  17. atmay

    atmay

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    Are you staying in NH? If so, you don’t HAVE to get a new license. You can change your address with the DMV and be done with it.

    That being said, if you want to give your FFL your real address, and it’s not on your DL, you will need some other govt document with your actual addresss. Car reg, tax bill, etc.
     
  18. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    I would think that even though the paper temp licence is issued by the state it does say not valid for ID on it so as a dealer myself I would not take it because it's to easy to print one on any computer and can easily be faked.

    But that just my opinion and the only reason I would think that a dealer wouldn't take it.

    Now if they showed other ID of who they are as proof of there identity plus there temp licence as to show currant place of residence then that's a different story then I would accept that and sell but if the buyer is only showing the temporary license as proof of residence as the only form of ID then no I would not accept it for a gun sale.
     
  19. Qwikdraw45

    Qwikdraw45 NES Member

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    Don't have other documents. Vehicle is leased, so it has the lien holder's address (on both physical and mailing sections). Renting, so no tax bill, gov't water bill, etc.
     
  20. atmay

    atmay

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    Well then I guess you might want to get your license reprinted after you move.

    ETA: or just use whatever it says on your license....a strategy which may or may not work even better if you never change your addy with the dmv, either. Or so I’ve heard. Not that I’d ever suggest anyone fail to comply with the law.
     
  21. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    Since I still have a MA DL, I was unaware of the bolded part above. Like you, I can see justification in refusal based on that.

    Interesting question: I sent in my change of address for my C&R FFL just after the shutdown ended. Assuming I get the new C&R FFL in-hand prior to obtaining a real NH DL, do you think that most dealers would accept that as proof? As for gov't docs to prove NH residency the only thing I currently have is a deed since I'm on well water (no bill) and RE tax was paid by closing company just days after the closing on the house (so I won't see a RE tax bill with my name on it until probably June)?
     
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  22. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    Normally your plastic drivers licence comes in about a week so I am almost positive you will have your NH drivers licence in hand before your C&R plus I am sure most people can wait a week to by a gun if the have to.

    But if they can't wait a week then I am sure it can still be done the paper temp licence is not valid for ID to identify who you are but other government forms of ID are so if you had any other government ID it could be used.

    Here is the real issue on any ID you use when you do a NICS check the very first question it asks the dealer is does the address on the persons ID there currant address and if you put no then you can't even do a NICS check.

    So if the person comes in with a Ma drivers license as proof of who they are and a NH paper licence as proof of address then the address on the Ma drivers license is not the currant address for the buyer so as a dealer I can't do a NICS check becuse the NICS system won't let me.

    And the paper license is not technically a valid ID to use for a NICS check either but I am sure some dealers so Fck it and do them anyway.

    So the real issue is you just need any type of government issued ID that's valid as an ID to have your currant address on it.

    FROM THE ATF WEBSIGHT

    What form of identification must a licensee obtain from a transferee of a firearm?
    The identification document presented by the transferee must have a photograph of the transferee, as well as the transferee’s name, residence address, and date of birth. The identification document must also be valid (e.g., unexpired) and have been issued by a governmental entity for the purpose of identification of individuals. An example of an acceptable identification document is a current driver’s license.

    A combination of government issued documents may be used to meet the requirements of an identification document. For example, a passport which contains the name, date of birth, and photograph of the holder may be combined with a voter or vehicle registration card containing the residence address of the transferee in order to comply with the identification document requirements. A passport issued by a foreign government is also acceptable so long as it has all of the required information.

    Whether a hunting license or permit issued by a retailer meets the definition of an identification document is State law specific. This license or permit meets the definition of an identification document if the State in which the retailer is located has authorized the retailer to supply State issued documents. If the State recognizes the hunting license or permit as government issued, then this license or permit would qualify as being government issued for the purposes of supplementing another government issued identification document.

    A description of the location of the residence on an identification document, such as a rural route, is sufficient to constitute a residence address provided the purchaser resides in a State or locality where it is considered to be a legal residence address.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.124]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  23. atmay

    atmay

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    Of all the firearms purchases I’ve made, only one or two were with a DL with the correct address printed on it.

    Additionally, seeing as you can buy as a resident of the state your vacation or weekend home is in, with any state’s DL and proof of residence in the vacation home state (ie tax bill), I don’t think your interpretation is correct.

