MSP transitioning to M&P45?

[jraysig]

I'm not really a huge fan of the M&P and IMHO you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Outside of an "exigent" circumstance, no sane person would use the backstrap pin thing to push the takedown lever, as it's too much of a pain in the ass to remove it from the gun constantly, anyways. You could use a cleaning brush, a plastic cleaning rod, or any of the myriad of objects likely to be on someone's gun bench while they're cleaning the gun. Hell, the swiss army knife that's always in my pocket would probably have something on it that could be used to press the pin.

If I owned an M&P I'd find a way to remove the whole damned thing or just get it so I could take the slide off without using the stupid lever.

BTW, in terms of "having defects and never admitting mistakes" Glock is pretty much the crowned KING of that, and I own more Glocks than everything else combined. For example the Gen4 G19s and G17s that came out originally were completely ****ed up, but Glock would never admit they ****ed up. I will say though that I got my "early" Gen4 G17 back from them in 2 weeks and it's basically perfect now. (It was having massive ejection problems). Even the trigger feels better too,f or some reason. (Another defect with some of the Gen4 guns floating around out there that they won't acknowledge). In the end though I don't really care what kind of smoke Glock wants to blow, as long as I get a good pistol out of the deal, and all of mine have been excellent. This is literally the first gun I've had to send to them in the past 4 years. )

While I'm at it, Beretta, Sig (Any mosquito owner knows what I'm talking about... talk about a train of lies) HK, and probably numerous others, are all guilty of the same brand of "offenses"... so the type of stuff you're talking about, is pretty much par for the course for a number of manufacturers.

-Mike

Hey Mike,

I saw a few posts about Sig having quality issues lately. What are they? I own a 220 and it's amazing. I've never had an issue. I also agree I love my glocks! Thanks Mike!

 

[drgrant]

Hey Mike,

I saw a few posts about Sig having quality issues lately. What are they? I own a 220 and it's amazing. I've never had an issue. I also agree I love my glocks! Thanks Mike!

Their QC has been spotty in the past few years or so. So if you're not lucky you get a broken gun. It's nothing specific, it's just that your odds of getting a crappy Sig up significantly from what they were 4 or so years ago. Problems range from bad fitment to bad MIM parts, etc. Another problem is that a lot of their P-series guns have UNUSUALLY hard breaking sears in single action. About 50% of the P-series guns that I dry fire have SA sears that probably break northward of 5 pounds, and getting a gunsmith to fix that stuff... you might as well just buy powerball tickets instead, because most of them don't/won't touch the SA sear.

I used to own a ton of Sigs and about the only ones I miss out of the lot were the P228 and the X5 I had... because both of those guns had great SA sears on them. My P220 wasn't bad, either. Problem is now the more rounds I launch from Glocks and 1911s the less and less I think about Sigs and other guns like them.

-Mike

 

[eisenhow]

I just pull the damned trigger and the slide comes off. I don't see why it's a big deal. For those PDs that oppose this practice, they have the takedown lever.

This. The lever is there for people who can't be trusted to make sure the gun is clear.

 

[jraysig]

Their QC has been spotty in the past few years or so. So if you're not lucky you get a broken gun. It's nothing specific, it's just that your odds of getting a crappy Sig up significantly from what they were 4 or so years ago. Problems range from bad fitment to bad MIM parts, etc. Another problem is that a lot of their P-series guns have UNUSUALLY hard breaking sears in single action. About 50% of the P-series guns that I dry fire have SA sears that probably break northward of 5 pounds, and getting a gunsmith to fix that stuff... you might as well just buy powerball tickets instead, because most of them don't/won't touch the SA sear.

I used to own a ton of Sigs and about the only ones I miss out of the lot were the P228 and the X5 I had... because both of those guns had great SA sears on them. My P220 wasn't bad, either. Problem is now the more rounds I launch from Glocks and 1911s the less and less I think about Sigs and other guns like them.

-Mike

Thanks Mike! My 220 is six or seven years old at this point so that makes sense. I have to agree glocks and 1911s are amazing to shoot! Thanks again for the info! I had no idea Sigs were having any quality issues.

