Marlin to Re-Release the 1895 in 45-70 by end of year.

[38ExtraSpecial]

Pic of the day I brought home the ‘92 for $600 from Old Glory. I was surprised by the condition. I shouldn’t have been since who shoots these guns daily if at all? Still love it.
View attachment 554935

I’ll give you $625 for it.

 

[DJBrad]

I’ll give you $625 for it.

2x 1oz. gold Buffaloes and we’ll call it a deal

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

2x 1oz. gold Buffaloes and we’ll call it a deal

Is plated ok ?

If it were a 45 colt I would be all over it. I do have a 44 special that was made from a 44 mag. Sexy upgraded wood. Lyman tang sight. It’s not a magnum but they move pretty fast out of that barrel anyway.

 

[DJBrad]

Is plated ok ?

If it were a 45 colt I would be all over it. I do have a 44 special that was made from a 44 mag. Sexy upgraded wood. Lyman tang sight. It’s not a magnum but they move pretty fast out of that barrel anyway.

Nothing like wood and blued steel. I got the skinner ghost rings on this one now and while I’ve not put any 44 spc through it I as am slowly getting my reloading bench setup. Slowly.

44mag to 44spc eh? Very interesting. I know 44 mag is kinda frowned upon due to cost when not doing cast bullets. It’s really the only straight walled cartridge I’m familiar with. That was a smash and grab deal at Old Glory though and I had to have it.

 

[PappyM3]

I don’t know. The energy dump has been disproved many times. Energy doesn’t kill. CNS system hits kill and bleeding out kills.

Energy shouldn’t be factored in. There are calculators and formulas available to determine wound mass which is how things die other than CNS.

Permanent cavity is determined by tissue crush. The spleen and the brain and I believe the liver don’t like to stretch. The rest of the body does a good job at it.

So if energy was the main way to create this testing due to stretch then a 4 bore 1700+ grain bullet traveling at roughly 1000fps and tossing about 4200 ft/lb at a target would do the trick better than a 300 Winchester mag?

Also you mention temporary stretch cavity. Temporary is just that. When you see a gel block blow up and come back to rest in slow motion your body does the same. That’s why we use that medium.
It’s like watching a boxer hit someone in the stomach slow motion. That moves everything around just about as much as a pistol bullet hitting gel but it all goes right back in place. No permanent glove holes in the opponent.

You go back to energy to increase expansion/fragmentation but that’s dependent on the bullet design and speed.
You can up energy without either of those. A 4 bore stopping rifle with a copper solid with have neither fragmentation or expansion but it has all of the increased energy.

It’s a very nuanced topic and little changes or mix ups on terms can mean a whole lot.

I’m not saying you don’t have a point or that to your point none of us are stopping elephants but a lot of the same logic applies. We all carry for self defense and god forbid something happens I’m going to rely on a 38 special with 200 fl/lb and a 158 grain bullet more than a 5.7 with 320 ft/lb and a 28 grain bullet. Even though it has all the speed and 50% more energy the math doesn’t add up to performance.

Check out the IWBA links I posted. Very good information from the top in the field at the time they were written. (No that long ago but also lots of reference to the same type test being made around 1900 that showed us a lot of the same exact information)

This is in no way malicious or condescending.
I’m happy to banter back and forth about ballistics with someone on this forum. It’s usually all about cat threads and that creepy reptile dude that broccoli has the hots for.

It’s all good. Let me clarify my post.

I have read a number of those IWBA publications and also a lot of Doc Roberts work.

Yes, CNS shots and blood loss are how animals and people die from gunshots. Potentially oxygen loss too from deflated lungs too. I’m not debating that.

What I’m talking about is how terminal ballistics create wounding that increases blood loss.

If wound cavities were only created by crushing, then that wouldn’t explain rifle wounding. And not just rifle bullets over 2200 fps.

Yes, muscle tissue stretches a lot when living. But it isn’t infinitely elastic. There is a limit, and high energy bullets that successfully transfer their energy into the tissue will generally surpass that limit. Most pistol bullets do not have enough energy to overcome that tissue elasticity though. Which is why bringing up pistols for self defense isn’t as relevant. Almost all pistol bullets just poke holes. LeHigh bullets may be different but that requires a lot more research that doesn’t exist yet.

