Manchester Firing Line

Your local gun club does this all the time. Raise the rates for trap/skeet, memberships, renewals, change the rules at the range preventing you from shooting a caliber or type of gun, remove access to ranges for money making club activities like letting the local police reserve it etc. It is all a complete reduction in benefits that were paid for.
Click to expand...

There is a conceptual difference between a "club" in which everyone is an owner and a "business" that operates on a fee for services basis. When you join a typical gun club, you are becoming a "member" in the truest sense of the word; get to vote on the officers of the club; are eligible to run for office yourself; and in many clubs get a key to the facility to go and use it any time you wish. When you join as a true "member" you should feel a sense of responsibility to the financial welfare of the club, offer to help out on a volunteer basis from time to time, etc. When you pay as a customer of a commercial enterprises, none of those come into play - you're paying a fee and someone else has absorbed the risk of loss and benefit of profit from the business practices.

"Joining" a commercial range is like "joining" a health club. You'e role is customer.


Rob, it is a continual cycle there. Memberships expire continually, all year. Each card runs one year from date of issue - there is no prorated period to true up all memberships to a particular date. By your lights, then, MFL could never raise rates.
Click to expand...

Your assertion is true only if you work from the assumption that it is not possible to apply different policies based on when the individual's membership was paid. I make no such assumption.

Also note what I said about the difference between raising rates and a change in terms such as adding "the free guest policy you were told came with the membership no longer exists".

My suggestions are simple:

- Memberships in such a range should state the offered range fee as percentage of the non-member fee - "50% of the non-member fee at the time of use". This is an easy way to make sure that future price changes are not thought of as a change in benefit.

- Other benefits should be left unaltered for the duration of the membership whenever possible.

- The web page http://www.gunsnh.com/pricelists.php should be updated as it has the old prices and guest policy.

I have heard nothing but good things about MFL - and NES being what it is, if there was anything less than flattering to say about the place, it would already have been said. I wish Jim the best and hope he succeeds.
 
Last edited:
Thank you everyone for your support or opinions. I have no problem whatsoever with his point of view, thats what makes this country a great one!
His delivery needed some polishing,and he knows that.

It would have been far worse if I continued to go down the same road, then announced, I was closing the doors because I couldn't pay the bills. That happened to me 30 years ago with a new health club a month into a membership.

When I started this project, I had a budget that would have worked keeping the same rates for quite some time. Then came the contractors, not a single one did as promised with time or price. The air system went from being a 160,000.00 job to a 292,000.00 job to separate the member from non-member ranges and keep the proper flow.

The other way would have had them both running with one customer shooting, and all this is after I'd made it clear at the start what was needed. The roof was the next nightmare! Do I leave as is and fix it in a couple of years,or fix it now and save 30,000.00 I decided to do it now,go with white TPO rubber to reflect the heat in the summer,and possibly not need the air conditioner- at 74,500.00. When it hit 90 degrees,the air conditioner was a must the white roof was not enough to keep it cool. I had a temporary unit come in on a flatbed for a rental fee of 4,000.00 per month,and 18 gallons of diesel fuel per day. The new AC unit was then ordered at a cost of 130,000.00

Johnson Controls orders the Unit, then informs me that the building does not have enough power to run it.

Now PSNH is going to give me my very own light pole to run it, at a cost of 14,000.00 to install the pole. My electrician will bring the new service into the building for another 20,000.00 - and a new concrete pad at 3,500.00

First fuel bill comes in at 5,000.00 that is 3,000.00 more than the old place after being told that the Buderus (sp) furnace was the best in the world - damn, I'd hate to see the bill for the worst one!

I could go on for another half hour - but I'm sure you get the point. With all of these upgrades, something had to happen now! Contractors lie,tell you what you want to hear - but cover asses well when the job is started.

Last, but far from least - Insurance! Hate that car/house insurance bill? Try getting insurance to allow 2-3 thousand people a month to come to your business to shoot firearms! They charged way more than the old building, and won't even reduce the liability of the old building because we are going to do classes there. They have you right by the N@ts - and know it!

Value: Bob's Tactical Salisbury $20.00 for two people in one lane/no membership required.
New Range in Hinsdale, NH - $400.00 for a basic member / $1,000.00 for no fee shooting, Family added for 50% more.