 

[PaulD]

Thanks Mike! My 220 is six or seven years old at this point so that makes sense. I have to agree glocks and 1911s are amazing to shoot! Thanks again for the info! I had no idea Sigs were having any quality issues.

To keep it somewhat in perspective, I own 4 SIGs. One is Mike's old X5 (Mike, you're welcome to borrow it), a newish 229, a 226 Elite and a GSR Evolution. The only one that's had problems was the GSR and SIG seems to have fixed it. Also, the SA break on the 229 is quite nice. The 226 is also decent.

 

[WargameHub]

PaulD, I'm with you, we have a P226, P229, P239, and two P238s all purchased in the last year and the only problem so far was a bad slide release spring on my fiances P238. She even traded in her M&P9c to get the P229.

Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk

 

[mark056]

PaulD, I'm with you, we have a P226, P229, P239, and two P238s all purchased in the last year and the only problem so far was a bad slide release spring on my fiances P238. She even traded in her M&P9c to get the P229. Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk

No doubt Sig is producing lots of good guns, but problems show up in institutional purchases and after some usage. The MSP has approx 2500 Sig P226 DAKs in its inventory as well as some P239 DAKs, and they were simply having too many problems with them. Naturally, the majority of the DAKs issued worked just fine, but there were enough being sent to the armorer to raise a red flag, and when questions were raised about some of the parts origins, Sig was apparently a little less than forthcoming. Isn't it interesting that out of five guns, one had to be sent back. That's 20 percent of all the Sigs you own. Now if 20 percent of all guns owned by the MSP were returned, that would be 500 guns, so that changes things a bit. (I don't know what percentage of problem P226's they had, and some of the problems didn't show up until after they were in service for a time).

Remember too, that S&W has been trying to win back the MSP contract for years, as S&Ws were issued to the MSP from the founding of the Uniform Branch until 1986. They have gone to great lengths to ingratiate themselves with law enforcement in general because prior to the "Glock Revolution" they supplied about 90 percent of all law enforcement handguns in the non-Warsaw Pact countries, including much of South America, Africa and Asia. S&W has pulled some spectacular boners in institutional sales. A couple of years ago they sold some new Model 64 Revolvers to the South Carolina Department of Corrections. Many of them were not even in a condition to be fired. We will see how well the MPs hold up and whether or not they will develop issues. I have heard rumors from several sources that all LE contract guns go through a "special QC audit" before being shipped. I don't know if this is true or not, but they are going to great pains to see that there are no missteps. They want to get back the business that they lost from Glock.

 

[PaulD]

PaulD, I'm with you, we have a P226, P229, P239, and two P238s all purchased in the last year and the only problem so far was a bad slide release spring on my fiances P238. She even traded in her M&P9c to get the P229.

Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk

Don't get me wrong. I don't doubt that SIG's QC is having problems. They've expanded and QC usually suffers when that happens. However, there's two basic dynamics with product quality that can happen. One is that all the production gets worse and all are equally likely to have problems. The second is that the number of bad products goes up but the good ones are still as good as before. So, to use cars as an analogy, some manufacturers might produce cars where all of them will break in the same way at around the same mileage where others simply produce more overall lemons, while the non-lemons show no particular failure patterns.

The two dynamics can also mix.

Where SIG falls in that I'm not quite sure, but mine have been problem free so far. I'm no operator though so maybe my sample size sucks.

 

[WargameHub]

Well said, I was just tossing in my experience with Sigs manufactured in the last 14 months.

From what I have seen 2000 - 2009 is Russian roulette and mid 2010/2011 so far have have had positive reviews but all are smaller samples (I have access to 7) with no specific trends. But thats for handguns. . .

Speaking of cars, mine just got recalled.


