Marlin to Re-Release the 1895 in 45-70 by end of year.

[1903Collector]

I asked a known gunsmith that works on CAS guns. He says he hasn't received a shipment in 1.5 years of any Vaquero model.

How f*cking tiny is Ruger?

Gun broker prices are beyond stupid.

I remember not that long ago you could pick a used mint Ruger Black hawk for between $450-$500 ish. Been looking for one in 45 Colt and all the ones I have seen are close to a grand. I can get a brand new S&W 25 for just under a grand, just stuck with that 6" barrel.

The lever action market today seems to center around pistol caliber carbines, you see it in the classifieds, .357s and .44s go quick.

 

[Bigfudge16]

was looking for one of these a couple months ago but the prices were insane. hopefully this brings it down a bit, i think it'd make a fun deer gun

 

[DW357]

Jesus christ. The Marlin 1894 CSBL 357 magnum rifles are $2500+ on GB.
I paid $960 for mine in February 2020 - talk about insane timing.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918673237

The ad says discontinued but not sure that's accurate. I'm sure Ruger will start producing them again at some point?

 

[StevieP]

Jesus christ. The Marlin 1894 CSBL 357 magnum rifles are $2500+ on GB.
I paid $960 for mine in February 2020 - talk about insane timing.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918673237

The ad says discontinued but not sure that's accurate. I'm sure Ruger will start producing them again at some point?

Well half of that price is the included 100 rounds of premium .357 ammo, so...

 

[drgrant]

Does it really matter?

From a big picture point of view, .45-70 lever guns are a tiny portion of the gun market. Three kinds of people buy new production .45-70 lever guns: middle aged guys fawning with nostalgia, people who want a silencer-friendly slow and big cartridge, and that one guy trying to shoot a moose or something equally big at close range.

The factory ammo is stupid expensive and has pretty bad ballistics by modern standards. The guns aren't as practical to live with as bolt actions or semi-autos in terms of disassembly and how the guns operate. These are meme guns that people buy just because.

The one product Marlin made in the last twenty years that gave some people boners was the .45-70 stainless gun with the large loop. Makes sense that Ruger-Marlin is trying to pump those out. Whose going to buy .30-30s in 2021 in volume enough to jump start a gun company from bankruptcy? No one besides Canadians and the Canadian gun market is a lot smaller than the US.

How many domestic companies even make lever guns? Henry, Mossberg, and Marlin. That's it. Pretty small market.

I have zero interest in these, I just find it odd how people complain about the death of American manufacturing (typically Boomers doing this), and then those same people shit all over gun companies that bring out products. Its just another pointless consumer gun except for a super narrow niche. Market competition is a good thing.

Lol it's so tiny that Henry can't even keep up with demand right now.

Not sure what your point is. You might not want one, and I'll likely never buy one either, but the market is MUCH bigger than you think it is, believe it or
not. No it's not an AR15, Glock, Sig P365, volume wise, but frankly nothing is. Just because the product is dumb and pointless (in relative terms, before anyone starts crying too loud) doesn't mean there isn't a perceptible demand for it. Look at Magnum Research- the DE is the most popular gun they make and the biggest clown show gun on the planet. The bottom 40% of the market, easily, is cluttered with dumb guns like this that sell. Not every gun has to be purpose driven or be the most elegant solution. Companies like Ruger, and Heritage, Uberti, etc, wouldn't make crap like single action revolvers if there was no demand.

 

[PappyM3]

I don’t know. I just have a hard time getting excited about 45-70. It has some energy up close, but the bullet drops like a rock very quickly. I know, I shouldn’t expect long range from a lever gun. But it’s hard to ignore Browning’s offerings with the BLR.

I just wish Browning offered extra barrels for their BLR takedown. Still thinking of getting one in 6.5CM or 308 and then buying a custom spare barrel in 375 Raptor. The 375 Raptor from a 12” barrel will give you similar energy to 45-70 up close, but then just walks away handily, and keeps waking. And with a 16” barrel, I think it might edge out the 45-70 in energy up close too. Only thing holding me back is Q’s 8.6 round which I imagine will get a whole hell of a lot more industry support.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

Lol it's so tiny that Henry can't even keep up with demand right now.

Not sure what your point is. You might not want one, and I'll likely never buy one either, but the market is MUCH bigger than you think it is, believe it or
not. No it's not an AR15, Glock, Sig P365, volume wise, but frankly nothing is. Just because the product is dumb and pointless (in relative terms, before anyone starts crying too loud) doesn't mean there isn't a perceptible demand for it. Look at Magnum Research- the DE is the most popular gun they make and the biggest clown show gun on the planet. The bottom 40% of the market, easily, is cluttered with dumb guns like this that sell. Not every gun has to be purpose driven or be the most elegant solution. Companies like Ruger, and Heritage, Uberti, etc, wouldn't make crap like single action revolvers if there was no demand.

