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Microstamping Bill Comes to Massachusetts
- Thread starter GOAL
- Start date
It didn't in CA. The RINO Governator signed the bill.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
This is why I love NES!
These open discussions are what makes this group the absolute best. Hands down.
Oddly enough, isn't this bill mis-titled? You might ask yourself…”What ballistic database needs improving?”
Is there another bill that establishes a "Ballistic database"?
H.2293 in 2007 tried to establish such a database, but there's no language in this new bill that "improves" anything.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
These open discussions are what makes this group the absolute best. Hands down.
Oddly enough, isn't this bill mis-titled? You might ask yourself…”What ballistic database needs improving?”
Is there another bill that establishes a "Ballistic database"?
H.2293 in 2007 tried to establish such a database, but there's no language in this new bill that "improves" anything.
These open discussions are what makes this group the absolute best. Hands down.
Oddly enough, isn't this bill mis-titled? You might ask yourself…”What ballistic database needs improving?”
Is there another bill that establishes a "Ballistic database"?
H.2293 in 2007 tried to establish such a database, but there's no language in this new bill that "improves" anything.
Even better, this has absolutly nothing to do with ballistics. We're talking about tool marks, not rifiling marks. This has as much to do with ballistics as does a flash-hider with a gun being an actual assault rifle.
You have to love how these politicians try to push technology that has been debunked and is easily circumvented. I hope that it fails miserably in CA. The best thing would be if the manufacturers would just refuse to sell to everyone within the state including law enforcement when it goes in to effect.
FYI here is the bill and it's supporters
http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/house/186/ht02/ht02247.htm
HOUSE DOCKET, NO. 1190 FILED ON: 1/12/2009
HOUSE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No. 2247
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
_______________
PRESENTED BY:
David P. Linsky
_______________
To the Honorable Senate and House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in General
Court assembled:
The undersigned legislators and/or citizens respectfully petition for the passage of the accompanying bill:
An Act to improve the ballistic database through microstamping ammunition.
_______________
PETITION OF:
Name:
District/Address:
David P. Linsky
5th Middlesex
Thomas M. Menino
Michael F. Rush
10th Suffolk
Jeffrey Sánchez
15th Suffolk
Kevin G. Honan
17th Suffolk
Matthew C. Patrick
3rd Barnstable
Antonio F.D. Cabral
13th Bristol
Denise Provost
27th Middlesex
Thomas M. Stanley
9th Middlesex
Karen E. Spilka
Second Middlesex and Norfolk
Peter J. Koutoujian
10th Middlesex
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
_______________
In the Year Two Thousand and Nine
_______________
An Act to improve the ballistic database through microstamping ammunition.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
Chapter 269 of the General Laws, as appearing in the 2004 Official Edition, is hereby amended by deleting Section 11E and inserting the following new section:-
Chapter 269: Section 11E. Serial identification numbers on firearms.
Section 11E.
(A) All firearms, rifles and shotguns of new manufacture, manufactured or delivered to any licensed dealer within the commonwealth shall bear serial numbers permanently inscribed on a visible metal area of said firearm, rifle or shotgun, and the manufacturer of said firearm, rifle or shotgun shall keep records of said serial numbers and the dealer, distributor or person to whom the firearm, rifle or shotgun was sold or delivered.
No licensed dealer shall order for delivery, cause to be delivered, offer for sale or sell within the commonwealth any newly manufactured firearm, rifle or shotgun received directly from a manufacturer, wholesaler or distributor not so inscribed with a serial number nor shall any licensed manufacturer or distributor of firearms, rifles or shotguns deliver or cause to be delivered within the commonwealth any firearm, rifle or shotgun not complying with this section.
No licensed manufacturer within the commonwealth shall produce for sale within the United States, its territories or possessions any firearm, rifle or shotgun not complying with paragraph one of this section. Whoever violates this section shall be punished by a fine of five hundred dollars. Each such violation shall constitute a separate offense.
(B) All semiautomatic firearms as defined in Chapter 140 Section 21 manufactured or delivered to any licensed dealer within the commonwealth shall be capable of microstamping ammunition.
