Muzzle Brakes Vs. Compensators for AR

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Well fellas, thank you all for the suggestions. I had a little trouble following through on some of these items because a lot of them were out of stock or backordered with ETA unknown. I was also limited by my budget. I ended up going with a couple DoubleStar Carlson Mini Muzzle Brake's. Great reviews on Midway and with length equal to my A2 flash hiders. I'm looking forward to installing these on my ARs.

 

[PappyM3]

Well fellas, thank you all for the suggestions. I had a little trouble following through on some of these items because a lot of them were out of stock or backordered with ETA unknown. I was also limited by my budget. I ended up going with a couple DoubleStar Carlson Mini Muzzle Brake's. Great reviews on Midway and with length equal to my A2 flash hiders. I'm looking forward to installing these on my ARs.

Nice. That looks like a pretty good non-flash hider option.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Nice. That looks like a pretty good non-flash hider option.

Thank you, I really did end up putting some time and thought into this decision. However, when I followed through today and emailed, called and checked websites of a few places everything was unavailable. Unsurprising, so it's less annoying than it would be ordinarily because I managed my expectations. Silly question: Would I have to have a gunsmith install these or would I be able to just unscrew the A2 flash hiders and install these myself?

 

[PappyM3]

Thank you, I really did end up putting some time and thought into this decision. However, when I followed through today and emailed, called and checked websites of a few places everything was unavailable. Unsurprising, so it's less annoying than it would be ordinarily because I managed my expectations. Silly question: Would I have to have a gunsmith install these or would I be able to just unscrew the A2 flash hiders and install these myself?

Depends. Is this gun subject to AWB rules? Is the barrel under 16” without the muzzle device. If the answer is no to both, then just screw it on, and time it when torquing it appropriately.

If you need to meet 16” barrel length requirements, then yes you need to either pin&weld it or silver solder it. You can get silver solder paste from Brownells along with some thermal paste to protect the barrel from heat. Then pick up a torch at Home Depot if you want to do it yourself. But if your barrel is 14.5”, with that muzzle brake you’ll need a spacer to meet 16”.

If the gun has a 16” barrel but is subject to the AWB, no spacer is needed, but you’ll need to “permanently” attach it. You wouldn’t need to worry about federal guidance that limits you to pinning and welding or silver soldering, but those are still the most common methods. Realistically, you could probably use red loctite if you’re just trying to meet Massachusetts AWB laws. Even after a couple mag dumps, you’ll be hard pressed to get the end of the barrel past 500 degrees.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Depends. Is this gun subject to AWB rules? Is the barrel under 16” without the muzzle device. If the answer is no to both, then just screw it on, and time it when torquing it appropriately.

If you need to meet 16” barrel length requirements, then yes you need to either pin&weld it or silver solder it. You can get silver solder paste from Brownells along with some thermal paste to protect the barrel from heat. Then pick up a torch at Home Depot if you want to do it yourself. But if your barrel is 14.5”, with that muzzle brake you’ll need a spacer to meet 16”.

If the gun has a 16” barrel but is subject to the AWB, no spacer is needed, but you’ll need to “permanently” attach it. You wouldn’t need to worry about federal guidance that limits you to pinning and welding or silver soldering, but those are still the most common methods. Realistically, you could probably use red loctite if you’re just trying to meet Massachusetts AWB laws. Even after a couple mag dumps, you’ll be hard pressed to get the end of the barrel past 500 degrees.

Ahhh I see. Both will be subject to AWB rules and the barrel is under 16" without a muzzle device. Looks like I'll be making a call to my favorite Russian gunsmith soon.

 

[mac1911]

I'm with you. I used to think it HAD to have an A2 or birdcage compensator on the end to look right. Now, not so much.

was going through one of the lockers and found a A2 upper i had stuffed in there. RRA A2 with the military style brake.

Military Style Muzzle Brake

Rock River Arms, Inc. offers a complete line of American made, custom built AR15 style rifles.

www.rockriverarms.com

My "A2" upper for cmp modern military had a few inches nibbled off to get rid of the same style brake. My daughter declared that one hers and sports pink highlights.

Military Style Muzzle Brake

Rock River Arms, Inc. offers a complete line of American made, custom built AR15 style rifles.

www.rockriverarms.com

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

was going through one of the lockers and found a A2 upper i had stuffed in there. RRA A2 with the military style brake.

Military Style Muzzle Brake

Rock River Arms, Inc. offers a complete line of American made, custom built AR15 style rifles.

www.rockriverarms.com

My "A2" upper for cmp modern military had a few inches nibbled off to get rid of the same style brake. My daughter declared that one hers and sports pink highlights.

