MA Towns Suspending Licensing?

Filing fee and sheriff's fee for legal service. Gets it in front of a judge. Like I said, CYA. When in doubt, document, document, document! Lawyers and prosecutors dwell on documentation and small details. The more you have, the better!
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Do you know how to write a proper brief? Exactly the expected format for a table of authorities? How to search for and cite relevant precedents? How to subpoena documents from the other side and conduct the discovery process?

When you have it all together, are you going to put the brief in final form yourself or do what many attorneys do and hire Bateman & Slade do that work and print it in a manner that complies with court standards (figure $500ish for a simple case)? I would not advise a DIY approach to this part of the process, and note it is tricky enough many attorneys hire a specialist rather than have in-house underpaid paralegals do it.
 
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308rifleman said:
Filing fee and sheriff's fee for legal service. Gets it in front of a judge. Like I said, CYA. When in doubt, document, document, document! Lawyers and prosecutors dwell on documentation and small details. The more you have, the better!
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Uhhh, no.

Lawyers dwell on money. They'd love to meet you, because I suspect you'd pay them plenty. I've always gotten that impression, from your posts and your history.
 
MisterHappy said:
Yes. Submitted to the State. Not to the local PD.

You have to go through the locals, but it's a state-issued license. If it's in a heap on a desk in your local police station, it's not submitted.
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You are wrong. It is submitted the moment you hand it to whomever is collecting the application in person at the PD or if done by mail, the moment they sign for the certified/return receipt piece of mail.

The submission of the application is done at the local PD. It is their requirement to cause a copy of it to be forwarded to the state who in turn sends back to the PD an approval or denial. The local PD then must notify the applicant within the specified time frame of of said denial or issue the license in the specified time frame.

All the mechanical processes take place at the local PD.....interviews, prints, pictures, licence lamination/printing, etc. The physical license does not come from the state police.

I'm also curious as to how many times you have renewed an LTC. I've got five resident LTC renewals under my belt, and three MG licences.
In every case, the first thing that happened to that application when it was presented to the desk sergeant was it was slid into a date/time stamp machine logging it in and the process clock started at that moment.
 
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Uzi2 said:
You are wrong. It is submitted the moment you hand it to whomever is collecting the application in person at the PD or if done by mail, the moment they sign for the certified/return receipt piece of mail.
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Your declaration of fact not withstanding, this is not a settled legal issue. The other side will take the position it is submitted via MIRCS as the submission is from the PD to MIRCS, not from the person to the PD.

Can you point to a statute or case that establishes what you are saying to be true, without relying on your specific interpretation of the meaning of the word "submitted"?
 
MisterHappy said:
OK.

But, if all of this is required, why are there so few LTCs in applicants' hands within the 40 days?


Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the actual cards are manufactured at the State level, and are not laminated at the local PD.
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The are made by the FRB in Chelsea and do not use a lamination process.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Your declaration of fact not withstanding, this is not a settled legal issue. The other side will take the position it is submitted via MIRCS as the submission is from the PD to MIRCS, not from the person to the PD.

Can you point to a statute or case that establishes what you are saying to be true, without relying on your specific interpretation of the meaning of the word "submitted"?
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No, can you?

I will rely on the standard definition. There is nothing further required from an applicant regarding the tendering of the application.

3. present (a proposal, application, or other document) to a person or body for consideration or judgment.
  1. "the panel's report was submitted to a parliamentary committee"
    synonyms:
    put forward · present · set forth · offer · proffer · tender ·
 
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Uzi2 said:
No, can you?
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No, I can't cite a statute that says you are wrong - but the one making a claim bears the burden of proof in logical argument, which is why we do not accept the existence of Russel's Teapot as fact.

You can also futher sub-divide "submitted". Is it submitted when tendered for first class mail delivery,or only when actually received?
 
Notwithstanding the arguments over "submitted" and "accepted"...