Bullet energy by itself is not going to create significant wounds. As I discussed even fast rifle bullets can ice pick straight through if they do not transfer their energy to the target. That is why I brought up expansion, which does slow the bullet and transfer the energy. Fragmentation, destabilization, and a large flat meplat all also contribute to energy transfer. Expansion is just one mechanism I brought up because of the specific Hornady FTX bullet example I used before. The energy transfer is the key. As I mentioned, the energy itself is merely wounding potential. You need to harness it to create the wounds.

Let’s talk about your 1700gr 1000fps example. How are you planning on transferring the energy of that bullet to the tissue? That is a lot of mass to slow down within 12-18”. But yes, if you get the bullet to dump all of its energy into the tissue, that would be a lot of tissue damage from stretch tearing.

 

[The5thDentist]

Good reason to own one:

Because .45-70 sounds like you are firing the USS Missouri's main guns at an indoor range.

I got a great deal on my dino gun a few years ago. I can't believe that it basically became an investment for me.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Nothing like wood and blued steel. I got the skinner ghost rings on this one now and while I’ve not put any 44 spc through it I as am slowly getting my reloading bench setup. Slowly.

44mag to 44spc eh? Very interesting. I know 44 mag is kinda frowned upon due to cost when not doing cast bullets. It’s really the only straight walled cartridge I’m familiar with. That was a smash and grab deal at Old Glory though and I had to have it.

I scored it cheap. It needed a new carrier and ejector so it was cheap cheap. A gunsmith never finished it before he died and a local guy bought it. He didn’t want to fiddle with it.
I think it was just a little toy for him. He did a nice job though. I’ll have to get some pics of it up here.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

It’s all good. Let me clarify my post.

I have read a number of those IWBA publications and also a lot of Doc Roberts work.

Yes, CNS shots and blood loss are how animals and people die from gunshots. Potentially oxygen loss too from deflated lungs too. I’m not debating that.

What I’m talking about is how terminal ballistics create wounding that increases blood loss.

If wound cavities were only created by crushing, then that wouldn’t explain rifle wounding. And not just rifle bullets over 2200 fps.

Yes, muscle tissue stretches a lot when living. But it isn’t infinitely elastic. There is a limit, and high energy bullets that successfully transfer their energy into the tissue will generally surpass that limit. Most pistol bullets do not have enough energy to overcome that tissue elasticity though. Which is why bringing up pistols for self defense isn’t as relevant. Almost all pistol bullets just poke holes. LeHigh bullets may be different but that requires a lot more research that doesn’t exist yet.

Bullet energy by itself is not going to create significant wounds. As I discussed even fast rifle bullets can ice pick straight through if they do not transfer their energy to the target. That is why I brought up expansion, which does slow the bullet and transfer the energy. Fragmentation, destabilization, and a large flat meplat all also contribute to energy transfer. Expansion is just one mechanism I brought up because of the specific Hornady FTX bullet example I used before. The energy transfer is the key. As I mentioned, the energy itself is merely wounding potential. You need to harness it to create the wounds.

Let’s talk about your 1700gr 1000fps example. How are you planning on transferring the energy of that bullet to the tissue? That is a lot of mass to slow down within 12-18”. But yes, if you get the bullet to dump all of its energy into the tissue, that would be a lot of tissue damage from stretch tearing.

Nice! Definitely more clear than the first post.
Yes you’re right high velocity bullets can cause stretch to the failure point of tissue.

Clarifying energy as potential wounding does make sense but there are still so many variables. Like you said a bullet can pencil it’s way through if it’s the wrong design.

Now about the 4 bore. I don’t really see the energy causing any tissue stretch there just crush. The stretch beyond the failure point is a result of velocity. No matter the size of the bullet the low velocity still won’t cause stretch damage. That’s the issue with handgun cartridges all being too slow.

Lehigh uses some fancy design to my guess is take advantage of the rotational force to stretch the tissue to failure.

Expansion is just a form factor change to a wider meplat. The formulas for wound mass take that into consideration.

