MSP transitioning to M&P45?

[mark056]

You would lose that bet. Having been an armorer, I worked with and own most generations(lately have not seen many Gen1, on the flip side more Gen3 than Gen4 but they have been in).

The grip size on the 3 and 4 (G17)do not differ much out of the box except for texture and that 2MM shorter intergrated backstrap with 2 additional backstraps of 2MM each.
I also shoot my Gen4 weekly. Currently on RC about 1550.( please do not take any offense just my careless opinion).

From what I am remebering when I bought an M&P when they first came out(sold it last year), you have to take out the tool (Rotate 90degrees) at the bottom of the magazine well to replace/change the grip. I found with repeated use/movement (of the tool) the plastic wears out as would any other plastic part.

My understanding is that S&W is advising armorers to encourage personnel to use the tip of a ball point pen or a paper clip instead of the tool when field stripping the pistol as this can accelerate wear of the plastic. On the other hand, once a grip has been set, I can't see changing grips too often unless it is to issue the pistol to a new user.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mark,

They caught up with me!

I never once used the tool to flip the takedown lever. Always used a pen or tip of a knife, sometimes fingernail.

I can see a wear issue if one uses it in a class and everyone gets to flip grips over and over again. Like most users, I changed out the grips 2 or 3 times and it stays as is, thus everything is tight.

Tigersplint,

If it wears, you contact S&W and they will fix it, including replacing the frame if needed, all for free (even pay shipping both ways . . . something Glock will NOT do).

OK, I'm glad that I'm wrong and you know what this is all about. However, the fact is that none of our Glocks fit our hands properly (G17/22/23) and neither did the G21SF or Gen4 (probably G17) that I tried in the VT gunshop. Today there are officers smaller in stature than myself in my former PD, and one gun needs to fit everyone adequately to do the job with minimal training (100 rds/year).

 

[PaulD]

MSP issues Sig P226 in .40 for most units, with some P229s and even P239s going to specialized troopers. Sig still makes the P220 .45 which is carried by a few departments, but it only comes with an 8 round mag. New Hampshire State Police dumped the P220 for M&P45s...MSP might be thinking of doing the same.

The Nashua police also carry M&Ps of some sort, though I'm not sure which model.

 

[drgrant]

I have (it was in VT at a gun shop). I have small hands for a guy and the Gen4 allows you to ADD a grip making it bigger . . . OK, gorillas will be happy now.

Len, It's worth noting that some of the Gen 4s are SMALLER than their Gen3 counterparts without the panels installed. My Gen4 G17 is like this. I actually had to add the medium strap to it because it was actually too small without it. The medium strap brings it up to the size of a regular Gen3 G17. The 21s, however, without the straps, are exactly the same size as the 21SF.

The G21SF (that I wanted in the worst way, after reading all the hype and talking with Glock-US Gen'l Counsel) is still too big to fit my hand comfortably. It is 1/4" shallower front to back, but still not enough for my hands.

I dunno, different tastes I guess.... I have small hands, and the G21SF I have fits me perfect, as does the Gen4 G21 I have.

S&W solved this problem and Glock still does NOT have a suitable solution for the masses. [NOTE: I am not "anti-Glock" or "pro-S&W", just reporting what fits myself and my Wife. We both own a total of 3 Glocks and 3 M&Ps . . . guess which ones we shoot most often? And I'm not selling the Glocks, use them for training.]

Double Stack .45's in general are challenging for ergonomics. I think the SF and Gen4 Glocks are a step forward, but I don't think Glock is ever going to get the "better" you want in this regard, because they'd have to compromise the design of the gun to do it. About the only other thing they could do is make a version of the Gen4 which flattens the hump on the bottom of the frame, but I doubt they are going to go that route. Part of the reason the M&P .45 is probably more comfortable for you is the magazine size is designed to accommodate 10 rounds in a full size frame. The G21 frame is designed for a 13 round double stack mag. Unless Glock wants to create a "one off frankenmonster" they are not going to ever be able to please everyone. I thought the M&P .45 ergos were decent, but I'd have to stipple the grip panels... the guns I've tried were way too slippery.

-Mike

 

[PaulD]

Double Stack .45's in general are challenging for ergonomics. I think the SF and Gen4 Glocks are a step forward, but I don't think Glock is ever going to get the "better" you want in this regard, because they'd have to compromise the design of the gun to do it. About the only other thing they could do is make a version of the Gen4 which flattens the hump on the bottom of the frame, but I doubt they are going to go that route. Part of the reason the M&P .45 is probably more comfortable for you is the magazine size is designed to accommodate 10 rounds in a full size frame. The G21 frame is designed for a 13 round double stack mag. Unless Glock wants to create a "one off frankenmonster" they are not going to ever be able to please everyone. I thought the M&P .45 ergos were decent, but I'd have to stipple the grip panels... the guns I've tried were way too slippery.