The fact that Henry can't keep up with demand means what exactly? That one company can't satiate a whole niche market? So what? Why would they want to fully satisfy demand when doing so would depress the market? This is a retail market where a little bit of unsatisfied demand is good.

That's like saying "Arsenal should make all the AKs needed to fully satisfy the US consumer AK market." Yeah. No. That's bad business because once everyone has their Arsenal, whose going to keep buying more of them in three, six, nine, twelve months? Retail and distributors needing more guns creates cash flow.

My point is this: who cares if Marlin makes an inferior product to Henry. The two can co-exist in their market sectors. These being inherently range/"I want it because I want it"/nostalgia purchases, objectifying which one is better is moot. These guns are rarely if ever going to be pushed to their limit.

 

[drgrant]

The fact that Henry can't keep up with demand means what exactly? That one company can't satiate a whole niche market? So what? Why would they want to fully satisfy demand when doing so would depress the market? This is a retail market where a little bit of unsatisfied demand is good.

We're not at a "little bit" in case you haven't been paying attention. Normally the deal with these types of guns is the channel gets stuffed and the manufacturer can lay off producing guns for awhile etc. If people are auctioning shit off on GB for twice what it costs that isn't "a little bit of unsatisfied demand"

It's probably tempory regardless, but still.

That's like saying "Arsenal should make all the AKs needed to fully satisfy the US consumer AK market." Yeah. No. That's bad business because once everyone has their Arsenal, whose going to keep buying more of them in three, six, nine, twelve months? Retail and distributors needing more guns creates cash flow.

Lol never disputed any of that.

My point is this: who cares if Marlin makes an inferior product to Henry. The two can co-exist in their market sectors. These being inherently range/"I want it because I want it"/nostalgia purchases, objectifying which one is better is moot. These guns are rarely if ever going to be pushed to their limit.

I never said anything was wrong with Marlin making thier products. My point was that they need to make more than like a sprinkle of two guns f they actually want to be taken seriously.

ETA: you seem to be getting wound up over an offhand comment I made about Marlin sucking and being behind the curve. You must be a hit at parties.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I don’t know. I just have a hard time getting excited about 45-70. It has some energy up close, but the bullet drops like a rock very quickly. I know, I shouldn’t expect long range from a lever gun. But it’s hard to ignore Browning’s offerings with the BLR.

I just wish Browning offered extra barrels for their BLR takedown. Still thinking of getting one in 6.5CM or 308 and then buying a custom spare barrel in 375 Raptor. The 375 Raptor from a 12” barrel will give you similar energy to 45-70 up close, but then just walks away handily, and keeps waking. And with a 16” barrel, I think it might edge out the 45-70 in energy up close too. Only thing holding me back is Q’s 8.6 round which I imagine will get a whole hell of a lot more industry support.

Rainbow trajectory is true but you can’t argue with velocity diminishes mass does not.

If you have your dope you can do some serious work with a 45-70.

 

[AHM]

was looking for one of these a couple months ago but the prices were insane. hopefully this brings it down a bit, i think it'd make a fun deer gun

(Upvote purely for your avatar).

 

[PappyM3]

Rainbow trajectory is true but you can’t argue with velocity diminishes mass does not.

If you have your dope you can do some serious work with a 45-70.

Yeah, but even with a high (for caliber) BC bullet, they get transonic by 300 yards. And the FTX bullets at least don’t expand subsonic. I’d honestly be surprised if they expanded much past the muzzle.

I get 357/44mag lever guns, for commonality with a handgun and the 357 can plink with 38spl rounds.

But for 30/30 or 45-70 lever guns, I’m just scratching my head except for nostalgia or collecting. I’m using 375 raptor as an example, but just look at the energy levels at different ranges below. Modern cartridges are just a good bit better than the old rimmed ones.

And if you want to use hard cast bullets for that 0-100 yard range against large and/or dangerous game, you can get hard cast bullets for use with modern cartridges too.

I’ll concede than cartridge availability in random towns you might be traveling to is an advantage for 45-70. But you can also just get lever gun in 300 win mag if you want an available “modern” cartridge.

 

[Bigfudge16]

(Upvote purely for your avatar).