Fragmentation is just smaller examples of bullet crush. Each time a fragment pops off you lose some penetration potential but gain a secondary wound channel. Again so many factors and so many designs and so many possible bone hits or sideways hits that make this more or less effective.

So we roughly agree on these things. One thing I can never let go of though is the energy transfer.

I’ll refer back to my 5.7 vs 38 special. Both with probably the most coming bullet for each cartridge. One is a well respected defense cartridge. The other one dumps a little over 50% more energy in the body but is known to create little more than superficial wounds.

We need to grab a beer. If we go to the place Broccoli hangs out for some reason I never have to pay for my beers.

 

[PappyM3]

Nice! Definitely more clear than the first post.
Yes you’re right high velocity bullets can cause stretch to the failure point of tissue.

Clarifying energy as potential wounding does make sense but there are still so many variables. Like you said a bullet can pencil it’s way through if it’s the wrong design.

Now about the 4 bore. I don’t really see the energy causing any tissue stretch there just crush. The stretch beyond the failure point is a result of velocity. No matter the size of the bullet the low velocity still won’t cause stretch damage. That’s the issue with handgun cartridges all being too slow.

Lehigh uses some fancy design to my guess is take advantage of the rotational force to stretch the tissue to failure.

Expansion is just a form factor change to a wider meplat. The formulas for wound mass take that into consideration.

Fragmentation is just smaller examples of bullet crush. Each time a fragment pops off you lose some penetration potential but gain a secondary wound channel. Again so many factors and so many designs and so many possible bone hits or sideways hits that make this more or less effective.

So we roughly agree on these things. One thing I can never let go of though is the energy transfer.

I’ll refer back to my 5.7 vs 38 special. Both with probably the most coming bullet for each cartridge. One is a well respected defense cartridge. The other one dumps a little over 50% more energy in the body but is known to create little more than superficial wounds.

We need to grab a beer. If we go to the place Broccoli hangs out for some reason I never have to pay for my beers.

Yeah, I think we largely agree. And we may not convince each other in the velocity vs energy transfer debate, but I think it’s good to flesh out the discussion. My big issue with the velocity theory is that there is disproving evidence.

My question to you is how does velocity cause the tissue stretch damage? Contradictory evidence: High velocity 5.56 FMJ that ice picks through. And “Low” velocity (1500fps), heavy mass .458 bullets with large meplats that do actually create stretch damage and not just crush damage.

Both of these instances support that transfer of energy is what causes the stretch damage rather than strictly velocity. Though, velocity has more effect on energy than mass. An ice picking 5.56 FMJ fails to transfer the energy. The lower velocity, but still high energy .458 does transfer the energy because of the large meplat.

Regarding 5.7 vs 38spl, both are pistol cartridges and as mentioned before, neither has enough energy to reach the elastic limit of most tissues. So you do only get crush damage from both and .38 is bigger. The 5.7 still has sub-400 ft/lbs.

The biggest question yet unanswered with the energy transfer theory is at what level do various tissues reach their elastic limit.

EDIT: Regarding the 1700gr 1000fps bullet, yes it probably wouldn’t cause anything more than crush damage. Not because of velocity, but because it wouldn’t be able to effectively transfer its energy to the tissue, unless you had massively expanding petals (which would increase crush anyway) like 300blk subs. Even with those big petals, I bet a bullet that heavy would still truck on through a person and take a lot of energy with it.

For the Lehigh defender bullets, the flutes do a great job at reliably stopping the bullets within the FBI specs while also being largely barrier blind. But the big question is if they truly do create a larger wound channel than just crush. It would depend on how much the flutes focus the fluids being redirected. I’ve begun researching pressure washer wounding mechanisms and how much PSI tissue can withstand, but it would take a pretty complex model to figure out how much PSI is coming off the flutes. Maybe I’ll have time someday to figure it out… probably not.

 

[Mark from MA]

2x 1oz. gold Buffaloes and we’ll call it a deal

Dude.....I have right of first refusal on that rifle.......LOL

I've been looking at .44 mag Henry's and every time I see KTP get one in, its gone in a day.....for like 850 bucks. That rifle you bought for 600 bucks looks like a steal now.