Sent from my SPH-P100 using Tapatalk

 

[hk-sigman]

I got the details from a State Trooper armorer friend of mine. The P226DAK pistols were displaying several different issues. First was premature parts wear. Second was failures to fire. MSP sent the problem guns to SIG. SIG found nothing wrong with them and returned them. Those guns continued having problems so an MSP armorer started taking guns apart and checking them. What he found was that the problem guns had trigger bars with holes drilled in them. MSP asked SIG to replace the trigger bars in all of the issued guns. SIG refused and told MSP to go through all of their guns and replace the trigger bars in the problem guns only. MSP refused and finally convinced SIG to send 4 of it's armorers down with new trigger bars and replace the trigger bar in every MSP SIG. SIG did this. MSP then requested to know why the trigger bars were different and who produced them for SIG. SIGs response was that they didn't know why some trigger bars had holes and some didn't. They also said that they have many overseas 3rd party vendors that supply parts for their guns and that they were not sure who made what part. MSP was not happy with that answer and could find out nothing else from SIG. SIG clammed up and refused to give further details on who makes their parts and how those parts are made.

MSP decided to seek out a new sidearm.

 

[PaulD]

I got the details from a State Trooper armorer friend of mine. The P226DAK pistols were displaying several different issues. First was premature parts wear. Second was failures to fire. MSP sent the problem guns to SIG. SIG found nothing wrong with them and returned them. Those guns continued having problems so an MSP armorer started taking guns apart and checking them. What he found was that the problem guns had trigger bars with holes drilled in them. MSP asked SIG to replace the trigger bars in all of the issued guns. SIG refused and told MSP to go through all of their guns and replace the trigger bars in the problem guns only. MSP refused and finally convinced SIG to send 4 of it's armorers down with new trigger bars and replace the trigger bar in every MSP SIG. SIG did this. MSP then requested to know why the trigger bars were different and who produced them for SIG. SIGs response was that they didn't know why some trigger bars had holes and some didn't. They also said that they have many overseas 3rd party vendors that supply parts for their guns and that they were not sure who made what part. MSP was not happy with that answer and could find out nothing else from SIG. SIG clammed up and refused to give further details on who makes their parts and how those parts are made.

MSP decided to seek out a new sidearm.

Wow! That's some serious business fail on SIG's part.

 

[mark056]

Wow! That's some serious business fail on SIG's part.

Well the same fate befell S&W some 30 - 35 years ago and it has taken decades to for them to change their image.

The new Sig (which reorganized in North America) has increased production and has decided to go for lower price point newer (i.e. cheaper) designs, and provide more "economical means of production" for its P series of pistols. In one sense, and this is just speculation, having major DHS and USCG contracts for their pistols, losing the MSP account might not be seen as a major loss, afterall, we are only talking about 3,000 guns at most here.

Sadly, Sigs used to be guns for the classes (federal and state LEO organizations) and now catering to the masses, but alas, Sig is not Ruger, a company that provides affordable, reliable, and very durable firearms at a popular price point.

One of my best guns is my P229 made circa 1997...a very well made, and good gun. I'd be more wary of anything Sig makes today although there are still good guns being made, perhaps fewer of them, though.

I'll be up at Eppling tommorrow attending a class. I'll see what kind of feedback or rumors I might hear (I am not holding my breath).

 

[OfficerObie59]

We will see how well the MPs hold up and whether or not they will develop issues. I have heard rumors from several sources that all LE contract guns go through a "special QC audit" before being shipped. I don't know if this is true or not, but they are going to great pains to see that there are no missteps. They want to get back the business that they lost from Glock.

Keep an eye out for very fine rust on the slides, particularly on the underside beneath the slide grooves. We had to send back quite a few within the first 9 months after our fielding in late 2009. The rumor was that the guy doing the dippings wasn't wearing the proper gloves and hand oils where left between the raw metal and finish layers. Not sure if this is true, but S&W said they had remedied the issue and the new slides have seemed to be fine. Just something to keep an eye out for.

 

[drgrant]

Yup. And that liner can rust, so I fail to see the point behind the plastic body. But the liners were an afterthought, added when the US market complained about the non-dropfree mags.
.

A loaded Glock mag doesn't turn into a crap-pile when it hits a cement floor.

Drop a loaded Sig P-series mag on concrete, and if it lands base down.... PWOOSH.