Ill take that, thank you

 

[Broc]

Jesus christ. The Marlin 1894 CSBL 357 magnum rifles are $2500+ on GB.
I paid $960 for mine in February 2020 - talk about insane timing.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/918673237

The ad says discontinued but not sure that's accurate. I'm sure Ruger will start producing them again at some point?

That $2500 rifle is a POS Remington. Not worth it.

An Uberti .357 is 10x the rifle the Remington will ever be, the quality, wood, craftsmanship is so much better than the Remington junk. You can eventually short stroke the Uberti.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Yeah, but even with a high (for caliber) BC bullet, they get transonic by 300 yards. And the FTX bullets at least don’t expand subsonic. I’d honestly be surprised if they expanded much past the muzzle.

I get 357/44mag lever guns, for commonality with a handgun and the 357 can plink with 38spl rounds.

But for 30/30 or 45-70 lever guns, I’m just scratching my head except for nostalgia or collecting. I’m using 375 raptor as an example, but just look at the energy levels at different ranges below. Modern cartridges are just a good bit better than the old rimmed ones.

And if you want to use hard cast bullets for that 0-100 yard range against large and/or dangerous game, you can get hard cast bullets for use with modern cartridges too.

I’ll concede than cartridge availability in random towns you might be traveling to is an advantage for 45-70. But you can also just get lever gun in 300 win mag if you want an available “modern” cartridge.

View attachment 554746
View attachment 554747

Some states have hunting regs around straight walled cartridges that are keeping some of the older offerings afloat. I think it's going to be a bit until any of the modern ones really get enough foothold to supplant them

 

[timbo]

i would not mind a .35 marlin in Stainless. kind of for nostalgia reasons. Stainless so i do not need to care for it that much.

i think my first deer hunt was a .35 marlin

I used to have a Marlin .35...I bought it about two months before my 30-30...I ended up buying the 30-30 because ammo was easier to find. I regret selling the .35. It was a great gun with a nice punch.

 

[PappyM3]

Some states have hunting regs around straight walled cartridges that are keeping some of the older offerings afloat. I think it's going to be a bit until any of the modern ones really get enough foothold to supplant them

That’s a good point.

The 450 Bushmaster can get slightly better velocities for similar weights compared to 45-70, and buffalo bore even offers a 360gr hard cast for 450 bushmaster. That said, Browning is their typical fudd selves and doesn’t offer a 450 bushmaster BLR.

So 45-70 is probably still the champ for that straight wall requirement big bore lever gun.

 

[Broc]

That’s a good point.

The 450 Bushmaster can get slightly better velocities for similar weights compared to 45-70, and buffalo bore even offers a 360gr hard cast for 450 bushmaster. That said, Browning is their typical fudd selves and doesn’t offer a 450 bushmaster BLR.

So 45-70 is probably still the champ for that straight wall requirement big bore lever gun.

You could do 450 Marlin.

Anyway, there really isn't a need for anything faster than 45-70 unless you are hunting somewhere that allows 200+ yard shots, and that's only because of the rainbow trajectory the 45-70 does at longer ranges, because as far as energy it is probably good past 300 yards.

The 45-70 will kill anything, even using a moderate load at 1400 fps. With certain loads you can get it to 1700fps or faster.

I have some nice 600 grain solid brass bullets a NES member gave me, you can probably take on any African animal with those ... and dislocate your shoulder in the process. Maybe. Lol.

Comparison ...

9mm
.223
45-70 405g
45-70 405g
45-70 solid 600 grain
.50 cal.

 

[drgrant]

I have some nice 600 grain solid brass bullets a NES member gave me, you can probably take on any African animal with those ... and dislocated your shoulder in the process. Maybe. Lol.

Shoulder or retina first?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Shoulder or retina first?

if you don't blink, it might be the whole eye

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Yeah, but even with a high (for caliber) BC bullet, they get transonic by 300 yards. And the FTX bullets at least don’t expand subsonic. I’d honestly be surprised if they expanded much past the muzzle.

I get 357/44mag lever guns, for commonality with a handgun and the 357 can plink with 38spl rounds.

But for 30/30 or 45-70 lever guns, I’m just scratching my head except for nostalgia or collecting. I’m using 375 raptor as an example, but just look at the energy levels at different ranges below. Modern cartridges are just a good bit better than the old rimmed ones.

And if you want to use hard cast bullets for that 0-100 yard range against large and/or dangerous game, you can get hard cast bullets for use with modern cartridges too.

I’ll concede than cartridge availability in random towns you might be traveling to is an advantage for 45-70. But you can also just get lever gun in 300 win mag if you want an available “modern” cartridge.