(C) For purposes of subparagraph (B), a firearm is capable of microstamping ammunition if –
(i) a microscopic array of characters that identify the make, model, and serial number of the of the firearm is etched into the breech face and firing pin of the firearm; and
(ii) when ammunition is fired from the firearm, the characters are copied from the breech face and firing pin onto the cartridge case of the ammunition.
(D) Subparagraph (B) shall apply only to semiautomatic firearms which –
(i) are manufactured, or imported into the Commonwealth on or after the effective date of this subsection; and
(ii) have not been transferred to a person not licensed under Chapter 140 of the general laws.
(D) Whoever violates paragraph (B) shall be fined an amount equal to –
(i) in the case of a first such violation by the violator, $1,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation;
(ii) in the case of a second violation by the violator, $2,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation;
(iii) in the case of a third such violation by the violator, $3,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation.
(E) The effective date of this act shall be January 1, 2010.
http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/house/186/ht02/ht02247.htm
HOUSE DOCKET, NO. 1190 FILED ON: 1/12/2009
HOUSE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No. 2247
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
_______________
PRESENTED BY:
David P. Linsky
_______________
To the Honorable Senate and House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in General
Court assembled:
The undersigned legislators and/or citizens respectfully petition for the passage of the accompanying bill:
An Act to improve the ballistic database through microstamping ammunition.
_______________
PETITION OF:
Name:
District/Address:
David P. Linsky
5th Middlesex
Thomas M. Menino
Michael F. Rush
10th Suffolk
Jeffrey Sánchez
15th Suffolk
Kevin G. Honan
17th Suffolk
Matthew C. Patrick
3rd Barnstable
Antonio F.D. Cabral
13th Bristol
Denise Provost
27th Middlesex
Thomas M. Stanley
9th Middlesex
Karen E. Spilka
Second Middlesex and Norfolk
Peter J. Koutoujian
10th Middlesex
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
_______________
In the Year Two Thousand and Nine
_______________
An Act to improve the ballistic database through microstamping ammunition.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
Chapter 269 of the General Laws, as appearing in the 2004 Official Edition, is hereby amended by deleting Section 11E and inserting the following new section:-
Chapter 269: Section 11E. Serial identification numbers on firearms.
Section 11E.
(A) All firearms, rifles and shotguns of new manufacture, manufactured or delivered to any licensed dealer within the commonwealth shall bear serial numbers permanently inscribed on a visible metal area of said firearm, rifle or shotgun, and the manufacturer of said firearm, rifle or shotgun shall keep records of said serial numbers and the dealer, distributor or person to whom the firearm, rifle or shotgun was sold or delivered.
No licensed dealer shall order for delivery, cause to be delivered, offer for sale or sell within the commonwealth any newly manufactured firearm, rifle or shotgun received directly from a manufacturer, wholesaler or distributor not so inscribed with a serial number nor shall any licensed manufacturer or distributor of firearms, rifles or shotguns deliver or cause to be delivered within the commonwealth any firearm, rifle or shotgun not complying with this section.
No licensed manufacturer within the commonwealth shall produce for sale within the United States, its territories or possessions any firearm, rifle or shotgun not complying with paragraph one of this section. Whoever violates this section shall be punished by a fine of five hundred dollars. Each such violation shall constitute a separate offense.
(B) All semiautomatic firearms as defined in Chapter 140 Section 21 manufactured or delivered to any licensed dealer within the commonwealth shall be capable of microstamping ammunition.
(C) For purposes of subparagraph (B), a firearm is capable of microstamping ammunition if –
(i) a microscopic array of characters that identify the make, model, and serial number of the of the firearm is etched into the breech face and firing pin of the firearm; and
(ii) when ammunition is fired from the firearm, the characters are copied from the breech face and firing pin onto the cartridge case of the ammunition.
(D) Subparagraph (B) shall apply only to semiautomatic firearms which –
(i) are manufactured, or imported into the Commonwealth on or after the effective date of this subsection; and
(ii) have not been transferred to a person not licensed under Chapter 140 of the general laws.
