Mansfield (MA) F&G Protective Assn

[Len-2A Training]

With all the weight he has lost his picture will actually fit on the milk carton.

That's a relief! We won't have to use two sides to get his picture on the milk carton any more. That'll save the club some big bucks!

 

[Knob Creek]

I was at a CAS match today and a couple of people said they heard Mansfield was going to have a Cowboy match. Who's running it and when. And do they need any help?

 

[depicts]

LenS, What time on Sunday will they be signing up for renewals? I missed it today traveling back from New Hampshire.


KNOB CREEK, Mansfield has been looking for help with the CAS shoots for a long time. There hasn't been many people come forward. You'd be very welcome.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I was at a CAS match today and a couple of people said they heard Mansfield was going to have a Cowboy match. Who's running it and when. And do they need any help?

Yes they are. Please check the website for info www.mansfieldfish.com

I'm not into CAS, so I don't know any of the details. I do know that they are looking for help to make it a regular event again.

LenS, What time on Sunday will they be signing up for renewals? I missed it today traveling back from New Hampshire.

I sent you an Email response to the PM. 10-4 on Sunday.

 

[DCunniff]

New member lining up a cowboy shoot in September. If interested, contact him. He is organizing for members only but I don't know how many responses he has.

Here is information.

[email protected]

Saturday, September 27.

Dana

 

[Knob Creek]

Yes I heard it was members only. Since the club had so much trouble finding club members to take this over I don't know how many club members will shoot this. I'm not a club member but I'll check my schedule and e-mail Lesky. I know there are a couple Manville members that might help out.

 

[C-pher]

I told him that I would have been interested in shooting this.

Never heard back....and now heard that it's not going to happen.

 

[DCunniff]

He'll have more to say. He was concerned about how many would sign up and how many would help. He hasn't run one there before so he is leaning toward postponing it.

Dana

 

[Knob Creek]

You wanted help? We offered help!
Well, I've sent him emails with no response. The CAS team at Manville have sent emails offering to help with no response. So I guess they are not serious about it. Mansfield used to draw sixty to seventy shooters and with some advance notice and planning there is no reason it could not do so again.
Even on this short notice he could have pulled 20 to 30 shooters outside club members, maybe more
I've had at least a dozen people ask me in the last week if its going to happen.

He needs to first attend a CAS match or have another club come in and help him run one to see how its done.

Next get the Mansfield club behind him with no bitching and moaning about how the range is tied up all day on Saturday like some did with Allan.

Next get a core group of CAS that are not necessarily members of Manville to agree to help. Typically in other clubs this group pays a annual "membership fee of say $30. And agrees to help set up and take down and put on the matches and gets reduced entry fees.

Last, get together with the other CAS clubs when they meet over the winter to arrange a schedule.

 

[jkelly]

Next get the Mansfield club behind him with no bitching and moaning about how the range is tied up all day on Saturday like some did with Allan.---KnobCreek

The Mansfield club was very supportive of Allan and CAS, giving them the range dates they wanted for shoots, giving them access to both the ranges and the club house as well as fronting them the monies to buy steel and other shooting apparatus.

What the club membership wouldn’t do is set up and take down the event for them.

I think it’s important that CAS realize that the Mansfield club is doing CAS a favor by allowing CAS to shoot at the club. CAS needs to understand that it is a burden to the club membership. CAS might try being humble when it deals with the club/club members, set up and take down quickly to minimize the burden CAS creates and quit whining about people noting the imposition that CAS shooting causes the club membership.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Knob Creek]

The Mansfield club was very supportive of Allan and CAS, giving them the range dates they wanted for shoots, giving them access to both the ranges and the club house as well as fronting them the monies to buy steel and other shooting apparatus.

What the club membership wouldn’t do is set up and take down the event for them.