View attachment 554746
View attachment 554747

There are always better options but do some reading on “expansion” and “energy”

They’re not the best measures of a cartridges performance.

Mass doesn’t diminish. Momentum baby. Check out garret cartridge and see their performance tests. Penetration and wound mass are where it’s at.

I’ll argue that the only downsides of 45-70 are the trajectory and the recoil depending on loads.

If you have to hunt antelope at 400 yards it might not be the best choice for thin skinned game that won’t let you get close. A 6.5 Grendel will do it.

I know I could make that shot with a 45-70 no problem though.

 

[Mark from MA]

That’s a good point.

The 450 Bushmaster can get slightly better velocities for similar weights compared to 45-70, and buffalo bore even offers a 360gr hard cast for 450 bushmaster. That said, Browning is their typical fudd selves and doesn’t offer a 450 bushmaster BLR.

So 45-70 is probably still the champ for that straight wall requirement big bore lever gun.

Id argue that 350 Legend is being used a lot in these straight wall cartridge states. Like alot more than 44 mag and 45-70. There are at least 3 flavors of bolt guns in it, a henry single shot, and
probably others.

Sure there are people that want 45-70 but in lever's they are expensive and tough to find. Although I think I saw one or two on the shelves at KTP the other day, at not bad prices. Nothing near 2K and one of them was a case hardened gun. One of them was a single shot....f***ing ouch. But it had beautiful wood on it.

 

[Mark from MA]

I used to have a Marlin .35...I bought it about two months before my 30-30...I ended up buying the 30-30 because ammo was easier to find. I regret selling the .35. It was a great gun with a nice punch.

I have an old 70's Marlin 35. Love it, great deer gun.

 

[SgtHal75]

Some of u guys have some real serious Trex problems in your yard

 

[Spanz]

I used to have a Marlin .35...I bought it about two months before my 30-30...I ended up buying the 30-30 because ammo was easier to find. I regret selling the .35. It was a great gun with a nice punch.

good for deer, good for bear
my marlin was my dads, then my older brothers, then i inherited it. then took it back out to Colorado to give back to my brother a few months before he passed. then it went on to my nephew, my brother's son.

it is just a sweet little gun.
i would have hunted a lot more with it, but it did not have a safety, other than that weird half cock thing, so i did not feel really great about trapsing up and down mountains with it.

of course, the new ones come with a full safety mechanism

 

[Broc]

Some of u guys have some real serious Trex problems in your yard

We are just prepared.

What will you do when a mob, riding war elephants shows up to your house to fire bomb it?

It could happen. Are you prepared for it?

 

[SgtHal75]

We are just prepared.

What will you do when a mob, riding war elephants shows up to your house to fire bomb it?

It could happen. Are you prepared for it?

Go barefoot at the Vietnam low ready…

 

[PappyM3]

There are always better options but do some reading on “expansion” and “energy”

They’re not the best measures of a cartridges performance.

Mass doesn’t diminish. Momentum baby. Check out garret cartridge and see their performance tests. Penetration and wound mass are where it’s at.

I’ll argue that the only downsides of 45-70 are the trajectory and the recoil depending on loads.

If you have to hunt antelope at 400 yards it might not be the best choice for thin skinned game that won’t let you get close. A 6.5 Grendel will do it.

I know I could make that shot with a 45-70 no problem though.

I’m not an MD nor a ballistician, but I’ve done my fair share of reading on terminal ballistics and wound profiles.

Expansion(or fragmentation) and energy aren’t the only measures of performance of a bullet, but they are the best for predicting how much larger a permanent wound cavity will be, beyond simply the diameter of the bullet.

Energy gives you wounding potential (whether that energy is primarily derived from velocity, mass, or both). Expansion and fragmentation can damage tissue with lacerations, but primarily they are used to dump the energy into the target and create enough tissue stretch that it tears. The reason why pistol bullets and slow rifle bullets don’t create enough of a temporary stretch to effectively tear tissue is because they don’t have enough energy to impart into the tissue.

People claim that pistol bullets don’t achieve large enough temporary stretch cavities because of their velocity. That’s kind of true, but not totally accurate. It’s because of their low energy, which is a result of the low velocity. And this is why really massive, but somewhat slow (1,500 fps) rifle bullets can still cause permanent wound cavities that are larger than the diameter of the bullet.

The more energy you have, the more you can increase expansion/fragmentation to achieve the maximum amount of energy transfer into the tissue while still meeting the penetration requirements. Without some form of destabilization/expansion/fragmentation/large meplat in the tissue to transfer the energy, even really fast bullets could just ice pick through.

