MA Towns Suspending Licensing?

[Darksideblues42]

A certified receipt doesnt prove anything. It only proves you sent something that required signature, and because someone might have to sign for it on the other end, they might actually do something with it. Besides, I dont know any PD in MA thst will renew over the mail, dont they all ask for an interview? - maybe I always got lucky.

That is assuming you even get the little green paper back. I think I only get about 40% of those back.

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has clear direction on their website which states applications can be mailed in. This is supported by law.

Apply for a firearms license

A firearms license is required to possess or carry firearms in Massachusetts.

www.mass.gov

Time for police departments to start following the law.

 

[DJBrad]

I would like to see some additional pay since the additional is higher than the public. That’s not perk.

I would like more pay too. Some hazard pay. I know it won’t happen though.

 

[Picton]

As I sit here and ponder, I can think of perhaps 1,301,477 jobs with much higher exposure to germs than cops have.

Higher pay? To buy purell and latex gloves? Good lord, @Woodsy.

 

[MisterHappy]

Time for police departments to start following the law.

The reason that there are penalties under laws, is that it compels compliance. There is no penalty for the PDs, or the personnel involved, for violation of these laws, so that's not gonna happen.

A while back, GOAL brought to the attention of the State Inspector General that some localities were charging more than the the mandated $100 for LTC issuance. The IG agreed, and said something to the effect that GOAL should tell them to stop doing it. And, IIRC, nobody was penalized, and the stolen money was not returned.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

The reason that there are penalties under laws, is that it compels compliance. There is no penalty for the PDs, or the personnel involved, for violation of these laws, so that's not gonna happen.

A while back, GOAL brought to the attention of the State Inspector General that some localities were charging more than the the mandated $100 for LTC issuance. The IG agreed, and said something to the effect that GOAL should tell them to stop doing it. And, IIRC, nobody was penalized, and the stolen money was not returned.

That's why I also pick and choose which laws to abide by and which ones to ignore. Jack.

 

[Uzi2]

As I sit here and ponder, I can think of perhaps 1,301,477 jobs with much higher exposure to germs than cops have.

Higher pay? To buy purell and latex gloves? Good lord, @Woodsy.

Gloves and hand sanitizer are already provided by every police, sheriff's and fire department that I know of and have been for many years.

Thry're just grabbing for another teet, the moment they here the words "federal money" being uttered.

 

[Devils Paintbrush]

In the meantime we will bust down your door shoot your dog and take your guns. After all your license has expired.

Brings up an interesting point, if police and the law enforcement apparatus are slowing down enforcement for "virus", how eager will they be to go door to door confiscating firearms when they get a greater than 10% percent chance of someone taking a shot at them.

I am not talking about typical non-shooting street thugs, but people with knowledge and skills necessary to make their task at best miserable.

 

[gerrycaruso]

I'm all set but for those who are up for renewal, if your license expires because you weren't allowed to submit a renewal application, are you still covered?

 

[Mark from MA]

I would simply send them a letter that says since you can't provide the services that my taxes provide for by issuing licenses by state law. Obviously with your department not following state law, I will now am forced to use the Constitution the backup federal law and carry guns as it allows. Please let me know when your services are back online and I will follow state laws again.

Now....they will probably find it important enough to show up at your door to take your guns....hand them the license application and fee, and get it on video as proof that you gave it to them and are grandfathered in the renewal period.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

If they want to take my guns, I'll open the safe for them which is filled with power tools. Never keep your guns where the can be found. Not that hard to do. Jack.

 

[Uzi2]

The reason that there are penalties under laws, is that it compels compliance. There is no penalty for the PDs, or the personnel involved, for violation of these laws, so that's not gonna happen.

A while back, GOAL brought to the attention of the State Inspector General that some localities were charging more than the the mandated $100 for LTC issuance. The IG agreed, and said something to the effect that GOAL should tell them to stop doing it. And, IIRC, nobody was penalized, and the stolen money was not returned.

Then both laws are defective on their face and invalid.

If there is no ability to hold the violator liable either criminally or civilly for their actions or inactions then there is no possibility for the person being victimized to receive due process.

 

[MisterHappy]

Agreed. But, since the law is on the books, there's minimal recourse for aggrieved applicants.

To whom should they complain? The PD that's non-compliant? The Town/City administration? The state?

The law was written precisely to do nothing, which is precisely what it does.

 

[MisterHappy]

I'm all set but for those who are up for renewal, if your license expires because you weren't allowed to submit a renewal application, are you still covered?

IANAL, but I know of no part of the licensing laws that would provide for that.

 

[wilson911]

Just a nice Thank You will suffice

You do get a Thank You every week with your pay check. If you dont like doing the job you are paid for , then find another line of grift. Or, do like most cops and fake a disability.

 

[Uzi2]

Agreed. But, since the law is on the books, there's minimal recourse for aggrieved applicants.