If you having an expiring LTC and your PD has announced they are closed to all applications/renewals, you have what options?
1) Let your LTC expire and transfer or surrender all of your firearms
2) Let your LTC expire and keep all of your firearms
3) "Submit" the renewal to the best of your ability (e.g. cerified/RR mail) to use as a defense if you get caught/charged with an offense.
4) Get a lawyer and try some more expensive legal tactic

Any other options people can suggest?
Hopefully nobody is in this situation but in all likelihood there are people out there that DO need to renew during this crisis.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
No, I can't cite a statute that says you are wrong - but the one making a claim bears the burden of proof in logical argument, which is why we do not accept the existence of Russel's Teapot as fact.

You can also futher sub-divide "submitted". Is it submitted when tendered for first class mail delivery,or only when actually received?
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Please Rob, you are starting to sound like Bill Clinton and his definition of is.

I specifically stated when the return receipt was signed......that proves delivery by the post office and receipt by the PD.

If the PD loses it from there, its on them.....not the applicant.
 
I renewed a couple of years ago. Dropped off renewal with check and authentication of drivers licence photo. No need for a face to face renewal.
 
Uzi2 said:
I specifically stated when the return receipt was signed......that proves delivery by the post office and receipt by the PD.
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In MA a rifle or shotgun is not a firearm under the law - unless you possess it on school property.
Only handguns are firearms
But, a Firearms ID Card does not allow purchase or possession of the items MGL defines as Firearms.
Words in MA law are not always interpreted to mean what they would in normal use of the language.

My point is the issue is not "plain English", but what the system (courts) considers the word "submitted" to mean. As Alice said "“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." - applies perfectly, just replace Alice with the courts.

I would absolutely agree with your interpretation if we were discussing parsing of English syntax. We are not; we are discussing the specific MA court accepted legal meaning of a word.

This is unlikely to be tested since it's only a civil infraction, and if brought, would most likely be disposed of with a nominal fine well below one hour of legal fees.
 
RHJJ said:
I renewed a couple of years ago. Dropped off renewal with check and authentication of drivers licence photo. No need for a face to face renewal.
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Different towns do it differently.


If you want to see the reality, Uzi, please see this thread:

www.northeastshooters.com

WTF Somerville

So in the beginning of February my son called Somerville PD to submit his LTC license application. He got his FID at age 16 and LTC at age 21 in our suburban home town. Somerville tells him that the captain requires an interview with everyone and the earliest interview date is in the middle...
www.northeastshooters.com www.northeastshooters.com
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
Do you know how to write a proper brief? Exactly the expected format for a table of authorities? How to search for and cite relevant precedents? How to subpoena documents from the other side and conduct the discovery process?

When you have it all together, are you going to put the brief in final form yourself or do what many attorneys do and hire Bateman & Slade do that work and print it in a manner that complies with court standards (figure $500ish for a simple case)? I would not advise a DIY approach to this part of the process, and note it is tricky enough many attorneys hire a specialist rather than have in-house underpaid paralegals do it.
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The judge knows the law. Let him or her worry about that. What matters are facts. MGL spells out clearly that state residents MUST have a LTC for handguns and large capacity rifles and shotguns. FID for anything else. It also spells out, quite clearly, the 40 day rule. As plaintiff, all you have to demonstrate in your summons/complaint is that, for example, you own a gun, that you have a certain type of gun; that MA MGL requires a LTC/FID to legally possess that gun under penalty of felony prosecution; you do, in fact, have an active LTC/FID that is about to expire; and your local licensing authority is refusing to renew it. Doesn't take a legal dream team of attorneys to put this in front of a judge. You are trying to CYA and avoid arrest. You get caught with the gun and expired license, there are very few LEO's who will not haul you off to jail and let the court sort it out. Better to be proactive than reactive. My company would fire me in a heartbeat if they ever found out I got busted on a weapons charge. YMMV.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
In MA a rifle or shotgun is not a firearm under the law - unless you possess it on school property.
Only handguns are firearms
But, a Firearms ID Card does not allow purchase or possession of the items MGL defines as Firearms.
Words in MA law are not always interpreted to mean what they would in normal use of the language.