Retardo money for these levers lately. Im glad I snapped up a 45-70, .357 and .30-30 Marlin levers Before all this crap.

I suppose when Ruger and Henry get their shxt together things might go back to normal.

 

[Rockrivr1]

45-70 is one of those rounds I’ve always wanted to get a platform for but have never pulled the trigger on. I need a new caliber in the mix like I need a hole in the head. Though I’m sure I’ll own one one of these days. I don’t reload so I better be ready to pay dearly for ammo.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Yeah, I think we largely agree. And we may not convince each other in the velocity vs energy transfer debate, but I think it’s good to flesh out the discussion. My big issue with the velocity theory is that there is disproving evidence.

My question to you is how does velocity cause the tissue stretch damage? Contradictory evidence: High velocity 5.56 FMJ that ice picks through. And “Low” velocity (1500fps), heavy mass .458 bullets with large meplats that do actually create stretch damage and not just crush damage.

Both of these instances support that transfer of energy is what causes the stretch damage rather than strictly velocity. Though, velocity has more effect on energy than mass. An ice picking 5.56 FMJ fails to transfer the energy. The lower velocity, but still high energy .458 does transfer the energy because of the large meplat.

Regarding 5.7 vs 38spl, both are pistol cartridges and as mentioned before, neither has enough energy to reach the elastic limit of most tissues. So you do only get crush damage from both and .38 is bigger. The 5.7 still has sub-400 ft/lbs.

The biggest question yet unanswered with the energy transfer theory is at what level do various tissues reach their elastic limit.

EDIT: Regarding the 1700gr 1000fps bullet, yes it probably wouldn’t not cause anything more than crush damage. Not because of velocity, but because it wouldn’t be able to effectively transfer its energy to the tissue, unless you had massively expanding petals (which would increase crush anyway) like 300blk subs. Even with those big petals, I bet a bullet that heavy would still truck on through a person and take a lot of energy with it.

For the Lehigh defender bullets, the flutes do a great job at reliably stopping the bullets within the FBI specs while also being largely barrier blind. But the big question is if they truly do create a larger wound channel than just crush. It would depend on how much the flutes focus the fluids being redirected. I’ve begun researching pressure washer wounding mechanisms and how much PSI tissue can withstand, but it would take a pretty complex model to figure out how much PSI is coming off the flutes. Maybe I’ll have time someday to figure it out… probably not.

So the tough part is there are a ton of other variables. We both painted pictures to fit our points being made. It’s hard to make comparisons without being subjective.

Comparing the 223 vs a 45-70. Both can pencil through given the right bullet design. Both can explode violently and cause superficial wounds also.
Even see a soft point 55 grain in gel from about 5’ away? Same for a Hornady leverevolution bullet.

Long range hunting guys were loving the sirrra match king. It’s not a hunting bullet. The jacket is too hard and too thin. Those guys work with precision and also hit are made well over 1000 yards.
Now that bullet is a whole different animal. It’s more accurate than most of the hunting bullets (10 years ago) but at reduced impact velocity offers decent terminal ballistics.

I guess I need to dig back and look into the thresholds for stretch and when does a bullet cross over into those thresholds vs being considered crush due to expansion and larger frontal surface.
See if we can draw some lines and maybe some innocent bystanders will learn something from us

 

[RIFLEMAN1000]

They need to make it in 45-120 but they will need to lengthen the action. 45-120 the ultimate chipmunk gun .

 

[cathouse01]

Ruger News

www.ruger.com

 

[Mark from MA]

45-70 is one of those rounds I’ve always wanted to get a platform for but have never pulled the trigger on. I need a new caliber in the mix like I need a hole in the head. Though I’m sure I’ll own one one of these days. I don’t reload so I better be ready to pay dearly for ammo.

When you shoot your first rounds full boat rounds you'll say....why the hell did I buy this? If you don't reload and don't need the power there is no reason to buy it. However, When you reload low power rounds, you'll say....this is fun as shxt. But....the power is there if you need it.....that's why i bought mine. Plus as bad as people say Remlins are....there is some really nice curly Walnut on my 45-70, and its made very well with good quality and wood to metal fitment. At the $450 new I paid for it. I do not regret it one bit.