-Mike

I think the number of rounds in the mag is a really big (pardon the pun) factor. The HK45 gets a lot of kudos for how comfortable the grip is. Then, in the same review they bitch about how it only carries 10 rounds where the FN .45 carries 15 or so. The HK45 has a nice grip because it's not really a doublestack. It's more like a 1.5 stack or so.

 

[M1911]

Double Stack .45's in general are challenging for ergonomics. I think the SF and Gen4 Glocks are a step forward, but I don't think Glock is ever going to get the "better" you want in this regard, because they'd have to compromise the design of the gun to do it. About the only other thing they could do is make a version of the Gen4 which flattens the hump on the bottom of the frame, but I doubt they are going to go that route. Part of the reason the M&P .45 is probably more comfortable for you is the magazine size is designed to accommodate 10 rounds in a full size frame. The G21 frame is designed for a 13 round double stack mag.

I think Glock's decision to use plastic for their magazine bodies was a mistake. If they had used steel, the magazine bodies would have been several millimeters thinner, and that would allow for a smaller grip circumference.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think Glock's decision to use plastic for their magazine bodies was a mistake. If they had used steel, the magazine bodies would have been several millimeters thinner, and that would allow for a smaller grip circumference.

Excellent point. Especially whereas the use a metal lining inside the plastic body for mags over the past 15-20 years.

 

[M1911]

Excellent point. Especially whereas the use a metal lining inside the plastic body for mags over the past 15-20 years.

Yup. And that liner can rust, so I fail to see the point behind the plastic body. But the liners were an afterthought, added when the US market complained about the non-dropfree mags.

I suspect the choice to use plastic bodies for the mags may have been driven more by dogma (use plastic for everything we can!) rather than by choosing the best material for the part.

 

[TY43215]

When all is said and done, it comes down to low bidder. As long as the specs for the proposed bid is met, the bid goes to the low bidder.

When Glock took over years ago, they did it by taking all existing firearms and leather in trade and replacing 1 for 1 plus belt gear plus armorer training. That is what got them the bid. From there, it was buy a few here and there for new recruits so no major budget problems in departments.

The person who engineered that agreement now works for S&W so they have become very aggressive in the LE bidding process. Sig shot themselves in the foot with the problems they had when they got the MSP contract with defective firearms. They did not last long as the issued sidearm.

The M&P 45 contract will be very good for S&W. I am sure you will see individual Troopers going for authorization for the 14 round magazines for at least the reloads. It makes sense.

I wish them luck. I still think the best LE caliber is 357SIG.

 

[M1911]

Sig shot themselves in the foot with the problems they had when they got the MSP contract with defective firearms. They did not last long as the issued sidearm.

What sort of problems were they having? Was this the 229 DAK?

 

[mark056]

I agree that the .357 Sig is probably the best overall LE semi-auto round today. It duplicates the old .357 125 gr semi-jacket hollowpoint which had a solid reputation for both stopping power and barrier penetration. For a while, the Texas Dept of Public safety issued both the P220 in .45 ACP and the P226 in .357 Sig, it was the officer's choice. They finally dropped the .45 ACP because they were getting better results with the .357 Sig.

I'm not knocking the .45 ACP, it is a proven caliber and I do carry and use an MP in .45 ACP, but if I lived in a free state I'd probably carry a .357Sig. Something just galls me about having to carry a neutered magazine. That's just me YMMV and I don't have any complaints about the .45 per se.

 

[mark056]

What sort of problems were they having? Was this the 229 DAK?

Quality control, too many guns going back to the factory because they were defective. The P226 DAK in .40 S&W was/is the standard issue with DIS personnel being issued the P239. I know of no P229s issued to MSP personnnel.

 

[M1911]

Quality control, too many guns going back to the factory because they were defective.

What sort of defects?

 

[stinx]

Lowell P.D. dumped Sig P-229's DAK that were under 4 years old because of numerous relibility issues. I was told lawsuits were in the works if the city did not do something about the guns.

 

[stinx]

Im told S&W is actively pursiung the Vermont State Police as well.

 

[TY43215]

What sort of defects?

Misfires, failure to feed all during initial range qualification. I believe the figure was 1/3 of the first issue but I may be mistaken.