(D) Whoever violates paragraph (B) shall be fined an amount equal to –
(i) in the case of a first such violation by the violator, $1,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation;
(ii) in the case of a second violation by the violator, $2,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation;
(iii) in the case of a third such violation by the violator, $3,000 multiplied by the number of firearms involved in the violation.
(E) The effective date of this act shall be January 1, 2010.
Microstamping
One of the Micro-Stamping patten holders is a company here in New Hampshire. Since no one is going to implement their technology volunteerily, they have been aggressively marketing their technology to legilators around the country. They even made a presenation to the NH Judicial Committee.
Here's what has happen: NYC established a ballistics recording lab to record and attempt to match shell casing tool markings from crime scenes to help police link crimes.
New York (followed by other states) began requiring all newly purchased weapons submit a "factory fired" shell casing, which would be sent to the NYC ballistics database for recording, allowing the database to trace shells from crime scenes to their owners, even if the weapon had never been involved in a crime.
They quickly learned that this is almost useless as modern weapons are build to such tight manufacturing standards that there is more variation over a weapons useful life than between two newly made weapons.
Someone had the wonderful idea of specifically adding tool marks to a weapon that would make it unique and distinctive, making tracing much easier. Enter "Micro-Stamping"
Conventional micro-stamping is easily defeated, altered or otherwise destroyed by a simple polishing stone and the removal of such markings can only be determined by test firing.
In addition, as has been noted, stamped casings could be 1) reloaded or 2) planted to divert attention from the criminal and towards a law abiding citizen.
While the guise of this law is to improve the ballistic database to help catch criminals, it will be ineffective at best and is more likely targeted at making it ever harder to obtain a firearm in MA while discouraging people from exercising their 2nd ammendment rights.
One of the Micro-Stamping patten holders is a company here in New Hampshire. Since no one is going to implement their technology volunteerily, they have been aggressively marketing their technology to legilators around the country. They even made a presenation to the NH Judicial Committee.
Here's what has happen: NYC established a ballistics recording lab to record and attempt to match shell casing tool markings from crime scenes to help police link crimes.
New York (followed by other states) began requiring all newly purchased weapons submit a "factory fired" shell casing, which would be sent to the NYC ballistics database for recording, allowing the database to trace shells from crime scenes to their owners, even if the weapon had never been involved in a crime.
They quickly learned that this is almost useless as modern weapons are build to such tight manufacturing standards that there is more variation over a weapons useful life than between two newly made weapons.
Someone had the wonderful idea of specifically adding tool marks to a weapon that would make it unique and distinctive, making tracing much easier. Enter "Micro-Stamping"
Conventional micro-stamping is easily defeated, altered or otherwise destroyed by a simple polishing stone and the removal of such markings can only be determined by test firing.
In addition, as has been noted, stamped casings could be 1) reloaded or 2) planted to divert attention from the criminal and towards a law abiding citizen.
While the guise of this law is to improve the ballistic database to help catch criminals, it will be ineffective at best and is more likely targeted at making it ever harder to obtain a firearm in MA while discouraging people from exercising their 2nd ammendment rights.
yanici
NES Member
Remember guys, this micro-stamping will only be for semi's. Us wheel gun guys are more trustworthy and don't need no stinkin' micro-stamping.
What a stupid, stupid idea!! Totally unworkable. Who the hell stays up all night to think up this sh!%.
What a stupid, stupid idea!! Totally unworkable. Who the hell stays up all night to think up this sh!%.
I agree... I would go so far as to say that this bill is completely unconstitutional on the merits that it restricts ownership of a common class of guns. What is the likelihood that if this POS passes, that it will be struck down?
Furthermore, why has CA not tried to overturn the bill?
umd0808
NES Member
In case anyone was wondering what cities/towns they represent...