I do think the same Ruger Made Marlin will be double the price and unobtainium for years to come. Same with my .30-30 and .357 carbine.

 

[NHCraigT]

Marlin is Back: Ruger is Shipping Marlin 1895 SBL Lever-Action Rifles - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ It’s been a long, hard rode for Marlin rifle lovers. After the brand was acquired by the Cerberus bean counters who cobbled together the monstrosity that was once known as the Freedom Group and combined the brand with Remington, the new owners had some, uh...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

... Ruger-made, Marlin 1895 SBL rifles are marked with “Mayodan, NC,” bear an “RM” or Ruger-Made serial number prefix, have the Marlin Horse and Rider logo laser engraved on their grip, and also feature a red and white “bullseye” on the buttstock....

 

[Broc]

They need to make it in 45-120 but they will need to lengthen the action. 45-120 the ultimate chipmunk gun .

I would love one in 45-120.
But would prefer one in 50-140.

I really want a Winchester in 45-90.

 

[Coyote33]

I know, it's a FacePlant article, but seems this popular rifle will be coming back into production

I never knew it went OUT of production. Wasn't this one of their mainstays?

Wake me up when they start shipping the .444 Marlins, with Ballard rifling and a faster twist.

Nice.

Get a BFR in 30-30 instead. There are a bunch of those on Gun Broker.

BFR? Is that a model, or just what it sounds like it means?

I've wanted a Marlin 45-70 ever since I saw Jeremy Renner start dropping the private security in Wind River. Highly underrated movie.

This is how I found this thread. Just saw the movie last night. Pretty good movie. But, the guy is a predator hunter, kinda sniper-style (scope, winter camo) in Wyoming, using a 45-70 across mountain ranges? Wouldn't he use a .243 or .308 or 30-06 or .300 Mag, or something with better long range accuracy? I mean, 45-70 is cool, and would do the job within its range, but for the job he's doing, I'd think there are better choices.

Should have gone for 50-70.

Isn't there a 45-90?

 

[Coyote33]

But for 30/30 or 45-70 lever guns, I’m just scratching my head except for nostalgia or collecting.

My father had a 30-06 742 from when I was born until late in his life, and it brought him many deer. In maybe his 60's or so, he picked up a Winchester 30-30. He said he wished he had gotten it 30 years earlier. He said that gun carries and points so nice, it was a pure pleasure to hunt with.

So 45-70 is probably still the champ for that straight wall requirement big bore lever gun.

Someone mentioned .444. Also .44 Mag or even .357 Mag would be fine for New England woods hunting. So, I guess that depends what you mean by "requirement".

 

[Broc]

BFR? Is that a model, or just what it sounds like it means?

Isn't there a 45-90?

First - it means whatever you want it to mean.
Second - Yes. Winchester.

 

[Broc]

This is how I found this thread. Just saw the movie last night. Pretty good movie. But, the guy is a predator hunter, kinda sniper-style (scope, winter camo) in Wyoming, using a 45-70 across mountain ranges? Wouldn't he use a .243 or .308 or 30-06 or .300 Mag, or something with better long range accuracy? I mean, 45-70 is cool, and would do the job within its range, but for the job he's doing, I'd think there are better choices.

I agree. Past 300 yards the 45-70 is more like a mortar round with a rainbow trajectory.

There are much better calibers to shoot at long ranges. For hunting, the 45-70 is very capable well past 300, but those heavy bullets with sh*tty BC are affected by the wind a lot. Combine the rainbow trajectory with heavy wind and you have yourself a nice challenge. Unless you want to deal with that when you might have a few seconds to make one shot count, you are better off using a caliber with a flatter trajectory.

 

[Broc]

I agree. Past 300 yards the 45-70 is more like a mortar round with a rainbow trajectory.

There are much better calibers to shoot at long ranges. For hunting, the 45-70 is very capable well past 300, but those heavy bullets with sh*tty BC are affected by the wind a lot. Combine the rainbow trajectory with heavy wind and you have yourself a nice challenge. Unless you want to deal with that when you might have a few seconds to make one shot count, you are better off using a caliber with a flatter trajectory.

Adding to this, the 45-70 shoots much better with black powder than with smokeless. The Sharps are still the most accurate 45-70 rifles when loaded with BP.