 

[M1911]

Misfires, failure to feed all during initial range qualification. I believe the figure was 1/3 of the first issue but I may be mistaken.

Wow. That's one way to help the troopers have confidence in their guns

 

[OfficerObie59]

I'm curious. Anyone know why they are switching away from Glock and SIG? Adjustability of grip size?

Thats one of main reasons my dept. did it. We transitioned over from the old aluminum 3rd Gen S&W 4000's in .40S&W. For those officers with smaller hands, they were often forced to grip down to a 9mm.

Not really a big deal--until you have a SHTF scenario (i.e., active shooter) where you may need to use another officer's carry load.

The other bonus is with a virtually identical model in compact for admin (instead of having to get a different gun altogether), it streamlines training and other procurement logistics (holsters, etc.).

 

[tigersplint]

My understanding is that S&W is advising armorers to encourage personnel to use the tip of a ball point pen or a paper clip instead of the tool when field stripping the pistol as this can accelerate wear of the plastic. On the other hand, once a grip has been set, I can't see changing grips too often unless it is to issue the pistol to a new user.

There is just something fuzzy about a company that advises the enduser to not use the tool designed in use of field stripping and backstrap changing. Just seems like a design flaw, granted EVERY manufacturer has them. Also if more force than neccesary is used to push the sear disconnect during field stripping, it can cause some problems. Simple fix, don't muscle it.

 

[hk-sigman]

MSP was having parts failures with their P226DAK pistols. MSP requested information from SIG regarding the manufacturing of those parts. SIG refused to comply with those rquests. SIG shot themselves in the foot. They are using inferior parts from outside vendors. The M&P 45 is one of the best polymer 45's on the market. MSP made a fine choice.

 

[TY43215]

Not really a big deal--until you have a SHTF scenario (i.e., active shooter) where you may need to use another officer's carry load.
.

My argument with that was always this, If you used up all your ammo and didn't hit anything, what makes you think I will give you mine to waste? I know I will hit what I am shooting at and if I am incapacitated, use my issue or my backup

 

[OfficerObie59]

My argument with that was always this, If you used up all your ammo and didn't hit anything, what makes you think I will give you mine to waste? I know I will hit what I am shooting at and if I am incapacitated, use my issue or my backup

Incapacitated may mean "dead", in which case you won't be using anything.

Furthermore, you can train all you want and score 100 on every quall--if you can say with absolute certainty you will hit everything you aim at in a SHTF scenario without ever being involved in one, you are either ignorant as to what happens pysiologically to the human body or have whopping amounts of hubris.

 

[vellnueve]

There is just something fuzzy about a company that advises the enduser to not use the tool designed in use of field stripping and backstrap changing. Just seems like a design flaw, granted EVERY manufacturer has them. Also if more force than neccesary is used to push the sear disconnect during field stripping, it can cause some problems. Simple fix, don't muscle it.

Do you work for Glock or are you just a Glock fanboy?

 

[TY43215]

Incapacitated may mean "dead", in which case you won't be using anything.
if you can say with absolute certainty you will hit everything you aim at in a SHTF scenario without ever being involved in one, .

You assume a lot.

The fact that most Police Officer NEVER practice between qualifications and most never learn to properly use most of the tools they are issued will make me stand by my statement. As for your statement above, that is when you can use my ammo along with my firearms. Until that time, I would never have given up either.

I am very glad I am out of the profession and will end my comment there. What you learn in books was written by many that learned on the street.

 

[OfficerObie59]

My argument with that was always this...

...As for your statement above, that is when you can use my ammo along with my firearms. Until that time, I would never have given up either.

Hence my point with there being a possible scenario where ammo compatability would be beneficial and which, quite respectfully, is a situation where your argument would not apply.

Again, I don't deny that MOST police officers don't practice with their issued tools other than on range day, but we're also talking here about a possible scenario that an even smaller fraction of officers will likely ever encounter.

I for one practice quite often, but again, one's ability to maintain fine motor skills and fire accurately with tunnel vision under life-and-death stress is something nearly impossible to replicate in a training enviornment. All I know is I had some damn near realistic training prior to combat, but there is nothing like actually having RPG's and 7.62x39's sent your way.

Ones's best bet (and I say "bet" because nothing is a guarantee) is to practice to the degree where there's good odds "muscle memory" will take over and your acts are almost non-volitional.

 

[tigersplint]

Do you work for Glock or are you just a Glock fanboy?