I think it’s important that CAS realize that the Mansfield club is doing CAS a favor by allowing CAS to shoot at the club. CAS needs to understand that it is a burden to the club membership. CAS might try being humble when it deals with the club/club members, set up and take down quickly to minimize the burden CAS creates and quit whining about people noting the imposition that CAS shooting causes the club membership.

Respectfully,
jkelly

Burden? Imposition? This explains a lot! I would not want to place a burden on your club or impose on you. I will continue to shoot and work with the 25 or so other clubs in New England that are happy to work with the CAS, IDPA, USPSA and treat it as a partnership where everyone gets something out of it instead of being burdened by them.

 

[C-pher]

....

 

[jkelly]

Burden? Imposition? This explains a lot! I would not want to place a burden on your club or impose on you.---KnobCreek

Yes, it explains exactly what the problem with CAS is.

Of course it’s a burden and an imposition to the club and its membership, what did you think the lost of 23 hours (the last time I checked) of range time over two days was? Not knowing that it’s a burden and an imposition and understanding its affect on the non CAS shooting Mansfield membership is the root of the problem!

CAS needs to understand there is little realized benefit by the general membership at Mansfield, as only a very, very few members shoot CAS. All the active shooting members see is that two ranges are shut down for parts of two days.

I’m for ALL shooting sports that club members want to run at the club, including CAS. And while I’m not a CAS shooter, in the past I have helped CAS set up for shoots at the club.

As for IDPA and USPSA, I’m a member of both and I travel good distances to help set up or take down. I almost always pay full fees to shoot, even when I SO/RO as it helps the club. But I understand that at all of the clubs I shoot at, that I am GUEST shooter and I try to minimize the imposition I place on the club.

The difference is, in both IDPA and USPSA, most matches are set up and taken down with assistance by the visiting shooters minimizing the burden on the sponsoring club. Yes it is a burden we know that and we work to minimized it. In quickly and out quickly is the answer to the problem.

Allan did a great job with CAS at Mansfield, but like many organizers he was over worked and under supported by CAS.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[jkelly]

That's part of the reason that Allan no longer runs these shoots. As part of the CAS group at Mansfield...it was tough when we were treated as such.

CAS brought in a lot of money....and for the record, the CAS funds bought the steel, CAS wasn't "Fronted" the monies for the steel.

When we're treated as a burden for bringing in money for the club, it keeps people from wanting to put these together.

And while I didn't have time to run these myself...I was very happy to hear that Knob Creek was willing to help. He's brought up the reduced memberships many times before for people to come into Mansfield and help out. I think that it was a great idea. But where I"m working two jobs, and one of them has me working Wednesday Nights...I can't really do much about it.

CAS brought in around 1000 dollars a shoot to this club every month. It's a shame that members see making that kind of money a burden.

~Squirrely

C-Pher,
I believe that the club did "Front" the money for the steel, that is loan CAS Mansfield the money to buy the steel as well as the other props. I'll check with Fred verify.

I've always heard (repeatedly) about the money that CAS "made" but I could never pin that down. Could you check with the club treasurer and verify the $1,000 dollars a month that club "made" that you quoted? What was the total profit that CAS made over it's last two of three years at Mansfield? It sounds like your talking about $7,000 or $8,000 a year or maybe as much as $21,000 or $24,000 dollars over the last three years.

The problem, that CAS at Mansfield had, with the general club membership was one of personalities. I think that was its death knell at Mansfield.

There is certain finesse needed in dealing with a group of people who could care less if you are there or not. It appears that CAS continues to fail in that department.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Knob Creek]

Of course it’s a burden and an imposition to the club and its membership, what did you think the lost of 23 hours (the last time I checked) of range time over two days was?

CAS needs to understand there is little realized benefit by the general membership at Mansfield, as only a very, very few members shoot CAS. All the active shooting members see is that two ranges are shut down for parts of two days.


Allan did a great job with CAS at Mansfield, but like many organizers he was over worked and under supported by CAS.