But, that much BP in a lever gun or modern bolt action would make a huge mess.

 

[PappyM3]

My father had a 30-06 742 from when I was born until late in his life, and it brought him many deer. In maybe his 60's or so, he picked up a Winchester 30-30. He said he wished he had gotten it 30 years earlier. He said that gun carries and points so nice, it was a pure pleasure to hunt with.


Someone mentioned .444. Also .44 Mag or even .357 Mag would be fine for New England woods hunting. So, I guess that depends what you mean by "requirement".

Yeah, but a 6.5/308/8.6/375 BLR would point well too. I’m not against lever guns. And I really get the appeal of 357 or 44 lever guns so you can share ammo with a pistol.

The requirement I’m talking about is for states/counties that require straight walled cartridges. And if one wants a big bore, but has that straight walled requirement, 45-70 is probably king.

 

[KBCraig]

Nephew had an 1895 (Guide Gun? Stainless with laminate furniture, 16 or 18" barrel) in .450 Marlin.

I asked him about the recoil. He said, "Yeah, it has a little kick." (He was 18, 6'3" and 250 pounds at the time.)

 

[Coyote33]

if one wants a big bore, but has that straight walled requirement, 45-70 is probably king

The .444 is right in there as well.

 

[northny]

I have an older JM Marlin in 45-70 and The more I have hunted deer the more I like my 45 70. When I am going to sit at distances under 200 yards I take it. I only only load one shell because I’ve never needed two,(and because it’s a pain to unload-at end of hunt) I hand load same 250 grain Hornady bullet as in my muzzle loader to approximately the same speed. Most of a dozen kills with either one were 125 to 150 yards and two steps is the farthest any of them went, which is why I like it.

My best friend and hunting partners go to gun is the Marlin lever in 450 Marlin, (which is a belted magnum case 45-70. ). He used a 7mm Mag for the dozen years he was in Kansas and Colorado, but now back in eastern woods it’s the 450 Marlin. Same reason I have. BF DRT. Bang flop, dead right there. We both enjoy tracking other peoples deer but not ours.

If I was a younger man I would build a heavy barrel magazine fed bolt gun in 45-70. I still might build a 45 AR upper to try.

I will admit I hand load a very mild load for shooting at range and I am glad my Marlin came with a good recoil pad on it.

 

[Mark from MA]

Nephew had an 1895 (Guide Gun? Stainless with laminate furniture, 16 or 18" barrel) in .450 Marlin.

I asked him about the recoil. He said, "Yeah, it has a little kick." (He was 18, 6'3" and 250 pounds at the time.)

I have a JM made Guide Gun in 450Marlin with Walnut and blue, 18 inch ported barrel. Weighs less than 7 pounds.

A little is an kinda understating it.......lets just say I put less than 20 rounds thru it, and not all at one range sitting. It kills on one end and wounds on the other.

I'd much rather shoot the 22" 45-70 Marlin than the 450 Guide Gun.

 

[KBCraig]

I have a JM made Guide Gun in 450Marlin with Walnut and blue, 18 inch ported barrel. Weighs less than 7 pounds.

A little is an kinda understating it.......lets just say I put less than 20 rounds thru it, and not all at one range sitting. It kills on one end and wounds on the other.

He was using it to plink pond turtles from his mom's deck, at 50-75 yards.

 

[AHM]

He was using it to plink pond turtles from his mom's deck, at 50-75 yards.

In between swatting at the mosquitoes that seem to have gotten even worse
since he started plinking pond turtles.

 

[Spanz]

My father had a 30-06 742 from when I was born until late in his life, and it brought him many deer. In maybe his 60's or so, he picked up a Winchester 30-30. He said he wished he had gotten it 30 years earlier. He said that gun carries and points so nice, it was a pure pleasure to hunt with.


Someone mentioned .444. Also .44 Mag or even .357 Mag would be fine for New England woods hunting. So, I guess that depends what you mean by "requirement".

it would. also .454.

it is kind of fun to hunt both pistol and rifle....pistol for short shots, rifle for longer ones.
even in MA there is a pistol bear season you can hunt with both.