Military Style Muzzle Brake

Rock River Arms, Inc. offers a complete line of American made, custom built AR15 style rifles.

www.rockriverarms.com

Wow great price on that bad larry too. That’s why I love this thread, it continues to deliver and I’m not at all butthurt that I didn’t get my first pick, second pick, nor my third pick. I want to continue to build and continue to learn from you guys. Thank you all for making this thread one of my favorites I’ve posted on NES.

 

[voidoid]

For my first two builds I used the YHM Phantom Comp/brake. Friends who have tried it have mentioned it's one of the most quiet brakes they've used, though this could be due to the 20" barrels where they were more used to 16"...that 4" distance between the shooter and the brake is going to move the blast farther away.

More recently I was working on a 12.5" build and needed to take it to 16". There's not a lot of great options out there if you need to add 3.5" to the barrel, and I ended up with the Kaw Valley Precision Modular Linear Comp. You can add or remove 1" body segments depending on your needs. Interestingly, the manufacturer advises red Loctite for permanent attachment. I did not permanently attach the end cap to allow for cleaning.

I definitely notice more recoil on that build than any other AR. My 20" builds with the YHM brake recoil like a .22LR, but the 12.5" with the linear comp feels more like an M1 Carbine (still extremely controllable).

 

[84ta406]

I have the VG6 Gamma 7.62 (not familiar with the SL version) and haven’t put it on yet. The range I shoot at has a pretty tightly packed outdoor rifle range and I’ve been reading how disruptive the side discharge is, so I’ve been reluctant to put it on.

Anyone have direct experience with it? It would be replacing the birdcage on an AR-308.

I did a P&W for my buddy with one in 556 and it's ridiculously loud sitting at the bench next to him. However he just had me change it to a Lantac Dragon as well because of how flat my rifle shoots with one.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

For my first two builds I used the YHM Phantom Comp/brake. Friends who have tried it have mentioned it's one of the most quiet brakes they've used, though this could be due to the 20" barrels where they were more used to 16"...that 4" distance between the shooter and the brake is going to move the blast farther away.

More recently I was working on a 12.5" build and needed to take it to 16". There's not a lot of great options out there if you need to add 3.5" to the barrel, and I ended up with the Kaw Valley Precision Modular Linear Comp. You can add or remove 1" body segments depending on your needs. Interestingly, the manufacturer advises red Loctite for permanent attachment. I did not permanently attach the end cap to allow for cleaning.

I definitely notice more recoil on that build than any other AR. My 20" builds with the YHM brake recoil like a .22LR, but the 12.5" with the linear comp feels more like an M1 Carbine (still extremely controllable).

I would definitely be interested in a 20” build at some point, same barrel length as my SKS. This would be ideally for long range and I would maybe want it to be an AR10 build.

I did a P&W for my buddy with one in 556 and it's ridiculously loud sitting at the bench next to him. However he just had me change it to a Lantac Dragon as well because of how flat my rifle shoots with one.

I believe the Lantac I was checking out was out of stock but I was leaning towards it heavily. I’ve got a few lowers inbound that I’ll definitely keep as candidates for one.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Update: I just got a call from my gunsmith and he said he wouldn’t be able to install the Carlson mini-comp muzzle brakes. He said, despite what the manufacturer claimed, they are in fact Flash Hiders. He has some generic ones that look like the mini-comps he said he will install...but I’m bummed out because I wanted the mini-comps and I don’t know if I still can return them to Midway. Do you guys think they are Flash Hiders or Muzzle Brakes?

 

[mac1911]

Wow great price on that bad larry too. That’s why I love this thread, it continues to deliver and I’m not at all butthurt that I didn’t get my first pick, second pick, nor my third pick. I want to continue to build and continue to learn from you guys. Thank you all for making this thread one of my favorites I’ve posted on NES.

I cut one off another rifle to shed that 3oz or so to make weight for cmp match.
Its pretty load and would flip my hat up after a shot. I cant say for sure if it helps or not with muzzle flip.

 

[mac1911]

Update: I just got a call from my gunsmith and he said he wouldn’t be able to install the Carlson mini-comp muzzle brakes. He said, despite what the manufacturer claimed, they are in fact Flash Hiders. He has some generic ones that look like the mini-comps he said he will install...but I’m bummed out because I wanted the mini-comps and I don’t know if I still can return them to Midway. Do you guys think they are Flash Hiders or Muzzle Brakes?

i would go and see his offerings and your carlson side by side and have him point out the difference and why He feels the carlson is a flash hider vs break.
These are like the carlson

Military Style Muzzle Brake

Rock River Arms, Inc. offers a complete line of American made, custom built AR15 style rifles.

www.rockriverarms.com

You could always use this as motivation to install yourself?