Apples to Apples / MFLR is the best deal for a Public Range /Private Clubs are the best value for those that want to save!

My life savings and a lot more are into this place, I had to make tough decisions to keep it above water.
 
Last edited:
piman said:
Of course not. In fact it makes it simpler. The business would define a sunset date which is a year from the effective date of rate increases. Then for memberships that expire before the sunset date, the old rates would apply for a certain period (others pay the new rates which can be the only ones posted), ideally for the length of the membership which is now guaranteed to be less than a year. If the certain period is less, say 2 months, then the people with affected memberships are given an offer to cancel for an appropriate refund.
Click to expand...
Jim just offered that refund prorated, flat out, on a public forum. Should he shine your shoes too? I renewed about 1 month before the guest cost change. It will "cost" me a good amount too, as I almost always go with my spouse or another guest. But I did the math and it's still a net gain to me to be a member - I make back the cost over the year just by shooting in bad weather, not to mention the other member discounts and benefits. I'm a member of a club that's closer to me than Jim's but between the weather and club-permitted events that close the range, I'll always want an indoor range - especially with the advantages of Jim's.

Rob Boudrie said:
Your assertion is true only if you work from the assumption that it is not possible to apply different policies based on when the individual's membership was paid. I make no such assumption.
Click to expand...
As to having three sets of rates for counter employees to pay attention to given the crowds that are sometimes there, I think that's asking a lot from a small business. Both of you seem very casual about telling a business you have never run how easy it will be to have three sets of rates, varying by the handwritten date on a paper card. He raised his rates, offered prorated refunds, and there you go. There is a membership BACKLOG - there's your evidence of price pressure. Those people will be deciding between no discount and what's offered under the new plan. As to whether he should be measuring price pressure over the course of a year, well, he flat-out said that right now he's got simpler math to worry about: Gross profit and operating expenses.
 
Last edited:
Jim - I wish you the best of luck in pulling it off. My comments are intended to be constructive, not critical.

Both of you seem very casual about telling a business you have never run how easy it will be to have three sets of rates, varying by the handwritten date on a paper card.
Click to expand...

As I said before, the issue is not so much the rate, but the addition of a "fee for a guest in the same lane" policy. I have sympathy for a business, but I think like a consumer.

It would be VERY easy to change the color of the membership card and tell staff "If someone has a blue card don't charge for a guest in the same lane; if they have a green card, be sure to get money for the guest".

What I do not know is how much of a difference it would make to the cash flow. It's an interesting business case, as the issue is simply one of existing customers lost vs. additional revenue, since another person in the same lane does not reduce the number of available lanes as a result of the guest's presence .
 
Last edited:
Rob, not offended at all.
But, two people on one lane does cost more for a couple of reasons:
A. My insurance company charges by a set rate- and volume of people. (sliding scale)
B. Two people on one lane stay longer than one - and lane time is just like a restaurant. The longer they stay at a table,the slower the turnover rate,the fewer people served.

Fact: we've been full at times from open to close. We have put more people through the old range in a day like this, than the new one,even with four more lanes. The turnover is slower with the additional members we have in the nicer facility even with the additional lanes.

So, do I: Increase Membership numbers for more revenue? (causing a backup waiting line for paid members) I can't do that, making reservations is the Number #1 reason people join!
 
Like Rob said we are just thinking like customers and trying to have our opinion heard. Jim is the only one who seems to be open to taking constructive criticism and it is his place. I was harsh initially and quickly changed my tune when I realized I was being inappropriate. Thanks Jim for accepting the criticism with grace and giving real answers as to why you had to do what you had to do. For very few of us the real reason we are upset is the guest rate and thats all. Everything else about the range is amazing and no one is saying anything different.
 
After doing some reseach on other local ranges, reading this thread and visiting the new MFL as a non-member several times and seeing the MFL members be able to call ahead, walk in the building, check in and get a lane bypassing the long non-member line I have stood in I would like to invest in a membership. Me and my family really enjoy the saftey factor and how clean and professional this new range is. Plus they have alot of neato tacticool stuff :)

Keep up the good work MFLR the new place is more than worth your current price point to me personally. I sent you an IM with my contact info so if dongalonga does give up his membership I will gladly take his membership spot.