Respectfully,

jkelly

23 Hours? Not 23 hours of shooting time if you set up Friday afternoon and take down 3:00 Saturday. Do you shoot in the dark?

Look, there are about 25 clubs in New England running CAS. I don't need to beg Mansfield to allow shoots. Your club has been asking for help and we were willing to give it. I would like to see it because it promotes the shooting sports and the club. And Mansfield was always a good time. And we gladly paid for the privilege of shooting there.

Apparently some others are unwilling to be inconvenienced with the range being shut down. Maybe the active members should pay attention to the Treasurers report also. And if you can continue to forego the revenue that CAS brought in that would help build your indoor. Thats OK its your club. Maybe that's why Action pistol left years ago and went down the road to Independent.

Probably the 100 yard range could be left open with some adjustments at the other range but....

 

[DCunniff]

He contacted club members with his decision to postpone the shoot, as I mentioned.

If he hasn't replied, he travels at times, here is the email for him again, [email protected].

As he said himself he is new to club and wanted to try to have it limited to club members. See if he replies and takes up offer of help to line up a solid shoot.

Club is adding electricity to ranges. One intent if it gets set up was to have some lights so could set up at the end of a day before a shoot so the range could be open longer the day before.

Dana

 

[jkelly]

23 Hours? Not 23 hours of shooting time if you set up Friday afternoon and take down 3:00 Saturday. Do you shoot in the dark?KnobCreek

"CAS starts set up a about 3pm on Friday night that’s about 3 three hours. On the last shoot that I noticed CAS used the range on a Saturday from 8:00am and hadn’t picked up by 4:30pm. That’s 8 ½ hours for a two day total of 11 ½ hours and they did that on two ranges. That’s 23 hours for the shoot..."---Me, from post 108 in this thread

Apparently you and some others are unwilling to be inconvenienced with the range being shut down. Maybe the active members should pay attention to the Treasurers report also. And if you can continue to forego the revenue that CAS brought in that would help build your indoor. Thats OK its your club. Maybe that's why Action pistol left years ago and went down the road to Independent.---Knob Creek

I said that:

I’m for ALL shooting sports that club members want to run at the club, including CAS.---Me

I guess you missed that.

I’ve asked C-Pher to check on the revenue as I’ve always heard about how much CAS made, but that point is moot as the club members don’t realize any benefit to having CAS at Mansfield, just lost range time. Any money going into the treasury has no immediate affect on the membership.

My understanding is that Paul moved to Independent because of conflicts with the past administration (if you research this you will see your argument is a real loser).


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Scrivener]

I would think any activity that puts $1k/event into a club's coffers and brings people to that club is A Good Thing. That money means the ability to maintain/upgrade/expand the club's facilities and programs, which benefits the members generally.

As for the action pistol events moving to Independent - they did and they are thriving in that location. We had the usual action pistol event, a revolver-only event AND a rimfire rifle event last month alone.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I have no dog in this fight, but I will share some comments that I have been told by officers/BOD of the club.

- I was told that the "straw that broke the camel's back" was the last CAS event where nobody came to help Alan setup. An officer stopped by to find Alan and his teenage child doing all the setup work themselves.

- I have never attended or even seen any CAS event. I am the "on duty" RSO at another club on the day that all the CAS events were held at MF&G. However, I was told directly that in general the CAS shooters didn't "kick in" and help out in setup or tear down for the events at MF&G.

- After the 1st NES shoot at MF&G, I was told that the club NETTED more money than any CAS shoot had ever done . . . and it was significantly less than $1000! I understand that there are significant costs in the equipment needed for a CAS event (I've seen pictures and some of the stuff in storage at the club), whereas an NES shoot isn't capital-intensive.

- The president of MF&G commented to me about how helpful the NES'rs were in setting up, tearing down and cleaning up after the NES shoot. I was proud to hear that as I was the sponsor for that event, but the strong implication was that he hadn't seen that same level of cooperation at CAS events at the club.