To whom should they complain? The PD that's non-compliant? The Town/City administration? The state?

The law was written precisely to do nothing, which is precisely what it does.

Then it has no teeth in either direction.

Government cannot impose a requirement of an action by a citizen and then not facilitate that action being acted upon by government......the very concept of such a situation is absurd.

That would be the same thing as government requiring you to pay a tax or fee, then not facilitating said payment or not accepting your payment....all the while racking up penalties and interest on the tax owed.

If government WILL NOT process an LTC renewal for no other reason than they just don't want to, or are delaying said process out of fear of contact with the public, then what ever license is in force at the time their ridiculous decision is made should stay in force until such time as government gets over its fear or finds a way to renew said license electronically.
There is no reason to have to go to a police station other than to have a picture taken. ( or to be intimidated) Even the ATF processes forms mailed in for registration transfers of machine guns and all other NFA devices. You don't have to present the forms in person.
The police departments are just looking to throw yet another monkey wrench into the system to further deny people of their rights......and they should be punished for it.......if they cannot be punished, then nobody has any requirement to obey their or the state's dictates.

 

[Broc]

Then it has no teeth in either direction.

Government cannot impose a requirement of an action by a citizen and then not facilitate that action being acted upon by government......the very concept of such a situation is absurd.

That would be the same thing as government requiring you to pay a tax or fee, then not facilitating said payment or not accepting your payment....all the while racking up penalties and interest on the tax owed.

If government WILL NOT process an LTC renewal for no other reason than they just don't want to, or are delaying said process out of fear of contact with the public, then what ever license is in force at the time their ridiculous decision is made should stay in force until such time as government gets over its fear or finds a way to renew said license electronically.
There is no reason to have to go to a police station other than to have a picture taken. ( or to be intimidated) Even the ATF processes forms mailed in for registration transfers of machine guns and all other NFA devices. You don't have to present the forms in person.
The police departments are just looking to throw yet another monkey wrench into the system to further deny people of their rights......and they should be punished for it.......if they cannot be punished, then nobody has any requirement to obey their or the state's dictates.

I hear you, but this is MA. They way they think is:

"f*ck you, if you dont like it, fight it in court. If you are lucky, after spending thousands of dollars and a year fighting it, we will apologize. And you better not have anything we dont like, because we dont need to prove you are guilty, you need to prove you are innocent".

 

[JJ4]

From here:

Renew a firearms license

A firearms license is required to possess or carry firearms in Massachusetts.

www.mass.gov

"To qualify for the grace period, you MUST submit your renewal application prior to the expiration date of your current license. "

So, submit your renewal as stated by the law. Submit it via a method that you can prove it was submitted.

The law only requires that the application be submitted on time.

MGL Ch 130 sec 131 says:

"Within seven days of the receipt of a completed application for a license to carry or possess firearms, or renewal of same ".

If you can prove that "receipt", you have therefore applied for renewal. It says nothing about the PD "accepting" the application.

It also says:
"The licensing authority shall provide to the applicant a receipt indicating that it received the application. The receipt shall be provided to the applicant within 7 days by mail if the application was received by mail or immediately if the application was made in person "

Lastly:
"A license to carry or possess firearms shall be valid, unless revoked or suspended, for a period of not more than 6 years from the date of issue and shall expire on the anniversary of the licensee's date of birth occurring not less than 5 years nor more than 6 years from the date of issue; provided, however, that, if the licensee applied for renewal before the license expired, the license shall remain valid after its expiration date for all lawful purposes until the application for renewal is approved or denied. "


In my opinion, sending it certified mail return receipt satisfies the written law. If you are paranoid you can videotape yourself stuffing the application into the envelope.

I am not a lawyer.

 

[Uzi2]

I hear you, but this is MA. They way they think is:

"f*ck you, if you dont like it, fight it in court. If you are lucky, after spending thousands of dollars and a year fighting it, we will apologize. And you better not have anything we dont like, because we dont need to prove you are guilty, you need to prove you are innocent".

Not buying that lame argument. You may think that is true but it is not.

 

[free]

"To qualify for the grace period, you MUST submit your renewal application prior to the expiration date of your current license. "

So, submit your renewal as stated by the law. Submit it via a method that you can prove it was submitted.

The law only requires that the application be submitted on time.

MGL Ch 130 sec 131 says:

"Within seven days of the receipt of a completed application for a license to carry or possess firearms, or renewal of same ".

If you can prove that "receipt", you have therefore applied for renewal. It says nothing about the PD "accepting" the application.

It also says:
"The licensing authority shall provide to the applicant a receipt indicating that it received the application. The receipt shall be provided to the applicant within 7 days by mail if the application was received by mail or immediately if the application was made in person "

Lastly:
"A license to carry or possess firearms shall be valid, unless revoked or suspended, for a period of not more than 6 years from the date of issue and shall expire on the anniversary of the licensee's date of birth occurring not less than 5 years nor more than 6 years from the date of issue; provided, however, that, if the licensee applied for renewal before the license expired, the license shall remain valid after its expiration date for all lawful purposes until the application for renewal is approved or denied. "


In my opinion, sending it certified mail return receipt satisfies the written law. If you are paranoid you can videotape yourself stuffing the application into the envelope.