David P. Linsky 5th Middlesex (Millis, Natick, Sherborn)
Thomas M. Menino (Mumbles)
Michael F. Rush 10th Suffolk (Boston, Brookline)
Jeffrey Sánchez 15th Suffolk (Boston, Brookline)
Kevin G. Honan 17th Suffolk (Boston)
Matthew C. Patrick 3rd Barnstable (Barnstable, Bourne, Falmouth, Mashpee)
Antonio F.D. Cabral 13th Bristol (New Bedford)
Denise Provost 27th Middlesex (Somerville)
Thomas M. Stanley 9th Middlesex (Waltham, Lexington)
Karen E. Spilka Second Middlesex and Norfolk (Ashland, Framingham, Franklin, Holliston, Hopkinton, Medway, Natick)
Peter J. Koutoujian 10th Middlesex (Newton, Waltham, Watertown)
David P. Linsky 5th Middlesex (Millis, Natick, Sherborn)
Thomas M. Menino (Mumbles)
Michael F. Rush 10th Suffolk (Boston, Brookline)
Jeffrey Sánchez 15th Suffolk (Boston, Brookline)
Kevin G. Honan 17th Suffolk (Boston)
Matthew C. Patrick 3rd Barnstable (Barnstable, Bourne, Falmouth, Mashpee)
Antonio F.D. Cabral 13th Bristol (New Bedford)
Denise Provost 27th Middlesex (Somerville)
Thomas M. Stanley 9th Middlesex (Waltham, Lexington)
Karen E. Spilka Second Middlesex and Norfolk (Ashland, Framingham, Franklin, Holliston, Hopkinton, Medway, Natick)
Peter J. Koutoujian 10th Middlesex (Newton, Waltham, Watertown)
Natick, Mashpee, Boston, Brookline, New Bedford, Somerville, Waltham, Newton, Watertown: Yup, all big RED towns!!!!
How about they leave the rest of us ALONE....please for the love of GOD, go play with your own constituents and leave us OUT of your lunacy.
Look at how bankrupt that state is. They're beyond broke, and if tomorrow you proposed a bill in CA that cost the taxpayers 16 billions dollars and was to prevent McDonald's from selling cheese that came from unregistered cows they'd pass it.
The whole point is that this won't affect crime. They can't stop crime, and they somehow think that if Glock or Smith & Wesson go out of business that the gangbangers will all turn in their Lorcins and stolen Jennings.
They want to bankrupt the industry, which they're already trying to do through costly court battles. But a bill like this would decrease gun companies customer base and increase manufacturing costs, which would bring them a few steps closer to the edge.
We need to fight this, and hard.
The attitude expressed in your statement is one of the reasons we continue to lose the momentum in challenging unfair restrictions. I live in Boston and I know I'm alone in my pursuit for fairness. As long as gunowners continue to turn their backs on other gunowners whose right to bear arms is being infringed, we don't stand a chance of reversing the trend.
"United we stand, divided we fall."
Best Regards.
Michael Rush is a co-sponsor but GOAL gave him an A rating. How does that happen?
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I figured I would respond to some of the misinformation being discussed about Microstamping:
1. It is being offered by the patent holder royalty free
2. The processing costs <$12 per firearm in low volume (<10000 units/year) and <$4 per firearm for volumes >75,000 units per year.
3. The microstamping codes are assigned to the serial number at final assembly, there is no need to track the microstamp through the manufacturing cycle. It is produced on the parts and placed into inventory. (This is currently done for the Department of Defense without a problem to comply with the IUID / UII program)
http://www.uidsolutions.com/c/cnt/down/newsletter-winter07.pdf
4. The technology is a method to increase the quality of the physical evidence found at a crime scene when a straw purchased firearm is used in a crime and is not recovered.
5. The technology is completely benign since the microstamping codes reside at the manufacturer site – there is no national database, nor is there a need for state databases – this is just an evidence enhancement technology
Microstamping is no more susceptible to tampering then current microstamped serial numbers that are on all semiautomatic handguns already sold in Massachusetts. Yes, Massachusetts firearms already have small microstamped codes on them. And firearms found at crime scenes that have these codes have yet to be detected by common criminals. In fact no record can found where a crime gun with such markings has yet to be tampered with in nearly 10 years. Roughly 10% of firearms are tampered with and even so, this is nearly 99% tampering with the large serial number on the slide or frame.
