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MSP transitioning to M&P45?
- Thread starter S. Kelly
- Start date
FYI
Still in the fact finding stage. STOP team is looking into single action 45 (ACP) as well.
RFI = Request For Information
"1. Introduction
The purpose of this RFI is to elicit the response of knowledgeable persons in the vendor community to enable the Massachusetts State Police (MSP) to select a semi-automatic pistol chambered for the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) caliber for general duty use. The .45 ACP is an effective pistol cartridge that combines accuracy and stopping power. The cartridge offers relatively low muzzle blast and flash, as well as moderate recoil. The .45 ACP also operates at a relatively low maximum chamber pressure rating which helps extend the service life of weapons it is fired in. The .45 caliber ACP semi-automatic pistol that is selected will be utilized as the main duty weapon of the MSP. Responses to this RFI should include information that will be useful to the MSP in drafting more detailed procurement solicitations related to future pistol acquisition.
2. Agency
The Massachusetts State Police is contemplating a transition from the .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol currently carried, to a .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol.
3. Purpose of RFI
The purpose of the RFI is to solicit information pertaining to .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols. Emerging trends indicate that other law enforcement agencies have opted to utilize this caliber of pistol as a more effective weapon. This RFI solicitation seeks responses from vendors who can offer information about the .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol which meets the criteria and objectives detailed below.
4. Information Solicited
In order to determine the most viable .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol option, this RFI requests vendors respond to the following:
A. Questions
i. What models and configurations of .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols are offered (i.e. full size, compact, sub-compact, barrel length, etc.)?
ii. What ergonomic and/or ambidextrous features are available on the pistol or pistols offered?
iii. Where are the pistols manufactured?
iv. From what materials are the pistols manufactured (i.e. steel, alloys, polymer, etc.)?
v. Where are the various major internal components for the pistols manufactured?
vi. What is the magazine capacity of the pistol or pistols offered?
vii. What is the expected service life (in number of rounds fired) of the pistol or pistols offered?
viii. Are there agencies currently utilizing the pistol or pistols offered that can independently verify reliability, endurance, durability, and manufacturer service and support?"
Still in the fact finding stage. STOP team is looking into single action 45 (ACP) as well.
RFI = Request For Information
"1. Introduction
The purpose of this RFI is to elicit the response of knowledgeable persons in the vendor community to enable the Massachusetts State Police (MSP) to select a semi-automatic pistol chambered for the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) caliber for general duty use. The .45 ACP is an effective pistol cartridge that combines accuracy and stopping power. The cartridge offers relatively low muzzle blast and flash, as well as moderate recoil. The .45 ACP also operates at a relatively low maximum chamber pressure rating which helps extend the service life of weapons it is fired in. The .45 caliber ACP semi-automatic pistol that is selected will be utilized as the main duty weapon of the MSP. Responses to this RFI should include information that will be useful to the MSP in drafting more detailed procurement solicitations related to future pistol acquisition.
2. Agency
The Massachusetts State Police is contemplating a transition from the .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol currently carried, to a .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol.
3. Purpose of RFI
The purpose of the RFI is to solicit information pertaining to .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols. Emerging trends indicate that other law enforcement agencies have opted to utilize this caliber of pistol as a more effective weapon. This RFI solicitation seeks responses from vendors who can offer information about the .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol which meets the criteria and objectives detailed below.
4. Information Solicited
In order to determine the most viable .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol option, this RFI requests vendors respond to the following:
A. Questions
i. What models and configurations of .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols are offered (i.e. full size, compact, sub-compact, barrel length, etc.)?
ii. What ergonomic and/or ambidextrous features are available on the pistol or pistols offered?
iii. Where are the pistols manufactured?
iv. From what materials are the pistols manufactured (i.e. steel, alloys, polymer, etc.)?
v. Where are the various major internal components for the pistols manufactured?
vi. What is the magazine capacity of the pistol or pistols offered?
vii. What is the expected service life (in number of rounds fired) of the pistol or pistols offered?
viii. Are there agencies currently utilizing the pistol or pistols offered that can independently verify reliability, endurance, durability, and manufacturer service and support?"
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They didn't ask about features like magazine disconnect or chamber load indicator. The AG and Consumer Safety need to tell the MSP how important these features are!
[/sarcasm]
What do they have now, Sig 226 in .40 maybe? Sig doesn't make a .45 anymore do they, other than their 1911?
[/sarcasm]
What do they have now, Sig 226 in .40 maybe? Sig doesn't make a .45 anymore do they, other than their 1911?