I am not a lawyer.

Cutting and pasting is nice and is a cute skill, and yes I can tell you are not a lawyer, but I like brocoli’s post better.

Thanks

 

[steve8140]

Comm2A should start another case of why we need a license to begin with. If they will not allow new applicants to hand in an applications or deal with renewals then It sounds like a strong case for our side. We should be able to ignore them and keep carrying. I’d throw more donations their way.

Not that most would care but we should also call/write your state reps and senators about rights and processes being violated.

 

[seanc]

I think we need to push out tax day to November 1 and possibly postpone the presidential election to next year.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Not buying that lame argument. You may think that is true but it is not.

Correct, The part about the state or PD apologizing is inaccurate.

 

[MisterHappy]

For all that are saying that, "It should not be that way!" Please see Rat's thread about getting his guns back.

And, mailing the LTC app to your PD does not constitute, "acceptance." It's when the info is entered into the computer system, so the receipt that give you a grace period can be generated.

In my city, we drop off the app, on any day. Only on Thursdays, between 9-12 and 1-3, pix and prints, and payment. That's when you can get it accepted. If you can't get to the PD during those hours....tough. My point is that dropping off the paperwork, or mailing it in, or whatever is not relevant - it's getting it into the system.

 

[308rifleman]

Sorry, we are kind of busy right now. All of your constitutional rights are temporarily suspended. Don't leave a message beep.

Just because you send it in, does not mean that they "accepted" it. There are several towns that will only accept an application on their terms.

I would wait the 40 days and then file a motion in court. Summons/complaint would be served on the department by a civil process deputy sheriff. More documentation to CYA.

 

[Uzi2]

For all that are saying that, "It should not be that way!" Please see Rat's thread about getting his guns back.

And, mailing the LTC app to your PD does not constitute, "acceptance." It's when the info is entered into the computer system, so the receipt that give you a grace period can be generated.

In my city, we drop off the app, on any day. Only on Thursdays, between 9-12 and 1-3, pix and prints, and payment. That's when you can get it accepted. If you can't get to the PD during those hours....tough. My point is that dropping off the paperwork, or mailing it in, or whatever is not relevant - it's getting it into the system.

Baloney. The law says nothing about acceptance, it says submitted.

 

[MisterHappy]

Yes. Submitted to the State. Not to the local PD.

You have to go through the locals, but it's a state-issued license. If it's in a heap on a desk in your local police station, it's not submitted.

 

[MisterHappy]

I would wait the 40 days and then file a motion in court. Summons/complaint would be served on the department by a civil process deputy sheriff. More documentation to CYA.

And....exactly how much are you willing to spend on this?

I appreciate your viewpoint, but it's not reality, in the DPRM

 

[mjbff]

Clearly you are not a grammar buff.



Good job woodsy. This is clearly the time for public servants to whine about doing their jobs and needing more money. Its not enough to finish your meal but you need to lick the plate too.

Thanks Professor

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Comm2A should start another case of why we need a license to begin with.

Comm2a is not in the business of tilting at windmills, or bringing cases that are doomed from the start. We go after the elephant one bite at a time ... trying to eat it all in one gulp will fail.

But, cases like "arguing a mail in application meets the submission requirement for the purposes of the grace period" could stand a chance.

I would love to find a case where adverse action was taken against someone who tried this renewal method and the PD claimed the application was never submitted because they did not accept it. But, as I mentioned previously, ain't gonna happen.

Another is someone who is denied the right to apply - but the state of emergency would probably be used by the court to find in favor of the PD. Better to wait for case where the dept imposes a multi-month delay on a routine basis.

Now, one I would like is a patient arrives at a Boston ER, police verify LTC status and take gun for safekeeping. Boston PD then keeps gun claiming they have to run ballistics on all guns taken in, and yours is on low priority backlog. First step is the attorney letter stating that running ballistics is a search of one's person, paper or effects and that permission is specifically NOT granted so a warrant must be obtained. They will either ignore that and proceed anyhow (setting up for a federal 4th amendment case), or get a warrant - in which case the course of action would depend on what logic the Boston PD would use to search a gun that was legally possessed and came into their possession under non-suspicious circumstances. The key here is "non-suspicious" .... this wouldn't stand much of a chance with a recovered stolen gun.

 

[308rifleman]

And....exactly how much are you willing to spend on this?

I appreciate your viewpoint, but it's not reality, in the DPRM

Filing fee and sheriff's fee for legal service. Gets it in front of a judge. Like I said, CYA. When in doubt, document, document, document! Lawyers and prosecutors dwell on documentation and small details. The more you have, the better!