    ETA: if you read what you posted, it says that a combination of documents can be used to fulfill the requirements. Even though it uses the passport as an example, a DL from a different state, or with an outdated address on it, in combination with another govt document with the correct address, will suffice.

    What you can’t do, is go in with just your DL that has address A on it, and write down address B on the form.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  24. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    My interpretation is correct just because a dealer sell something to you even if your ID isn't your currant address then he is breaking the law not you unless you live in a different state and are trying to by a hand gun.

    And you can buy any rifle in any state that don't have laws that prohibit you like Massachusetts you can't buy any gun in MA with out some LTC or FID or purchase licence if they still do purchase licences.

    But by law you can't buy a hand gun in another state with a vacation home or a weekend home. You have to be a permanent resident of that state. Now you can own a home in 2 states and have dual residence 6 months in one state and 6 months in the other state. But at that point your going to have so ID plus a property tax bill a car registration a electric bill a excise tax bill which will all show you residence and your ID will prove that those bills are in fact you who's bills they actually are
     
  25. atmay

    atmay

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    I don’t even know where to begin with how not-correct any of what you just said is.

    The requirement for ID is that you have one or more govt issued identifying documents that alone, or in composite, have all of the required information. A drivers license with an outdated address, and a tax bill or car reg, meets this requirement. You do not have to go to the DMV every time you move if you want to continue purchasing firearms.

    Secondly, dual residency does NOT require 6mos/6mos. The ATF has repeatedly stated that owning a second home that you regularly stay at (with no limit on how much time), constitutes residency for the purposes of GCA68 in that state while you are staying at that home.

    Thirdly, owning a second home in a different state doesn’t mean you necessarily get an ID, or to register your cars, or any of that in that state. You probably could, if you wanted...but you don’t generally have to.

    I own a second home in Maine. The only govt document I have with that address on it is my tax bill.
     
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  26. atmay

    atmay

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    https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/atf-p-5300-4pdf/download

    Page 39 of this document (page 40 of the PDF) contains the definition of “State of Residency”, and some clarifying examples.

    Example 2 covers the “you maintain two homes” situation, and you’ll see that, with a second home in a different state, you can, in fact, legally purchase firearms as a resident of that state.
     
  27. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    The dual residence was just a example it could be 7 months & 5 months it could be 9 months & 3 months but it can't be 360 days a one place and 5 days at the other and you're still going to need proof that you live in either of them places.

    I can't see any FFL selling you a hand gun with a out of state ID with just a in state tax bill because if that was the case every one would buy a 10th of an acre of land so they can have a tax bill and say they live there.

    So you live in NH and have a tax bill for Maine how many hand guns have you bought in maine with your NH ID and Maine Tax bill.

    And again the very first question on a NICS check is does the residence match the ID and if it don't you can't do a NICS check which means ypu can't buy the gun.

    I have another question to you have you FFL and have you personally done 4473 - NICS checks.
     
  28. atmay

    atmay

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    1) It would be f***ing stupid for me to go out of my way to leave a state with no sales tax, and go buy something in a state that charges like 8%.

    2) where is that time limit codified? Anywhere?

    3) I could make a purchase in ME with my passport and tax bill (or, if we want to get fancy...I could use my tax bill to register my car, then use the car reg). The law even uses passports as an example. Why would an out-of-state ID be any different?

    4) AGAIN, the ID you give the FFL doesn’t need to be a singular document. It can be several that contain the necessary information in aggregate.

    But hey, if you want to turn away legitimate sales, be my guest.
     
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  29. GLOCK-22

    GLOCK-22 NES Member

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    I love people like you who pull out the rules and regulations and then screw them self with it.

    To by a gun hand gun not a rifle you have had to have lived at that residence for 90 days or more to be considered a resident so a weekend home that you use for a weekend or vacation home that you use for one week two weeks or even 4 week does that mean you've lived there for 90 days prior to buying a handgun so in theory you're breaking the law if you say that that's your other residents.

    But it's ok i school a lot of people on gun stuff and gun laws.
     
  30. atmay

    atmay

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    Why don’t you read that again, bucko. Slowly, this time. Maybe ask your mom for help.
     
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