Now, regarding penetration, yes mass is key to penetration. As is bullet hardness and construction, target hardness and density. You mention momentum, but momentum requires both mass and velocity. And momentum goes down as the velocity drops due to terrible ballistic coefficients.

Yes, 45-70 with heavy hard cast bullets could be used on large African game, but who among us is doing that? And yes, it’s good for smashing through a grizzly skull, but any of the modern cartridges I mentioned can do that too.

 

[DJBrad]

Pic of the day I brought home the ‘92 for $600 from Old Glory. I was surprised by the condition. I shouldn’t have been since who shoots these guns daily if at all? Still love it.

 

[AHM]

What will you do when a mob, riding war elephants shows up to your house to fire bomb it?

It could happen. Are you prepared for it?

Shoot the molotov cocktail in the guy's hand
after he lights it but before he hurls it.

While hilarity is ensuing,
step inside to dig out the marshmallows and shish-kabob sticks.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I’m not an MD nor a ballistician, but I’ve done my fair share of reading on terminal ballistics and wound profiles.

Expansion(or fragmentation) and energy aren’t the only measures of performance of a bullet, but they are the best for predicting how much larger a permanent wound cavity will be, beyond simply the diameter of the bullet.

Energy gives you wounding potential (whether that energy is primarily derived from velocity, mass, or both). Expansion and fragmentation can damage tissue with lacerations, but primarily they are used to dump the energy into the target and create enough tissue stretch that it tears. The reason why pistol bullets and slow rifle bullets don’t create enough of a temporary stretch to effectively tear tissue is because they don’t have enough energy to impart into the tissue.

People claim that pistol bullets don’t achieve large enough temporary stretch cavities because of their velocity. That’s kind of true, but not totally accurate. It’s because of their low energy, which is a result of the low velocity. And this is why really massive, but somewhat slow (1,500 fps) rifle bullets can still cause permanent wound cavities that are larger than the diameter of the bullet.

The more energy you have, the more you can increase expansion/fragmentation to achieve the maximum amount of energy transfer into the tissue while still meeting the penetration requirements. Without some form of destabilization/expansion/fragmentation/large meplat in the tissue to transfer the energy, even really fast bullets could just ice pick through.

Now, regarding penetration, yes mass is key to penetration. As is bullet hardness and construction, target hardness and density. You mention momentum, but momentum requires both mass and velocity. And momentum goes down as the velocity drops due to terrible ballistic coefficients.

Yes, 45-70 with heavy hard cast bullets could be used on large African game, but who among us is doing that? And yes, it’s good for smashing through a grizzly skull, but any of the modern cartridges I mentioned can do that too.

I don’t know. The energy dump has been disproved many times. Energy doesn’t kill. CNS system hits kill and bleeding out kills.

Energy shouldn’t be factored in. There are calculators and formulas available to determine wound mass which is how things die other than CNS.

Permanent cavity is determined by tissue crush. The spleen and the brain and I believe the liver don’t like to stretch. The rest of the body does a good job at it.

So if energy was the main way to create this testing due to stretch then a 4 bore 1700+ grain bullet traveling at roughly 1000fps and tossing about 4200 ft/lb at a target would do the trick better than a 300 Winchester mag?

Also you mention temporary stretch cavity. Temporary is just that. When you see a gel block blow up and come back to rest in slow motion your body does the same. That’s why we use that medium.
It’s like watching a boxer hit someone in the stomach slow motion. That moves everything around just about as much as a pistol bullet hitting gel but it all goes right back in place. No permanent glove holes in the opponent.

You go back to energy to increase expansion/fragmentation but that’s dependent on the bullet design and speed.
You can up energy without either of those. A 4 bore stopping rifle with a copper solid with have neither fragmentation or expansion but it has all of the increased energy.

It’s a very nuanced topic and little changes or mix ups on terms can mean a whole lot.

I’m not saying you don’t have a point or that to your point none of us are stopping elephants but a lot of the same logic applies. We all carry for self defense and god forbid something happens I’m going to rely on a 38 special with 200 fl/lb and a 158 grain bullet more than a 5.7 with 320 ft/lb and a 28 grain bullet. Even though it has all the speed and 50% more energy the math doesn’t add up to performance.

Check out the IWBA links I posted. Very good information from the top in the field at the time they were written. (No that long ago but also lots of reference to the same type test being made around 1900 that showed us a lot of the same exact information)

This is in no way malicious or condescending.
I’m happy to banter back and forth about ballistics with someone on this forum. It’s usually all about cat threads and that creepy reptile dude that broccoli has the hots for.