Tim
 
OK, I've gone back and forth about three dozen times over whether to post this or not but what the hell.

My respect for Jim and what's he's built at MFLR is off the charts. Not only has he put together a world-class indoor range and an amazing gun shop, he's put his own ass on the line over issues with the New Boston CoP. He's also a good dude.

That said, I went into the shop on a Sunday a couple of weeks back to pick up some accessories. There were a couple of guys behind the counter but neither of them bothered to ask if I needed help. This would be understandable if the place was packed (as it often is) but there weren't more then three people in the entire store. One guy was going through a pile of paperwork and the other was rolling up some targets while the two of them shot the shit. I tired to get their attention but didn't want to yell across the place even after being ignored. Fortunately, about a half hour later a 3rd guy was coming on duty, saw me and asked if he could help. I got my stuff, paid and was out the door.

I certainly don't expect a red carpet to be laid down as I walk in or fawning attention from everyone behind the counter but a quick "Hi, how are ya, can I help you with something?" would go a long way.

The only reason I'm mentioning this is that it's the 3rd time I've noticed how difficult it is to get help to buy something. I realize the range takes up a lot of people's time but it would go a long way (and hopefully improve sales) if the guys working there took a moment to ask people if they need help.

Sorry if this sounds whiny or whatever but it's just constructive criticism.
 
1 - I would have no hesitation to call out "can someone please help me over here"! in a case like this.

2 - You should have dropped Jim an Email, especially if this has happened more than once. He can't fix what he doesn't know about and if it is a systemic problem I'm sure he wants to know (not read it here on NES) so he can have a little pep talk with his help.
 
I can't say I haven't run into some pretty darn long lines at MFL, or that it's cheap to shoot there, but at the same time it's the nicest pay-n-shoot around by far. I haven't seen any private clubs' indoor ranges but just judging by the places I have been MFL is a really nice spot to shoot. Definitely one thing I notice all the time is how much more pleasant it is to shoot magnums and other loud/concussive stuff there. Having someone in the next lane shooting something big in Attleboro is a rough scene...

The price increase may affect my willingness to drive up there a bit, but I don't think you can really argue with it too much. It's an order of magnitude nicer than any other range I've been to around here and you have to figure that you're going to pay to use facilities that nice. Great ventillation, nice target carriers, nice staff, etc.
 
you might want to update your address on the website BTW. i went to the old shop and it had some hand drawn map on the door pointing the person to the new one. well, i went to Riley's instead and spent some cash. [thinking] seriously, WTF? i punched in two addresses, the brown ave and the gay st FROM YOUR WEBSITE. get there, and it's a hand drawn map telling me, someone who's never been there to go somewhere else. i'm pretty patient, but that just pissed me off. so i chose NOT to shop there.
 
We have two addresses!!! Both are on the web site - the primary one is listed first. Being a former Mountain Infantry Platoon Sgt myself - I don't understand the confusion of going 125 yards to the east????

Seriously though - I have a kick ass sign coming if the snow ever thaws - there will be no doubt where to go.
 
I just wanted to update. Jim is a stand up guy and had no problem refunding the remainder of my membership. No questions asked. Thanks Jim. I wish things could have been different. Good luck with all of your future endeavors.
 
MFLR said:
Geez Weebles - we go way back, a phone call could have corrected that much sooner than now! I printed this off for all employees to read and sign it....
Thank you!!!
Click to expand...

Jim, I wasn't even sure I should post this or not, but I've been in sales for 20 years and know how tough it is to make a living.

Your place is awesome and I'll definitely keep shopping there.
 
MFLR said:
We have two addresses!!! Both are on the web site - the primary one is listed first. Being a former Mountain Infantry Platoon Sgt myself - I don't understand the confusion of going 125 yards to the east????

Seriously though - I have a kick ass sign coming if the snow ever thaws - there will be no doubt where to go.
Click to expand...

a sign? how about updating the website to the actual address? i personally don't get that far up in NH but 2 or 3 times a year... rest of the times, it's Nashua or Salem... (middlesex county, MA)

i'm sure there may be other's who are in the same boat.

why drive an hour to a sign when we could to the actual?
 
wolf223 said:
a sign? how about updating the website to the actual address?
Click to expand...

Wolf, the address is on the website.