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

He is giving me a literal break on the muzzle brakes, they’re like 3 bucks a pop. I’m going to see what kind of work has been done and try to assess the situation from there since I already busted my balls driving the rifles over and getting in this far. Might just save the comps for the next build because I didn’t want to argue with him about it.

 

[PappyM3]

Update: I just got a call from my gunsmith and he said he wouldn’t be able to install the Carlson mini-comp muzzle brakes. He said, despite what the manufacturer claimed, they are in fact Flash Hiders. He has some generic ones that look like the mini-comps he said he will install...but I’m bummed out because I wanted the mini-comps and I don’t know if I still can return them to Midway. Do you guys think they are Flash Hiders or Muzzle Brakes?

Well he’s wrong if he thinks he can definitively say something is a flash hider when the manufacturer claims it is a comp. MGL provides no way to determine what is a flash suppressor. The most reasonable way for a personal assessment is both manufacturer claim and actual flash suppression performance. But even then, no way to be certain so use your own personal assessment. If you like the mini comp and are satisfied that it’s a comp, then find a new gunsmith.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

Well he’s wrong if he thinks he can definitively say something is a flash hider when the manufacturer claims it is a comp. MGL provides no way to determine what is a flash suppressor. The most reasonable way for a personal assessment is both manufacturer claim and actual flash suppression performance. But even then, no way to be certain so use your own personal assessment. If you like the mini comp and are satisfied that it’s a comp, then find a new gunsmith.

I completely agree. I think I’m just going to see what muzzle brakes he puts on, and if they’re like the one from last time, I’ll pay for the job but go to another ‘smith. Honestly, the stock he pinned became unpinned after several hundred rounds downrange so if I end up going to another gunsmith it really wouldn’t be the end of the world.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

Maybe not directly respondent to the OP's situation but my latest goto brand for really outstanding quality and reasonable (not cheap) price is Ultradyne. Good designs and their timing nut system is handy extra (not a gimmick).

Muzzle Brakes - Ultradyne

Effectively reduce recoil and muzzle rise with Ultradyne muzzle brakes. Shoot like never before.

ultradyneusa.com

What I have from them so far is the following.

Apolo Max brake/compensator on an 18" .308 barrel it has a couple compensator ports at the front but is primarily a very aggressive (effective) brake. Lists at $129 but I got one on sale for $90 last year before the current madness started. There are also .264 and .223 versions of the Max and they have a smaller version the simple Apolo ...

Athena linear compensator for a 10.5" .223 barrel (awaiting approval). Again outstanding quality and in this case I think a very reasonable price at $49...

 

[citoriguy]

That Athena isn’t considered a flash hider? Looks great. I’m waiting on approval too for an SBR app.

Have you shot the .308 since the Apollo was put on? How angry were the people on either side of you? lol

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

That Athena isn’t considered a flash hider? Looks great.

No, I don't believe so. It has always been my understanding flash hiders broadley disburse gases at the muzzle and hence have a open architecture (example A2 birdcage). Compensators and brakes focus gases and have a channeled architecture, and in the example of this Athena device if anything the flash will be larger albeit focused forward.

But also I am of the mindset that if someone is examining your muzzle device to determine if it is a "flash hider" or not something has already gone horribly wrong and they are fishing for add-on charges. Honestly, I will make the effort to comply but it is not something I am going to spend too much time worrying about.

You might give it a try. Like I said I have not used it yet but the cost makes it easily worth giving in a try even if it does not work out. And again the quality of the machining is excellent.

Have you shot the .308 since the Apollo was put on? How angry were the people on either side of you? lol

Well actually the people to the side of you are not much in line with the ports. Someone standing behind you and about 15 degrees left/right of the axis of your point of aim might be a different story, like I said this is a very aggressive brake. No one complained and even if they did I'm a bit of a dick so I would probably just roll my eyes and keep on shooting.

The photo below where you can judge the angle of the ports gives you a better idea that it folks over your shoulder that might sense it the most.

 

[mac1911]

That Athena isn’t considered a flash hider? Looks great. I’m waiting on approval too for an SBR app.

Have you shot the .308 since the Apollo was put on? How angry were the people on either side of you? lol

i was not paying attention and I was aprox 45' (deg) behind a brake at about ball high few feet away. It was just enough to "hurt" and enough to say WTF I hate brakes...

 

[citoriguy]

No, I don't believe so. It has always been my understanding flash hiders broadley disburse gases at the muzzle and hence have a open architecture (example A2 birdcage). Compensators and brakes focus gases and have a channeled architecture, and in the example of this Athena device if anything the flash will be larger albeit focused forward.

But also I am of the mindset that if someone is examining your muzzle device to determine if it is a "flash hider" or not something has already gone horribly wrong and they are fishing for add-on charges. Honestly, I will make the effort to comply but it is not something I am going to spend too much time worrying about.