MSP issues Sig P226 in .40 for most units, with some P229s and even P239s going to specialized troopers. Sig still makes the P220 .45 which is carried by a few departments, but it only comes with an 8 round mag. New Hampshire State Police dumped the P220 for M&P45s...MSP might be thinking of doing the same.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Yup, I heard it... from an MSP armorer with 5, count 'em, five, sequentially serial-numbered M&P 45s that he was test-firing out at Harvard last summer.
Over at the 10-8forums, someone posted that the STOP team has already ordered 50 of the 1911 Es -- the version with a rail.
Sig makes multiple variants of the P220 in .45. Good luck to them though, their QC record in the recent past has been less than stellar.
IIRC a few years ago NH SP dumped the P220-ST and moved to the M+P.
-Mike
OfficerObie59
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My job went the M&P 45 in late 2009. Other than the fact it's huge on your side and gets in the way of the seatbelt, I really like it.
But it's still not a Glock.
My department will be switching to S&W M&P 45's very soon. We have Glock 23's now.
The issues that are plaguing Sig have to do with quality control. Sig's new management team is gung-ho on producing new product and pushing old products. When I was up in Eppling in September, the Director of Training told me that Sig now produces as many guns in one month at Exeter than it used to produce in a whole year. Sig is no longer perceived as a gun for the classes, but a gun for the masses. The primary issue, however, is that Ruger fills this role nicely, but with good durable designs, and for the most part very consistent quality control. It was the QC issue that did S&W in for several decades plus coupled with the Glock Revolution. While QC at S&W still varies to a degree, it has significantly improved. I imagine any new MPs going to the MSP are going to get special attention. When S&W lost the contract in 1986, it was a blow to their prestige, in that the largest agency in the state they were located rejected them as their primary vendor, who had been supplying S&W handguns to the MSP since at least the early 1920's. (rumors have circulated over the years, too about some kind of "deal" that was cut as well with certain Sig executives back at that time, but I cannot comment on that as I was not around then).
Reports here on NES strongly suggest that the current Sig production isn't as good in terms of quality as in times past. YMMV.
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Talked with a Trooper at a gun shop last week, he was carrying the M&P 45.
I asked him where did all the Sig mags go he said S&W traded them 1 for 1 in guns and mags.
They have the free state 5.5lb trigger.
He said that the 2 finalists were Glock and the M&P. The Smith won out because of the adjustable grips.
According to him, MSP guns will fire a minimum of 5000 rounds over their 10 yr lifespan. They loaded the mags on the guns and fired 5k rounds, no cleaning no lube. when the guns got too hot, they were dunked in a 5gal. bucket.
The Glock and M&P were the only ones to fire all 5k without some time of gun failure.
He also echoed the Sig QC issues as well
I asked him where did all the Sig mags go he said S&W traded them 1 for 1 in guns and mags.
They have the free state 5.5lb trigger.
He said that the 2 finalists were Glock and the M&P. The Smith won out because of the adjustable grips.
According to him, MSP guns will fire a minimum of 5000 rounds over their 10 yr lifespan. They loaded the mags on the guns and fired 5k rounds, no cleaning no lube. when the guns got too hot, they were dunked in a 5gal. bucket.
The Glock and M&P were the only ones to fire all 5k without some time of gun failure.
He also echoed the Sig QC issues as well
Back in the dark ages, there were minimum height requirements for police officers. Not so anymore. Officers come in all sizes and shapes (hopefully fit however) and both sexes. One gun with fixed grip size just does not fit everyone well.
Bottom line is two-fold:
- Ability to choose a gun with different grip sizes for the troops plays big these days.
- S&W has been very aggressive on pricing to agencies, trying to get a foothold where Glock had owned the day for 20 years.
Maybe I'm missing something, but Glock has adjustable grips, at least on the Gen4. As well as a wide range of standard grip sizes for different models, i.e. SF to full size.
Not to mention the M&P Grips are not that great, and that in circles it has been said that Glock gets money for copyright infringment from S&W, how much is undisclosed.
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The Gen 4 grips are not great either, The only money that S&W may be paying to Glock is over the Sigma not the M&P. The Gen 4 Glocks are a result of Glock neeeding a weapon that could offer adjustable grips like the M&P. The other issue is pulling the trigger as part of the disassembly process. Alot of Police agencies frown on this. YMMV
That's a very recent development and many of these contracts have probably been in the works for some time. In addition, last I checked Gen 4 Glocks are not yet available in all calibers, and they are having significant teething issues.