- Having attended almost every meeting of MF&G since I joined, I did hear some numbers from CAS events, and the profits (NET income) was relatively small and nowhere near the $1000 mark quoted above by some. Maybe those numbers ($1000/shoot) were achieved many years ago and not towards the end of those events? I don't know.

- Any scheduled shoot has an impact on those that pay their dues, don't participate in said event, but would still want to go to the club and shoot. So events do have a measurable impact on the club members. Revenue achieved at events does not have as much impact on most club members since most rarely attend meetings and thus don't know what is needed by the club ($ or work) or what's going on . . . they only care that the range is available during the day when they drive in to shoot. This is true at any club, not just MF&G!

 

[Blues508]

What happened in the past is not relative. You now have volunteers willing to step forward but some club members still resentful of having the range tied up.
I can't figure out what you want. You ask for help and someone offers help and then you have complaints about the range being tied up.

 

[jkelly]

I would think any activity that puts $1k/event into a club's coffers and brings people to that club is A Good Thing. That money means the ability to maintain/upgrade/expand the club's facilities and programs, which benefits the members generally.

As for the action pistol events moving to Independent - they did and they are thriving in that location. We had the usual action pistol event, a revolver-only event AND a rimfire rifle event last month alone.

If the CAS shoots did indeed put 1k/event into the club's coffers per shoot I'd be very impressed, I hope C-Pher is checking into that.

Paul did move to Independent and start a great Action Pistol program. As Knob Creek brought up the point perhaps he can find out why Paul moved and tell us why. Perhaps it's germane to this very discussion as Knob Creek implied.

Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[DCunniff]

Folks, I'm not an officer at MF&GPA. Here is some objective information, some of it already said by members and those wanting to do CAS.

The club lost people that set up and ran the CAS shoots. They got overworked, as I don't shoot it but I know I helped a couple of the last times before they stopped. They would probably shoot but MF&G needs someone to step forward and organize it.

This new person said he would run one in September and wanted it limited to members. It was tough to get a good enough amount and firm attendance so he postponed it. He hasn't run one there before and it was his call. He wanted it small and some told him he might have a problem getting enough people. He hasn't given up, just postponed it. I would think MF&G members would help more on a postponed one knowing there is more interest.

The CAS supplies were consolidated in one location. Some older items were discarded when the building was cleaned out and organized.

Electrical work started on the ranges. There is interest in putting up some lights to help the setup.

They used to run them about every other month spring into end of fall. The amount netted varied up $1000, more typically around $700. There is a cowboy fund as part of activities money.

The club still runs other shoots, some have low attendance and some have more. It is not just CAS that is slow out of the gate. Muzzleload shoots have been light. They ran .22 bullseye shoots in good light this summer and interest has grown. Military rifle, CMP, semiauto shoots have picked up and taken up some of the weekend dates. All of them will do better with time and interest. I believe some people across the clubs are cutting back on how many shoots they go to with fuel, ammo, food prices, etc.

If anyone wants to get a CAS event going whether they would help or not, you should contact MF&G. Lesky can't figure everything out at this time. The club from what I've seen as I go to the monthly meetings and I've gone to board meetings to listen, is interested in mamy types of shoots. It is a matter of getting people identified that would set up, organize, and run a CAS shoot. It has already been mentioned they are labor intensive.

There was some backlash on time it took to set up the ranges and time it took for members that wanted to use a range.

The presidents contact is on the website for MF&G CAS, Fred, http://www.mansfieldfish.com/Site Pages/Activities/Cowboy/EVENT CANCELLED.htm. He has organized with help the semiauto and military shoots.

Here is the officer page, they are looking to find ways to bring in members to do events. Netting money on events is important for any club, it brings in new members, and brings in ways to get members to help elsewhere in the club. The people if there are any that want no shoots of any kind are outnumbered and know ranges aren't open all the time at any place. I have seen people shoot when we were doing roof work on the front of the clubhouse. Some members don't want to do more than shoot as well. http://www.mansfieldfish.com/Officers & Directors.htm. My wife is one of the directors.

