MSP Instructor Survey

[JDL]

This should not be part of the safety class. As stated before firearm instructors are not qualified to do mental health counciling and opens the door to being sued if someone that takes your class comits suicide. I started the survey In good Faith however stopped once this survey started going off the rails in the suicide direction and just backed out and deleted

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Any comprehensive discussion of suicide prevention in a gun class must include coverage of the concept that a person who feels the might be suicidal must balance the benefit of getting help vs. the adverse consequences of having the tag of "received psychiatric treatment" attached to them for the rest of their life, with possible adverse consequences on their right to possess firearms or qualify for a carry permit. Be sure to mention that many state's carry permit applications require a very broad waiver releasing all mental health treatment records for the licensing official to consider.

Care to think how having a record of counseling for suicidal ideation will down if NYC or NJ is reviewing your carry permit application?

Another topic is that if someone is contemplating a rational suicide (for example, being in the advanced stages of ALS or a very painful universally fatal disease) they should not use a gun because it can be painful; messy; and used as a statistic against gun ownership.

 

[Buck F]

Spot on.... I've lost several friends over the years from Suicide. Thankfully, none related to gun violence. For MSP to put this out, it is obviously high up on their list. I really don't see this as an issue. For us to spend 5 minutes with a UTAH style PowerPoint presentation is worth it IMHO.

So suicide is now gun violence too?

We get it, you lost people to suicide. Many of us have. Suicide sucks, no one is disputing that. That doesn’t change the fact that a gun safety class has zero to do with suicide prevention.

I find it astonishing that you think that because the MSP is pushing this that it somehow justifies it.

If you feel that strongly about suicide prevention then get some training and volunteer somewhere that may actually do some good.

 

[MassPete]

So suicide is now gun violence too?

We get it, you lost people to suicide. Many of us have. Suicide sucks, no one is disputing that. That doesn’t change the fact that a gun safety class has zero to do with suicide prevention.

I find it astonishing that you think that because the MSP is pushing this that it somehow justifies it.

If you feel that strongly about suicide prevention then get some training and volunteer somewhere that may actually do some good.

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to my wife when you guys pick apart my statements. We are all on the same team here.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This survey is quite obviously a set-up by EOPS to "prove" that guns are dangerous and leads to more suicides.

Students don't absorb more than 10-20% of what we teach in the BFS class anyway, and adding this won't help.

I knew (in a casual sense) a handful of people who committed suicide and nobody ever recognized how troubled the person was in advance. Only perhaps someone specifically trained in dealing with mental health issues might have spotted something that the rest of us normal folks never was able to see. A PPT presentation or even a brochure won't do it however.

 

[Buck F]

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to my wife when you guys pick apart my statements. We are all on the same team here.

Hopefully she’s better looking than I am. This is NES, you can’t keep lobbing meatballs and not expecting someone to swing…

 

[Dennis in MA]

The harm is that guns don't cause suicides and including it in the class implies that they do. If an individual instructor wants to touch on it in class that's fine but we're talking about the State mandating it as part of the course - that's what the survey is about. As I mentioned, I know three people in two years who committed suicide by hanging, I don't know a single person who has shot themselves. We teach the gun safety class. Suicide is not a gun safety issue, it's a mental health issue.

S.W.A.G. - you live in Assonet????

This survey is quite obviously a set-up by EOPS to "prove" that guns are dangerous and leads to more suicides.

Students don't absorb more than 10-20% of what we teach in the BFS class anyway, and adding this won't help.

I knew (in a casual sense) a handful of people who committed suicide and nobody ever recognized how troubled the person was in advance. Only perhaps someone specifically trained in dealing with mental health issues might have spotted something that the rest of us normal folks never was able to see. A PPT presentation or even a brochure won't do it however.