My point is the issue is not "plain English", but what the system (courts) considers the word "submitted" to mean. As Alice said "“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." - applies perfectly, just replace Alice with the courts.

I would absolutely agree with your interpretation if we were discussing parsing of English syntax. We are not; we are discussing the specific MA court accepted legal meaning of a word.

This is unlikely to be tested since it's only a civil infraction, and if brought, would most likely be disposed of with a nominal fine well below one hour of legal fees.
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I don't know what the fine is or would be, nor would I give it a second thought. If processing of a renewal application of my LTC was denied by a PD simply because they refused the application either in person or by mail over a virus, I would continue to carry a loaded firearm on my person......until the cows came home.
When they disregard my due process, they lose their authority over me.
 
Congrats on being the test case. Let us know how much a legal (non) dream team costs, and the outcome.

I (and others, most likely) appreciate your vehemence, and righteous ire.

There is an unlimited grace period for apps submitted before expiration date....because everyone knows that the 40-day requirement is, essentially, bullshit. This makes moot any complaints about the 40 days not being met.

Perhaps you taking this to the courts will cause them to do something similar with submission of applications.
 
MisterHappy said:
Congrats on being the test case. Let us know how much a legal (non) dream team costs, and the outcome.

I (and others, most likely) appreciate your vehemence, and righteous ire.

There is an unlimited grace period for apps submitted before expiration date....because everyone knows that the 40-day requirement is, essentially, bullshit. This makes moot any complaints about the 40 days not being met.

Perhaps you taking this to the courts will cause them to do something similar with submission of applications.
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It doesn't make anything moot. The chiefs are still in violation of the law and should be held responsible for it. If a chief issues the LTC a year later, he's still in violation of the law.....which stipulates 40 days.......not 60 or 90 or 300 or 365 days.

Thats like saying that an armed bank robber shouldn't be prosecuted for robbing the bank because he walked in an hour later or two days or a year later and returned the money he stole......he still committed armed robbery.

How long does it take to process a concealed carry application?
Within 7 days of receiving an application, a copy must be sent to the colonel of state police. The colonel of the state police will have 30 days to advise the licensing authority of any disqualifying record.
“The licensing authority shall, within 40 days from the date of application, either approve the application and issue the license or deny the application and notify the applicant of the reason for such denial in writing[…]“
Relevant Code(s):
Section 140-131

Notice the word SHALL above......that is not a suggestion......it is an order by the legislature.....your elected officials that represent YOU .......to to the chiefs of police. It is the operative word in the law......SHALL, not might, not must, not may, SHALL.
 
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Broccoli Iglesias said:
A certified receipt doesnt prove anything. It only proves you sent something that required signature, and because someone might have to sign for it on the other end, they might actually do something with it. Besides, I dont know any PD in MA thst will renew over the mail, dont they all ask for an interview? - maybe I always got lucky.

That is assuming you even get the little green paper back. I think I only get about 40% of those back.
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If you are not getting the little green paper back, you are either filling it out wrong or your postal workers are incompetent.

The whole point of paying for certified mail is , it is hand delivered ( or picked up and signed for at a post office) and the recipient's signature as proof of delivery.
 
Woodsy said:
I would like to see some additional pay since the additional is higher than the public. That’s not perk.
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Will grocery store clerks get more? Nope, just their minimum wage.
Pharmacy technicians? Same

Those two groups are going to be exposed at extremely higher rates than police.

Police get paid plenty - asking for more is just greed taking advantage of a crisis

It should be enough to tell the virus they have qualified immunity so it can't infect them.
 
Concur - MIRCS is the system of record; therefore recording in MIRCS would be the time of submission.
This is how it currently works and until the SCOTUS changes Chevron, any attack on this process will most likely fail.

Rob Boudrie said:
Your declaration of fact not withstanding, this is not a settled legal issue. The other side will take the position it is submitted via MIRCS as the submission is from the PD to MIRCS, not from the person to the PD.

Can you point to a statute or case that establishes what you are saying to be true, without relying on your specific interpretation of the meaning of the word "submitted"?
Click to expand...
 

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