The Glock design allows for a stronger, more durable baseplate mating. Course it also makes the mag a pain in the ass to take off. There is no free lunch.

It also prevents external corrosion. EG, sweaty hands, people like GSG who have corrosive sweat, etc. If GSG touched a Sig mag, it would rust in about 2 hours. If he touches a Glock mag... no rust.

FWIW, I store a lot of my accessories in a damp basement. If I don't store the Sig and Beretta mags well (eg, like in an ammo can or in a container) they will rust. The Glock mag liners have never rusted.

The only metal mags I've dealt with which seem to be immune to surface rust under these conditions are various 1911 mags, and HK mags. Whatever coating HK puts on them seems to be robust enough to prevent it.

-Mike

 

[ARV]

I'm not knocking the .45 ACP, it is a proven caliber and I do carry and use an MP in .45 ACP, but if I lived in a free state I'd probably carry a .357Sig. Something just galls me about having to carry a neutered magazine. That's just me YMMV and I don't have any complaints about the .45 per se.

M&P40c + .357 SIG barrel + standard compact mags. My M&P doesn't have cripple mags with that horrible plastic block at the end. The 40/.357 compact mags are 10 rounds no matter where you go.

Keep an eye out for very fine rust on the slides, particularly on the underside beneath the slide grooves. We had to send back quite a few within the first 9 months after our fielding in late 2009. The rumor was that the guy doing the dippings wasn't wearing the proper gloves and hand oils where left between the raw metal and finish layers. Not sure if this is true, but S&W said they had remedied the issue and the new slides have seemed to be fine. Just something to keep an eye out for.

You would think the process that puts the melonite finish (or what ever S&W wants to call it) on the metal would burn off the oils at the temp used. I think the finish penetrates a little into the metal rather than just sitting on the surface as well. That and the fact that its a stainless slide to begin with....hmmm. either way mine shows no sign of rust, and I basically never wipe the thing down after I carry it. Other guns I have to oil if I so much as look at them from across the room.

 

[mark056]

M&P40c + .357 SIG barrel + standard compact mags. My M&P doesn't have cripple mags with that horrible plastic block at the end. The 40/.357 compact mags are 10 rounds no matter where you go.

Yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily carry the compact model. I've been know to carry service size semi-autos and even S&W N frames CCW as well as a .45 M&P. I prefer either full size handguns or the Commander equivalent which is to say slightly scaled down. I have no interest in the compact models per se.

 

[joeendris]

Yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily carry the compact model. I've been know to carry service size semi-autos and even S&W N frames CCW as well as a .45 M&P. I prefer either full size handguns or the Commander equivalent which is to say slightly scaled down. I have no interest in the compact models per se.

I agree. Floating pinky syndrome is a distraction, at the least.

 

[turbo38gn]

Yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily carry the compact model. I've been know to carry service size semi-autos and even S&W N frames CCW as well as a .45 M&P. I prefer either full size handguns or the Commander equivalent which is to say slightly scaled down. I have no interest in the compact models per se.

The .45 and for that matter the compact 9 or 40 can easily use the FS magazines, prevents "pinky float" also the compact .45 has a 4" barrel not a 3.5" like the 9-40 and 357sig.. so the .45c is pretty close to FS with the option to go smaller..

 

[drgrant]

Yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily carry the compact model. I've been know to carry service size semi-autos and even S&W N frames CCW as well as a .45 M&P. I prefer either full size handguns or the Commander equivalent which is to say slightly scaled down. I have no interest in the compact models per se.

Mark, it's worth noting that guns like the M&Pc are probably not as compact as you would be lead to believe. They're an entire order of magnitude larger than something like a Glock 26/27/33, but not as large as a Glock mid like a 19/23/32. Some people view this as and advantage (eg, more controllable than smaller guns) and people like myself view them as guns with identity crises.

The M&P .45 Compact is also more like a "Commander" sized gun as well, as it's bigger than something like a G30 is in pretty much every dimension except probably width. It has a 4" barrel on it. Out of all the guns in the entire lineup the .45c is probably the most interesting. (Mainly because there are few polymer .45s really in that realm... Springfield probably has one, but it's probably still fatter.