The SF isn't much different than the normal size, and would require a department that wants to have guns that suit officers with larger and smaller hands to stock multiple guns -- they'll either end up having only small grip guns in stock when an officer wants a bigger grip (or vice versa) or they have a bunch of extra inventory. And if an officer wants to try a different size grip, they have to keep track of which gun the officer has now. In contrast, a gun with adjustable grips allows them to just issue the same gun to all officers and the officer can swap the grip panels at will with no added paperwork or inventory.
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They're available in pretty much every Caliber LE uses except for .357 Sig.
I agree on the teething issues, though, although 90% of the issues are confined to the 9mm 17/19/34 Gen4s. Even if they didn't have teething issues, I still would not expect any PD to adopt something that has basically only been out for about a year or so.
I don't even like the M&P pistols that much but I think dumping Sig DAKs to go to that is a huge improvement. The DAK just plain sucks. It wouldn't be so bad if the panic reset wasn't 8+ pounds, but if they did that, then they would immediately get sued by HK for more or less ripping off the LEM. (Which isn't incredible, but it's still way better than the DAK is).
-Mike
Have you ever held the Gen4 and prior gen in your hand, one after another? Same question on G21 and G21SF?
I'll bet that the answer is no based on your post.
I have (it was in VT at a gun shop). I have small hands for a guy and the Gen4 allows you to ADD a grip making it bigger . . . OK, gorillas will be happy now.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
The G21SF (that I wanted in the worst way, after reading all the hype and talking with Glock-US Gen'l Counsel) is still too big to fit my hand comfortably. It is 1/4" shallower front to back, but still not enough for my hands.
In contrast, I found that the M&P 45 with either small or medium grip size fits me very well.
Yup, last thing a PD wants is to stockpile various different sized guns. They don't run a "shoe store" in the armory.
S&W solved this problem and Glock still does NOT have a suitable solution for the masses. [NOTE: I am not "anti-Glock" or "pro-S&W", just reporting what fits myself and my Wife. We both own a total of 3 Glocks and 3 M&Ps . . . guess which ones we shoot most often? And I'm not selling the Glocks, use them for training.]
Are they available in 45 ACP? If so, I stand corrected.
I know the 9's have had a lot of reported issues. Have the 40s been trouble free? I had read about problems that agencies were having with the Gen 3 and earlier Glock 22 but only when a light was mounted on its rail. Any idea if that has been fixed?
I've fired an LEM USPc, and wasn't impressed. I haven't fired a DAK. In general, I just don't like SIG's high bore axis and slide stop location, but those are my personal pet peeves. As much as I dislike the Glock trigger, Glock's low bore axis, short reset, flat slide top, and conventional control locations has a lot going for it.
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Have you ever held the Gen4 and prior gen in your hand, one after another? Same question on G21 and G21SF?
I'll bet that the answer is no based on your post.
I have (it was in VT at a gun shop). I have small hands for a guy and the Gen4 allows you to ADD a grip making it bigger . . . OK, gorillas will be happy now.
The G21SF (that I wanted in the worst way, after reading all the hype and talking with Glock-US Gen'l Counsel) is still too big to fit my hand comfortably. It is 1/4" shallower front to back, but still not enough for my hands.
In contrast, I found that the M&P 45 with either small or medium grip size fits me very well.
Yup, last thing a PD wants is to stockpile various different sized guns. They don't run a "shoe store" in the armory.
S&W solved this problem and Glock still does NOT have a suitable solution for the masses. [NOTE: I am not "anti-Glock" or "pro-S&W", just reporting what fits myself and my Wife. We both own a total of 3 Glocks and 3 M&Ps . . . guess which ones we shoot most often? And I'm not selling the Glocks, use them for training.]
You would lose that bet. Having been an armorer, I worked with and own most generations(lately have not seen many Gen1, on the flip side more Gen3 than Gen4 but they have been in).
The grip size on the 3 and 4 (G17)do not differ much out of the box except for texture and that 2MM shorter intergrated backstrap with 2 additional backstraps of 2MM each.
I also shoot my Gen4 weekly. Currently on RC about 1550.( please do not take any offense just my careless opinion).
From what I am remebering when I bought an M&P when they first came out(sold it last year), you have to take out the tool (Rotate 90degrees) at the bottom of the magazine well to replace/change the grip. I found with repeated use/movement (of the tool) the plastic wears out as would any other plastic part.
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How often do you replace the grip? A few times when you first get the gun to decide which you prefer, then you are done. Did you find that to be enough to cause problems?
No, however it was a gun that I let many people use and wanted to see what their most likley grip size was and how comfortable it would be for them. I would think that once you found your size you would leave it. But like I said,I rarely used the M&P.
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