Oh come on. Next you'll tell me that some struggle to answer the OPEN BOOK test inside of the time allotted. LOL

Funniest moments in my mASS mandated class 20+ years ago: First - some kid stands up about 2 minutes into the class. "Sir. I am currently carrying my sidearm. Should I relinquish it to you?!" Instructor took him to the range. They came back. Instructor then had a 5 min sidebar about concealed-means-concealed.

About 3 hours later, talking about cleaning and dangers of guns and such. Instructor asks, "Do you know why people die of gunshot wounds while cleaning their guns?" It was 3+ hours of droning without a break. My brain engaged my mouth before the higher functions could take over. "Some sort of Darwinism?" Out loud. To the entire class. No one laughed. ROFL!!!! Not sure if it was the ruining-a-Saturday thing or they were not humorous people.

 

[Mesatchornug]

S.W.A.G. - you live in Assonet????



Oh come on. Next you'll tell me that some struggle to answer the OPEN BOOK test inside of the time allotted. LOL

Funniest moments in my mASS mandated class 20+ years ago: First - some kid stands up about 2 minutes into the class. "Sir. I am currently carrying my sidearm. Should I relinquish it to you?!" Instructor took him to the range. They came back. Instructor then had a 5 min sidebar about concealed-means-concealed.

About 3 hours later, talking about cleaning and dangers of guns and such. Instructor asks, "Do you know why people die of gunshot wounds while cleaning their guns?" It was 3+ hours of droning without a break. My brain engaged my mouth before the higher functions could take over. "Some sort of Darwinism?" Out loud. To the entire class. No one laughed. ROFL!!!! Not sure if it was the ruining-a-Saturday thing or they were not humorous people.

I'd have laughed.
If I was the instructor, I'd have called for a round of applause.

 

[Knob Creek]

Got the same survey again today.

 

[EMTDAD]

after reading all this.. .email goes in deleted folder.

 

[MaverickNH]

Options for safe storage of firearms to keep them out of the hands of those who might steal them or use them to harm themselves or others is fair game in a gun safety class. Just mentioning kids who steal their relative’s gun to shoot themself or others should be all that’s needed to remind people to make a choice based on their situation.

I took an 8hr Mental Health First Aid course recently as part of CERT training, which had a large suicide awareness component. All they did was acknowledge guns are often used in suicides and that friends and family play a large role in helping work through mental health assistance and mitigations without police or courts involved. If such a course doesn’t delve into the issue deeply, gun safety courses are not the place to deal with it either.

 

[Buck F]

S.W.A.G. - you live in Assonet????

I'd have laughed.
If I was the instructor, I'd have called for a round of applause.

I must be missing the joke, someone please explain...

 

[Mesatchornug]

I must be missing the joke, someone please explain...

I was laughing at the class joke -

instructor: "Do you know why people die of gunshot wounds while cleaning their guns?"
Dennis: "Some sort of Darwinism?"
[...] No one laughed.

 

[tuna]

About 3 hours later, talking about cleaning and dangers of guns and such. Instructor asks, "Do you know why people die of gunshot wounds while cleaning their guns?" It was 3+ hours of droning without a break. My brain engaged my mouth before the higher functions could take over. "Some sort of Darwinism?" Out loud. To the entire class. No one laughed. ROFL!!!! Not sure if it was the ruining-a-Saturday thing or they were not humorous people.

This is the problem with most instructor led discussions about suicide - it devolves into stupidity. I've taken many suicide prevention classes in the military, and I think 3 minutes total have been serious, while the rest have been open mike night at the dark humor bar and grill.

I have a very unpopular opinion on suicide already - forcing me to listen to a discussion doesn't improve anything for anyone.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I must be missing the joke, someone please explain...

SE Mass - Assonet???? Silly Wild Ass Guess


Darwinism was a good guess on my part. And pretty callous. But it was 3 hours in and I was bored. LOL

 

[safetyfirst2125]

I don’t understand what there is to “teach” here.

“Class, don’t kill yourself. Any questions?”