Neither, that is just straight fact. And if it was thought otherwise, the company deserves your money.
It's the same principle as if it were anything else. You might see it as "WE at (insert ANY manufacturer) would like to encourage the enduser to NOT use the specific tool engineered for a specific job that is in the user manual as it may cause an accelerated wear on the product otherwise not occuring with normal repeated use."
It happens in every field. And the people who know about it the most, are usually the mechanics/armorers/self-fixers.
Will you ever get a manufacturere to admit a mistake? Not without a court action. It's bad for business and why would you want to say you made a mistake? It would be better for them to advise the user to use a method not in the manual. Fortunately for S&W, they would advise using a pen cap or similar item, somewhere in a press release or in an updated manual, when disengaging the sear disconnect lever.

But I digress. Kudos to S&W for getting the contract. They are itching to get back in the LEO market big time.

 

[tigersplint]

Hence my point with there being a possible scenario where ammo compatability would be beneficial and which, quite respectfully, is a situation where your argument would not apply.

Again, I don't deny that MOST police officers don't practice with their issued tools other than on range day, but we're also talking here about a possible scenario that an even smaller fraction of officers will likely ever encounter.

I for one practice quite often, but again, one's ability to maintain fine motor skills and fire accurately with tunnel vision under life-and-death stress is something nearly impossible to replicate in a training enviornment. All I know is I had some damn near realistic training prior to combat, but there is nothing like actually having RPG's and 7.62x39's sent your way.

Ones's best bet (and I say "bet" because nothing is a guarantee) is to practice to the degree where there's good odds "muscle memory" will take over and your acts are almost non-volitional.

You are correct. It is Impossible to know how you will react untill you are in the same battle situation. Anyone who says different is a liar. And even then, it will be different everytime. And once you are desensitized, muscle memory will kick in and you will keep cm. Most people report that after the fact, they blacked out and did not know what actions they had taken.

 

[drgrant]

Neither, that is just straight fact. And if it was thought otherwise, the company deserves your money.
It's the same principle as if it were anything else. You might see it as "WE at (insert ANY manufacturer) would like to encourage the enduser to NOT use the specific tool engineered for a specific job that is in the user manual as it may cause an accelerated wear on the product otherwise not occuring with normal repeated use."
It happens in every field. And the people who know about it the most, are usually the mechanics/armorers/self-fixers.
Will you ever get a manufacturere to admit a mistake? Not without a court action. It's bad for business and why would you want to say you made a mistake? It would be better for them to advise the user to use a method not in the manual. Fortunately for S&W, they would advise using a pen cap or similar item, somewhere in a press release or in an updated manual, when disengaging the sear disconnect lever.

But I digress. Kudos to S&W for getting the contract. They are itching to get back in the LEO market big time.

I'm not really a huge fan of the M&P and IMHO you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Outside of an "exigent" circumstance, no sane person would use the backstrap pin thing to push the takedown lever, as it's too much of a pain in the ass to remove it from the gun constantly, anyways. You could use a cleaning brush, a plastic cleaning rod, or any of the myriad of objects likely to be on someone's gun bench while they're cleaning the gun. Hell, the swiss army knife that's always in my pocket would probably have something on it that could be used to press the pin.

If I owned an M&P I'd find a way to remove the whole damned thing or just get it so I could take the slide off without using the stupid lever.

BTW, in terms of "having defects and never admitting mistakes" Glock is pretty much the crowned KING of that, and I own more Glocks than everything else combined. For example the Gen4 G19s and G17s that came out originally were completely ****ed up, but Glock would never admit they ****ed up. I will say though that I got my "early" Gen4 G17 back from them in 2 weeks and it's basically perfect now. (It was having massive ejection problems). Even the trigger feels better too,f or some reason. (Another defect with some of the Gen4 guns floating around out there that they won't acknowledge). In the end though I don't really care what kind of smoke Glock wants to blow, as long as I get a good pistol out of the deal, and all of mine have been excellent. This is literally the first gun I've had to send to them in the past 4 years. )

While I'm at it, Beretta, Sig (Any mosquito owner knows what I'm talking about... talk about a train of lies) HK, and probably numerous others, are all guilty of the same brand of "offenses"... so the type of stuff you're talking about, is pretty much par for the course for a number of manufacturers.

-Mike

 

[vellnueve]

I just pull the damned trigger and the slide comes off. I don't see why it's a big deal. For those PDs that oppose this practice, they have the takedown lever.

 

[FSTC]

S&W press release about MSP and VSP


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/smith--wesson-converts-two-state-agencies-to-the-mp-pistol-135431068.html