You might give it a try. Like I said I have not used it yet but the cost makes it easily worth giving in a try even if it does not work out. And again the quality of the machining is excellent.



Well actually the people to the side of you are not much in line with the ports. Someone standing behind you and about 15 degrees left/right of the axis of your point of aim might be a different story, like I said this is a very aggressive brake. No one complained and even if they did I'm a bit of a dick so I would probably just roll my eyes and keep on shooting.

The photo below where you can judge the angle of the ports gives you a better idea that it folks over your shoulder that might sense it the most.

Thanks for your feedback. I’ve avoided putting on a Gamma VG6 on my .308 based on the sideways feedback. My rifle range‘s stations are pretty close together, so while I don’t know for sure that it’d be an issue, I‘m erring on the side of caution and looking for other options.

With respect to the Athena, your description of how force is expelled makes a lot of sense. I’ll be checking both of these out when I have a moment or three.

Lastly, I wholeheartedly agree that if my brake/comp is being questioned, then my problems started some time before then and I have bigger issues.

Thanks again.

CG

 

[mac1911]

One of my “military style brakes”

View: https://imgur.com/a/vkWGwpA
Removed the easy way

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

One of my “military style brakes”

View: https://imgur.com/a/vkWGwpA
Removed the easy way

My mini-comps look like shorter versions of that. I still don’t see how they’re considered Flash Hiders and not Muzzle Brakes. I’m not a happy camper about this at all.

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

 

[mac1911]

My mini-comps look like shorter versions of that. I still don’t see how they’re considered Flash Hiders and not Muzzle Brakes. I’m not a happy camper about this at all.

I feel like your smith just wants to get rid of some cheap brakes?

 

[Rocky Mosasaurus]

I feel like your smith just wants to get rid of some cheap brakes?

I also don’t get why he wouldn’t have told me when I brought them to him in the first place. Yeah the brakes he’s putting on are apparently 3 dollars so the more I’ve thought about it the more irritated I’ve become about this whole situation.

 

[mac1911]

I also don’t get why he wouldn’t have told me when I brought them to him in the first place. Yeah the brakes he’s putting on are apparently 3 dollars so the more I’ve thought about it the more irritated I’ve become about this whole situation.

IDK maybe he opened a draw and seen all his Brakes and said, I cant install this guys flash hider?
It Is annoying, This is why I have pretty much learned to do most of my needed gun smithing. I spend the money on the tools vs the labor. Only stuff that requires a cost of tools that are staggering

 

[citoriguy]

Have we all agreed that blue (or red) Loctite doesn’t constitute pinning and welding? I’m guessing the change of a muzzle device backing off on blue Loctite would be higher than red, but if that doesn’t count, then I’ll have to find a smith to pin whatever I end up with to the barrel.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

My mini-comps look like shorter versions of that. I still don’t see how they’re considered Flash Hiders and not Muzzle Brakes. I’m not a happy camper about this at all.

Well just to play devil's advocate (because it is 2AM and I have nothing better to do).
I searched out, found, and enlarged for clarity photos of your "DoubleStar Mini Comp" muzzle device using different angles than have been presented previously here.

But first here is a DPMS mil-spec A2 flash hider...

Now a cropped close up view of your device looking into the muzzle...

And finally your device looking down on the top and enlarged so we can easily see into the 5 slots (ports) ...

Note that like the A2 flash hider your device at the bore opens into a simple expansion chamber, there is no internal architecture that channels the gas toward ports either up (brake) or back (compensator).

True because the slots are on the top the gas will escape there and cause a slight downward reaction on the closed bottom of your device. But I doubt it is preceptiple different when compared to the A2 flash hider which also has a closed bottom. Matter of fact there might be more of a braking effect with the A2 because it has a larger internal surface area to work down on due to it length.

To be honest the double star device looks like a chopped down A2 flash hider with the slots narrowed which has the effect shifting the 3&9 o'clock slots up slightly.
Which is essentially what the manufacturer says on their website in the rather confusing description (AK47 Slant brake? Really?)

Mini Comp

Post-Ban compliant, the mini comp acts and feels like a compact version of the A-2 flash hider. This compensator has 5 slots on top and a solid bottom. Has the same handling characteristics as the well known AK-47 slant brake. 1/2x28 tpi

doublestarusa.com

 

[Atlantis]

I forgot where I saw this info, I’ll try to find a cite/source. I read that the distinction between legal/non legal comes down to the diameter of the muzzle device opening. Like for .223 if the opening down the bore isn’t .25 or under, it’s considered a comp/brake/legal. If the opening is larger than that, especially at the muzzle end, it’s considered a flash hider.

Not sure how that plays into linear comps though...