The new place is pretty much right next door to the old place:

2j0nyba.jpg
 
From the site...

--[ Manchester Directions ]--

Manchester Firing Line Range, LLC. is located near the Manchester Airport off of Brown Avenue.
2540 Brown Ave. and 50 Gay St.
Manchester, NH 03103-6815
(603) 668-9015 phone
(603) 628-7663 fax
 
Flyer007 said:
From the site...

--[ Manchester Directions ]--

Manchester Firing Line Range, LLC. is located near the Manchester Airport off of Brown Avenue.
2540 Brown Ave. and 50 Gay St.
Manchester, NH 03103-6815
(603) 668-9015 phone
(603) 628-7663 fax
Click to expand...

yup. [thinking]

i see that i drove right by it. it was my first time. again, why have two when one is closed.
 
As Mike stated above - both are open at times "weekends" and both addresses are listed so those that are told to go to 50 Gay Street can find it. The sign on the door is for those that have been coming for 20 years,and don't know that we've moved. My big sign planned for Brown Ave in the spring will clear up most of the confusion.
Thanks for the feedback - I do listen & act
 
Last edited:
Thank you for doing so... We have had growning pains since we opened the new building, we have six more employees than before,and need to hear when the ball is dropped.

I'm never satisfied, and always try to be better than the day before,and this helps!!
Thanks again...Jim
 
wolf223 said:
you might want to update your address on the website BTW. i went to the old shop and it had some hand drawn map on the door pointing the person to the new one. well, i went to Riley's instead and spent some cash. [thinking] seriously, WTF? i punched in two addresses, the brown ave and the gay st FROM YOUR WEBSITE. get there, and it's a hand drawn map telling me, someone who's never been there to go somewhere else. i'm pretty patient, but that just pissed me off. so i chose NOT to shop there.
Click to expand...

So you went through all of that when you could have just called them up, spent 1-2 mins on the phone and said "Hey guys im on (wherever) and I can't find the damn range... can you guide me in?" I would have at least done that before giving up.

I agree the main range needs a bigger sign, preferably close to the road. It is easy to miss if you aren't "intently" looking for it. Even so, I still had no trouble finding the
place, I got lost the first time but it only took me another pass down brown ave to find it.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
So you went through all of that when you could have just called them up, spent 1-2 mins on the phone and said "Hey guys im on (wherever) and I can't find the damn range... can you guide me in?" I would have at least done that before giving up.

I agree the main range needs a bigger sign, preferably close to the road. It is easy to miss if you aren't "intently" looking for it. Even so, I still had no trouble finding the
place, I got lost the first time but it only took me another pass down brown ave to find it.

-Mike
Click to expand...


<-----we aren't exactly "patient" when moving to an objective..... if it's off, DITTY MAO! IT'S A TRAP! [laugh] now that is see where it is, i'll give it a go on the next run.
 
wolf223 said:
<-----we aren't exactly "patient" when moving to an objective..... if it's off, DITTY MAO! IT'S A TRAP! [laugh] now that is see where it is, i'll give it a go on the next run.
Click to expand...

Ha ha - I think you missed the objective, but damn you were close! You also failed map reading on that 1/4 map taped to the door.
Just drop 100 and "fire for effect" :>)
 
MFLR said:
The Manchester Sign Nazis won't keep me down as much as all the snow....
Click to expand...

Indeed! Yesterday I sent an Email to the Supt of Public Works in my town asking what special permits I need to install a ski lift on the mountain of snow at the bottom of my driveway! [laugh] [I'm on a corner and they plow up a mountain on the corners . . . it's now >1/2 the height of a 50 yo Maple tree on that corner!]
 

Similar threads

3rd Ma. Based on-line gun auction Based in Ma. Looking for consignments.
Replies
19
Views
1K
chris_1001
chris_1001
Best place to find used guns within 2 hours of Manchester, NH
Replies
19
Views
1K
CoastieRon
CoastieRon
Northeast Munitions, Manchester NH
Replies
2
Views
4K
atp
A
Portsmouth-Manchester FFL
Replies
4
Views
1K
jibbr71
jibbr71
Fine Line Firearms in Boxborough - anyone have any experience / knowledge ??
Replies
1
Views
1K
Thinking
T
Back
Top Bottom