-Mike

 

[mythree]

Well I'm tickled to death about this. Sig quality has gone into the crap hole and it's catching up with them in a big way. Started noticing their quality issues some 10 years ago. Also, didn't like and still don't this business of them slapping parts from all different models together, if they fit, and functioned together and creating the FrankenSigs and selling them off, parts left over from model runs. I just looked at all the LEO agencies carrying S&W M&P I was pretty surprised to see how many there are. Although, I was told many, many years ago that there parts were made offshore and I believed it - it was difficult to circulate simply because they have such a hardcore loyal following. But stuff like this happening will bring them to their knees.

 

[mythree]

FYI
Still in the fact finding stage. STOP team is looking into single action 45 (ACP) as well.

RFI = Request For Information

"1. Introduction
The purpose of this RFI is to elicit the response of knowledgeable persons in the vendor community to enable the Massachusetts State Police (MSP) to select a semi-automatic pistol chambered for the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) caliber for general duty use. The .45 ACP is an effective pistol cartridge that combines accuracy and stopping power. The cartridge offers relatively low muzzle blast and flash, as well as moderate recoil. The .45 ACP also operates at a relatively low maximum chamber pressure rating which helps extend the service life of weapons it is fired in. The .45 caliber ACP semi-automatic pistol that is selected will be utilized as the main duty weapon of the MSP. Responses to this RFI should include information that will be useful to the MSP in drafting more detailed procurement solicitations related to future pistol acquisition.
2. Agency
The Massachusetts State Police is contemplating a transition from the .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol currently carried, to a .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol.
3. Purpose of RFI
The purpose of the RFI is to solicit information pertaining to .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols. Emerging trends indicate that other law enforcement agencies have opted to utilize this caliber of pistol as a more effective weapon. This RFI solicitation seeks responses from vendors who can offer information about the .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol which meets the criteria and objectives detailed below.
4. Information Solicited
In order to determine the most viable .45 ACP semi-automatic pistol option, this RFI requests vendors respond to the following:
A. Questions
i. What models and configurations of .45 ACP semi-automatic pistols are offered (i.e. full size, compact, sub-compact, barrel length, etc.)?
ii. What ergonomic and/or ambidextrous features are available on the pistol or pistols offered?
iii. Where are the pistols manufactured?
iv. From what materials are the pistols manufactured (i.e. steel, alloys, polymer, etc.)?
v. Where are the various major internal components for the pistols manufactured?
vi. What is the magazine capacity of the pistol or pistols offered?
vii. What is the expected service life (in number of rounds fired) of the pistol or pistols offered?
viii. Are there agencies currently utilizing the pistol or pistols offered that can independently verify reliability, endurance, durability, and manufacturer service and support?"

The MA State Police would be remiss if they didn't consider the FNH line of pistols (the new striker fired line) The FNS model currently offered in 9mm and 40S&W and I'm told the .45acp will be out shortly. FN created this line specifically to win over LEO business in North America. Not sure some schmoozing is going on with a MA based company but I'm sure it's related somehow. As far as a 1911 choice as a side arm I can tell you it would be a NIGHTMARE to transition those that are not necessarily gun oriented employees and there's quite a few of them. Also, the cleaning, breakdown and reassembly would cause major problems for those same individuals.

Just a few thoughts -

 

[PaulD]

The MA State Police would be remiss if they didn't consider the FNH line of pistols (the new striker fired line) The FNS model currently offered in 9mm and 40S&W and I'm told the .45acp will be out shortly. FN created this line specifically to win over LEO business in North America. Not sure some schmoozing is going on with a MA based company but I'm sure it's related somehow. As far as a 1911 choice as a side arm I can tell you it would be a NIGHTMARE to transition those that are not necessarily gun oriented employees and there's quite a few of them. Also, the cleaning, breakdown and reassembly would cause major problems for those same individuals.

Just a few thoughts -

I believe the MA state police have to buy off of the EOPS list and the FN handguns are not on that.