There has yet to be a forensic technology implemented that has created a paradigm shift in the intelligence of common criminals.
So what does microstamping accomplish for law enforcement?:
1. It provides evidence that can be integrated together to identify a firearm, without having to recover the firearm.
2. It provides the freshest piece of INTEL possible for intelligence led policing of firearm trafficking / straw purchasing.
3. It specifically targets those individuals who engage in trafficking of firearms.
So what does microstamping accomplish for firearm owners?
1. It provides a technology that will allow the firearm industry to work closely with local law enforcement and allow them to isolate the BATF to only national level work. Basically it neuters the ATF’s method of centralized control, by securing the codes into the manufacturers site, while establishing links to local levels instead of federal levels.
2. It will side track the secret program being developed by the BATF using 3D scanning image technology for new guns. Do you really think the ATF is going to install a $0.5 Billion worth f computer hardware and network and not upgrade it? Google 3D Bullet and cartridge scanning or go to:
http://www.fti-ibis.com/DOWNLOADS/Brochures/BULLETTRAX-3D.pdf
http://www.fti-ibis.com/DOWNLOADS/Brochures/IBIS_BRASSTRAX-3D_H2_2PFlyer_EN.pdf
The NSSF and NRA failed to understand imaging and it ended up getting installed in MD and NY. The fact is the BATF wants to be the center of the universe when it comes to imaging databases of new firearms. It is coming.
However, microstamping negates the need for imaging of new firearms. Once again microstamping will allow the industry to control its future and it will also allow the industry and the NSSF to set the agenda for fighting criminal firearm trafficking.
3. It provides a means to combat truly insidious technologies such as Bullet serialization.
4. It provides a means to combat a technology that up until now has been kept quite by the NSSF and the NRA – which is the IUID program which is a fully working centralized database for tracking firearm and light weapons for the DOD / Military. This system has the long term goal of using RFID to track weapons and since the NSSF and NRA seem to not be fighting its development, it is going to be hard for them to say it doesn’t work or will violate privacy when it is shown to work for the military. RFID of firearms – it is coming – Microstamping blocks the need for that technology.
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3192/1/1/
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3643/1/1/
http://scienceandresearch.homeoffic...y/25_06_RFIDWeapArmouryManagement?view=Binary
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dpap/pdi/uid/attachments/SmallArms.pdf
http://www.afcea-middlegeorgia.org/Library/2-26-130-Jones.pdf
5. It provides a means to stop national and state level registration, since microstamping and its evolution will target those who violate their 2nd amendment rights and sell firearms to criminals.
6. It will negate the need for any type of firearm ban since it targets traffickers and straw purchasers and their criminal networks.
I am sick and tired of the lawyers making arguments, either we need to take control and find solutions that the industry can control, so that they are in the drivers seat instead of the Federal government and the anti-gun movement.
There is a history out there that many do not want to remember: 1934, 1968 and even in 2002. 1968 Gun Control Act, was supported by the NRA and that gave us the ATF / FFL system. Everybody seems to worry about national registration, heck, the NRA gave us that when they agreed to the 1968 GCA. Everyone who works with guns, sells gun and modifies guns are in the ATF FFL database.
Let’s try to find a way to regain control by allowing the firearm industry to be in control of the data.
That is just my point of view.
1. It is being offered by the patent holder royalty free
2. The processing costs <$12 per firearm in low volume (<10000 units/year) and <$4 per firearm for volumes >75,000 units per year.
3. The microstamping codes are assigned to the serial number at final assembly, there is no need to track the microstamp through the manufacturing cycle. It is produced on the parts and placed into inventory. (This is currently done for the Department of Defense without a problem to comply with the IUID / UII program)
http://www.uidsolutions.com/c/cnt/down/newsletter-winter07.pdf
4. The technology is a method to increase the quality of the physical evidence found at a crime scene when a straw purchased firearm is used in a crime and is not recovered.