Black powder organizers would like to see more help too. Here is the website link for Ken, http://www.mansfieldfish.com/Site Pages/Activities/Black Powder/Black Powder.html

Dana

 

[jkelly]

They used to run them about every other month spring into end of fall. The amount netted varied up $1000, more typically around $700. There is a cowboy fund as part of activities money.---Dana

Dana,
Would you know how much money that the club “made” after expenses from the CAS shoots over the last two or three years? I'm expecting C-Pher to get back to us after talking with the club treasurer (as his $1000 per shoot assertion needs to be verified), but as you are very close to a Board member if you have any inside information I'd like to hear it.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[C-pher]

.....

 

[DCunniff]

Yes, I can check as well but C-pher said it above too.

I remember below and near $1,000 net, except for whatever props were needing repair or remake.

The amount like any other shoot is driven by how many people show up. I think the important thing for those interested in and outside the club is to see whether Lensky can get help lined up. I doubt he would sign on for figuring out every shoot and so we need to surface again who is interested within the club to get a CAS committee going again.

A shoot hasn't happened before because non-CAS members were trying to figure out interest for the most part. Maybe it is time to see whether it can be pulled off again.

Dana

 

[jkelly]

We would easly have 50-60 shooters....at 20 dollars a pop.

Take away 150 or so for food...

You tell me how much that money is?


I was there, collecting money before shoots and helping with Registration.

I would come and help set up...and when I did shoot, stayed to tear down.

I'm guessing, by your estimates, that the club profitted about $12,000 to $14,000 dollars the last two years that CAS ran. $1000 profit each month for 6 or 7 shoots a year for two years. That's a lot of money!

But I've heard so many different amounts of how much money the club made from so many different CAS shooters I'm really interested in how much you guys helped the club.

I've heard an off the cuff amount but I'd never post it without checking.

So could you verify the profit over say the last two years?


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[jkelly]

What happened in the past is not relative. You now have volunteers willing to step forward but some club members still resentful of having the range tied up.
I can't figure out what you want. You ask for help and someone offers help and then you have complaints about the range being tied up.

Yes some club members have no use for CAS, some still talk of the CAS equipment left on the range long after the last shoot ended.

But if you were talking to me, I'm pointing out the problems between the club membership and CAS. I wouldn't have bothered but Knob Creek mentioned it in his post.

As I'm not speaking for myself, but rather of what I've heard at the range, should CAS care to listen it might help the CAS/Mansfield relationship. If not I think CAS is likely to fissle again.

Either way I don't care.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[C-pher]

...

 

[jkelly]

Problem is you should care. It's money that used to come into the club, that isn't.---C-Pher

No, the problem is you’re telling me what I should care about. That is a good example of the point I’m trying to make.

The non CAS shooter never sees a positive effect from CAS shooting at the Mansfield club, all they see is the lost range time. If there was a profit from CAS over the last couple of years, and there must have been but I don’t seem to be able to get a actual figure, the average shooter couldn’t tell.

The non CAS shooter doesn’t want to be told what they should think or how much they should appreciate CAS. The non CAS shooter doesn’t want to hear CAS shooters pat themselves on the back or brag about what they’ve what can be accomplished with CAS profits. The average shooter wants to shoot and if CAS is going to take that away from them then CAS needs to be considerate about how it does so.

The club did well before CAS got there and it would do well after CAS leaves.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Scrivener]

If there was a profit from CAS over the last couple of years, and there must have been but I don’t seem to be able to get a actual figure, the average shooter couldn’t tell.

Which would suggest an INTERNAL problem, I think. While how much was generated is questioned, that there WAS a profit is not.

The club did well before CAS got there and it would do well after CAS leaves.

Finished that indoor range?


YET?