 

[mark056]

The MA State Police would be remiss if they didn't consider the FNH line of pistols (the new striker fired line) The FNS model currently offered in 9mm and 40S&W and I'm told the .45acp will be out shortly. FN created this line specifically to win over LEO business in North America. Not sure some schmoozing is going on with a MA based company but I'm sure it's related somehow. As far as a 1911 choice as a side arm I can tell you it would be a NIGHTMARE to transition those that are not necessarily gun oriented employees and there's quite a few of them. Also, the cleaning, breakdown and reassembly would cause major problems for those same individuals.

Just a few thoughts -

The .45 M&P is a done deal for general service and they are starting to be issued by the MSP and some are on the road. The new academy class is being equipped and trained with them.

The M1911 and its clones and variants is a standard for SWAT teams throughout the U.S. The persons on the MSP STOP Team receive a higher level of training than the average MSP member, and the ones that I have met have a strong interest in firearms. I don't think that MSP would even contemplate a single action .45 for general service.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I believe the MA state police have to buy off of the EOPS list and the FN handguns are not on that.

Absolutely incorrect!

Agencies can buy anything they want from any source they wish!

Individual officers can only purchase (legally from the dealer's perspective) handguns that are on the EOPS Roster. [The AG Regs have an exception for all LEO individual purchases. The MGL - EOPS List does NOT have such an exemption.]

 

[PaulD]

Absolutely incorrect!

Agencies can buy anything they want from any source they wish!

Individual officers can only purchase (legally from the dealer's perspective) handguns that are on the EOPS Roster. [The AG Regs have an exception for all LEO individual purchases. The MGL - EOPS List does NOT have such an exemption.]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[jar]

Mark, it's worth noting that guns like the M&Pc are probably not as compact as you would be lead to believe. They're an entire order of magnitude larger than something like a Glock 26/27/33, but not as large as a Glock mid like a 19/23/32. Some people view this as and advantage (eg, more controllable than smaller guns) and people like myself view them as guns with identity crises.

The M&Pc is 0.41" longer, 0.13" taller, and 0.02" wider than a G26. That's hardly ten times the size.

 

[pmclaine]

I don't think that MSP would even contemplate a single action .45 for general service.

And what is the M&P save for some creative naming to make it acceptable to the liability checkers (is the striker fully cocked upon slide return to battery? You can claim that little tiniest bit of movement that the trigger imparts to the sear, which in turn moves the striker maybe .0001 inches, makes it double action but that is a stretch).

At least with the 1911 there is a mechanical safety, grip safety, and firing pin safety to defeat. The M&P? The sear and a firing pin safety. Its not the 1911 thats unsafe its the person carrying it. Both guns have a trigger - the best safety - just dont pull it (or if its a Glock/M&P make sure you dont get your t shirt caught in the trigger guard or wear a worn out holster that folds into the trigger guard causing - BLAMMO!)

Big learning curve for the 1911 will be to detrain the decock (Decock, Decock, Decock!) of the Sig 226. While other troops had DAKS, Stop still has DA/SA guns. Using the 1911 safety as a decock with immediate holstering will be unsafe.

They will learn it and they are getting great guns. It would be nice if a record of safe use by them translated to general issue.

 

[drgrant]

The M&Pc is 0.41" longer, 0.13" taller, and 0.02" wider than a G26. That's hardly ten times the size.

To me it feels like an order of magnitude. Just my opinion. I've had bloated compacts and skinny ones, and have carried all of them at some point or another. I'd say the same thing about something like a Kahr PM9 vs the G26. The M&Pc is probably not quite as bad as a P99c/SW99c, but it's probably close, and then the XD sub is somewhere in there, and then you have the fat guns like the HK USPc, etc.

-Mike

 

[Bolio]

Saw a Trooper today with an M&P45 in her holster.

Sorry nothing else to add to this thread...

 

[PaulD]

Saw a Trooper today with an M&P45 in her holster.

Sorry nothing else to add to this thread...

I think I know the answer, but was she hot?