5. The technology is completely benign since the microstamping codes reside at the manufacturer site – there is no national database, nor is there a need for state databases – this is just an evidence enhancement technology
Microstamping is no more susceptible to tampering then current microstamped serial numbers that are on all semiautomatic handguns already sold in Massachusetts. Yes, Massachusetts firearms already have small microstamped codes on them. And firearms found at crime scenes that have these codes have yet to be detected by common criminals. In fact no record can found where a crime gun with such markings has yet to be tampered with in nearly 10 years. Roughly 10% of firearms are tampered with and even so, this is nearly 99% tampering with the large serial number on the slide or frame.
There has yet to be a forensic technology implemented that has created a paradigm shift in the intelligence of common criminals.
So what does microstamping accomplish for law enforcement?:
1. It provides evidence that can be integrated together to identify a firearm, without having to recover the firearm.
2. It provides the freshest piece of INTEL possible for intelligence led policing of firearm trafficking / straw purchasing.
3. It specifically targets those individuals who engage in trafficking of firearms.
So what does microstamping accomplish for firearm owners?
1. It provides a technology that will allow the firearm industry to work closely with local law enforcement and allow them to isolate the BATF to only national level work. Basically it neuters the ATF’s method of centralized control, by securing the codes into the manufacturers site, while establishing links to local levels instead of federal levels.
2. It will side track the secret program being developed by the BATF using 3D scanning image technology for new guns. Do you really think the ATF is going to install a $0.5 Billion worth f computer hardware and network and not upgrade it? Google 3D Bullet and cartridge scanning or go to:
http://www.fti-ibis.com/DOWNLOADS/Brochures/BULLETTRAX-3D.pdf
http://www.fti-ibis.com/DOWNLOADS/Brochures/IBIS_BRASSTRAX-3D_H2_2PFlyer_EN.pdf
The NSSF and NRA failed to understand imaging and it ended up getting installed in MD and NY. The fact is the BATF wants to be the center of the universe when it comes to imaging databases of new firearms. It is coming.
However, microstamping negates the need for imaging of new firearms. Once again microstamping will allow the industry to control its future and it will also allow the industry and the NSSF to set the agenda for fighting criminal firearm trafficking.
3. It provides a means to combat truly insidious technologies such as Bullet serialization.
4. It provides a means to combat a technology that up until now has been kept quite by the NSSF and the NRA – which is the IUID program which is a fully working centralized database for tracking firearm and light weapons for the DOD / Military. This system has the long term goal of using RFID to track weapons and since the NSSF and NRA seem to not be fighting its development, it is going to be hard for them to say it doesn’t work or will violate privacy when it is shown to work for the military. RFID of firearms – it is coming – Microstamping blocks the need for that technology.
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3192/1/1/
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3643/1/1/
http://scienceandresearch.homeoffic...y/25_06_RFIDWeapArmouryManagement?view=Binary
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dpap/pdi/uid/attachments/SmallArms.pdf
http://www.afcea-middlegeorgia.org/Library/2-26-130-Jones.pdf
5. It provides a means to stop national and state level registration, since microstamping and its evolution will target those who violate their 2nd amendment rights and sell firearms to criminals.
6. It will negate the need for any type of firearm ban since it targets traffickers and straw purchasers and their criminal networks.
I am sick and tired of the lawyers making arguments, either we need to take control and find solutions that the industry can control, so that they are in the drivers seat instead of the Federal government and the anti-gun movement.
There is a history out there that many do not want to remember: 1934, 1968 and even in 2002. 1968 Gun Control Act, was supported by the NRA and that gave us the ATF / FFL system. Everybody seems to worry about national registration, heck, the NRA gave us that when they agreed to the 1968 GCA. Everyone who works with guns, sells gun and modifies guns are in the ATF FFL database.
Let’s try to find a way to regain control by allowing the firearm industry to be in control of the data.
That is just my point of view.
Microstamper- what prevents someone from removing/replacing these parts? I assume it it FP or striker? These are easily servicable parts currently- and should be... are you saying this will no longer be the case? I think we know that in MA there are S/Ns in several places on some guns...the reality is the only one that really matters to us gun owners is the frame.
I think we're all interested in putting illegals behind jail... I'm just not convinced this is the right way to do it.
I think we're all interested in putting illegals behind jail... I'm just not convinced this is the right way to do it.