 

[milktree]

I'm pretty sure it's already required (changed a couple years ago) but the format isn't prescribed.

I have no memory of that. Doesn't even sound familiar when you say it.

How might the state have promulgated that requirement?

 

[Buck F]

SE Mass - Assonet???? Silly Wild Ass Guess


Darwinism was a good guess on my part. And pretty callous. But it was 3 hours in and I was bored. LOL

Not Assonet... and I still have no idea what you're talking about

 

[RKG]

I took the survey yesterday. I replied that I do not address the question of suicide, and I did not think it should be part of BFS training, because, as Len said, it is not within my skill set. I can teach someone how firearms work, I can teach them how to handle firearms safely and minimize the number of times you end up hurting the wrong person, I can teach them something about how to hit a target you want to shoot, and (being an attorney) I can teach them something about Massachusetts legal requirements (mainly storage, transportation, and the "no schools carry" prohibition). I have no training, education, or expertise about suicide. I generally try to avoid preaching about things I don't know anything about.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I have no memory of that. Doesn't even sound familiar when you say it.

How might the state have promulgated that requirement?

I think that when the ERPO bill passed there was language requiring instructors and/or dealers to provide information about suicide/hotlines in our required discussion of legal info. Looking back now, I'm not seeing any (obvious) info to support that memory.

I'm probably mistaken.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Not Assonet... and I still have no idea what you're talking about

I had a buddy that hung himself earlier this year in Assonet. You saw several - that was my first ever.

 

[Buck F]

I had a buddy that hung himself earlier this year in Assonet. You saw several - that was my first ever.

Ah, got it. Yeah, it sucked, three in a two year period. One was a 14 year old child of a friend of mine, that was far and away the worst. The other two were immediate family of people very close to me, I knew them both, one elderly and the other in his late 40's.

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Umm okay. But what does this have to do with guns? In all seriousness, if someone wants to off themselves they don't need a gun to do it and there are much easier ways that they'll have much quicker access to.

It's a waste of time in a gun safety class. Anyone who wants to kill themselves in this state, is not going to go through a class, apply for a license, waiting God knows how long to get the license, to then go buy a gun to do the deed. They can just go park their car in a garage start it and take a nap. Like I said there are far easier more efficient ways that don't require the Herculean effort that it takes to get an LTC in this state. This really has no place in this class.

 

[Buck F]

They can just go park their car in a garage start it and take a nap.

As long as their garage doesn't have a Co2 detector and a monitored alarm system. I didn't realize my garage did until I sold my home last year and did the smoke/Co2 detector inspection. New house has one too (depends on code, year updated, etc.)

 

[PATRON]

I had a partner at Brinks who one morning got into the Armored truck, threw the dead bolts on the door, and blew his brains out.
I worked 15 hours a day for 4 years with this guy,and never had a clue he was going to do that.I think having us talk about suicide
without being trained to do so is dangerous,and stupid.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Should the same be done for when someone buys a car? or gets pills? Or alcohol? or razor blades? or rope?

 

[Chevy 2 65]

I had a buddy that hung himself earlier this year in Assonet. You saw several - that was my first ever.

Same about 20 yrs ago. Building a house in Berkeley. Show up the next morning and one of the guys working on the house with us is hanging from the floor joist.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Lost a friend in 9th grade. I suspect autoerotic asphyxiation as what was disclosed about the scene fit the profile (hung himself in the shower at home), but discussing that publicly would have been worse that everyone assuming suicide for the very Catholic family. When it's a "Carridine style hanging", it's not suicide but an accident.

 

[tuna]

As long as their garage doesn't have a Co2 detector and a monitored alarm system. I didn't realize my garage did until I sold my home last year and did the smoke/Co2 detector inspection. New house has one too (depends on code, year updated, etc.)

I hate those CO detectors. Mine kept going off and giving me such a headache. This was in Spring, I finally removed it and was able to get a good nights sleep again.