Microstamper, I have to ask. Are you financially involved with microstamping? Because your message reads a bit like astroturfing to me.
No, no! It sounds like microstamping offers an opportunity for gun makers, sellers and owners to seize the moment, grab the bull by both horns, and choose our destiny once and for all.
Microstamp our guns and fight the power!
I want to know more!
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
For now, anyway.
And you know this how? Seems to me that S&W has already said that it will add more like >$200 per gun... and I'd think that they would know their manufacturing costs and procedures better than YOU would.
Exactly how? If the gun has been a straw purchase, what possible use is the number?
Again... for now. I can easily see the BATF deciding unilaterally to require manufacturers to turn over their databases... "for the children". Nope, sorry... whenever registration turns up, confiscation follows close behind.
Oh, really? Where? Got any proof of that assertion, or are you merely talking about all the extra serial numbers stamped on the frame, etc?
Again... where is your PROOF of this?
All you're saying is that you're compromising with our rights... and compromise never works. And it's not going to work here, either. No, sorry... it's time to stop compromising.
Registering the guns with the manufacturer will find a way to stop registration? Have you been sniffing GunScrubber or something? Please explain this mechanism.
Again... exactly how? All I see are a lot of assertions with absolutely no backup for any of them.
I'm guessing from your login name that you're either the patent holder or the turkey who's pushing this bill.
I am too... Let's try and enforce the laws on the books and stop persecuting law abiding gun owners. This technology is the new "Star Wars" for the Anti Gun crowd.
- Too costly to implement
- F*cks over law abiding gun owners
- Makes Police waste valuable resources chasing the wrong people
- Easy to defeat
- Easy to falsify the crime scene
Yes, I am angry too. Maybe we need to place a GPS tracker in you car, enable GPS tracking on your phone, wire tap you home phones, and monitor your internet usage... Just in case someone steals your car, kills someone, makes a call to their friends to help clean up the mess and then goes to your home and uses your internet to try and cover up their mistake.
This technology is pure BS. You are leading the Police to the person who had their gun stolen! WOW! That is an AWESOME breakthrough. Wow, going to the person who DID NOT commit the crime: Because we in Assachusetts need to notify our local Police when our guns are stolen.
Personally, I hope every gun manufacturer tells you to stick this up your ass sideways and f*cks us over, so we can go to the Supreme Court and overrule your BULLSHIT technology.
Since you are so trusting of your common man, maybe you can whore out this technology to other free states and see what happens. Like I said, ************
I am SOOOOO tired of being persecuted.
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![[troll]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/016.gif "Troll [troll]")
+1 Well summed up.
gentlemen, we can disagree with this poster (or any poster) but lets do it in a respectful way. Discussion is good, but name calling and gratuitous insults do not put anyone in a good light.
FWIW, I disagree with the poster as well.
FWIW, I disagree with the poster as well.
Does anyone have any stats showing that the microstamping that has been done has solved any crimes?
EVERY law, no matter how small and seemingly sensible must be weighed against its cost and impingement on freedom.
Particularly any law which limits what I can buy, increases the price of what I buy, requires registration of what I buy or otherwise changes my behavior in any way.
No matter how much it might make law enforcement's life easier, it has a heavy burden of proof to satisfy before I am ok with it...
There are a great many things that would make LEO's lives/jobs easier, but the cost in terms of freedom (and money=freedom so taxes and price inflation count) outweighs them....
For instance, it would be nice to just hold people without trial indefinitely. LEOs often know very well who the "bad guys" are after some time on the job. But we don't let them just round them up because we understand this would lead to abuse...
The moment registration of something I purchase, or me as a purchaser is required and I am "cataloged" is the moment I am now exposed to abuse or accident which could take my life or freedom...
If my fingerprints were never in the system because I have never been convicted of a crime - there is NO possibility that I could be wrongly identified by a finger print search...
Instead, I am now at risk of mistakenly being associated with a crime by virtue of my presence in that database...
There is NO harmless form of registration. ALL required registration of product or consumer by government has a "down side" risk to freedom...
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