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MA NFA Trust Notice - Big Issues
- Thread starter hicksonj
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Please don't pull the fire alarms and start running for the exits, but here is the issue. MA has no procedure for licensing entities, other than individuals. Corporations in MA, even Blackwater, are not allowed to take title to any firearms (unless they are FFLs). So, this means trusts of any kind cannot be licensed. If a trustee is licensed, then possession of the NFA item appears to be OK, even though they don't have title. The issue according to the CHSB's attorneys, in a nutshell, is registration by FA-10. MGL Chapter 140, as you know requires registration, and trusts are not licensees. There are many more parallel arguments here on many points, and both sides have more holes than Swiss cheese. This is simply information and not a suggestion or recommendation of any course of conduct. For legal advice, contact your trust attorney.
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Hmmm...lovely.
Why would any of this matter provided everyone listed in the trust is properly licensed? I think this is the ATF reading too far into state laws and not knowing what they're doing. The host gun is already registered via FA-10 so why do they care? I guess I could see if you were going to build a SBR from the ground up but then by MGL you would have to register it once it becomes functional anyway.
I would think that providing them a copy of the FA-10 showing that the host is registered in the trustees name would be enough to prove the MGL's have been satisfied. Sending them a copy of the LTC's of anyone listed in the trust paperwork should also help.
Why would any of this matter provided everyone listed in the trust is properly licensed? I think this is the ATF reading too far into state laws and not knowing what they're doing. The host gun is already registered via FA-10 so why do they care? I guess I could see if you were going to build a SBR from the ground up but then by MGL you would have to register it once it becomes functional anyway.
I would think that providing them a copy of the FA-10 showing that the host is registered in the trustees name would be enough to prove the MGL's have been satisfied. Sending them a copy of the LTC's of anyone listed in the trust paperwork should also help.
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Perhaps you could be more specific in your thread title and in your first post. This is a MA-only issue. I am about to pull the trigger on another Form 1 (NFA Trust) and, to me, this is hardly a "Big Issue."
With all due respect... I don't see why that would be the case. If the tax is paid and the person (trustee) is licensed, how can the possession be unlawful?
This is BATFE procedural BS, nothing more. It smells like they're looking for more excuses to deny transfers.
-Mike
I'll +1 that!
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
I think in the end they will probably ask for proof of registration (FA-10) to be filed along with the Form-1. Just like they now ask for proof of licensing (LTC-A). Not too long ago they didn't ask for that.
The attorney is holding firm that a trustee is not the titled owner of a NFA item in a trust. Therefore, it is an unlicensed entity that took title to a firearm. There are layers of trust law here that I need to sift through. Again, the ATF is just following MA's direction. I have shown you all recently how MA directs the ATF to disallow Forms 1-4.
IANAL...but
I run a mortgage company and this may provide some help:
It is not too uncommon for people to have their home in a trust. This means deeded to a trust and properly recorded at the registry as such. When you go to do a mortgage for a property whose deed is held in the name of the trust, it is perfectly acceptable as long as the trust meets 5 basic requirements:
1. The borrower or borrowers must be creator(s) of the trust. The creators of the trust are usually called the Grantor, Settlor or Trustor.
2. The borrower(s) must be the trustee(s) of the trust (or there must be an approved institutional trustee).
3. The trust must be revocable.
4. The borrower(s) must be the primary beneficiaries of the trust.
5. The trustee(s) must have the authority to borrow money and pledge the trust property as security.
A Trust Certification or Trust Abstract can be submitted in lieu of the entire Trust Agreement if all five of the elements are satisfied.
If all five elements are not shown in the Trust Certification or Trust Abstract, a copy of the Trust section reflecting the element(s) not covered in the Certification or Abstract should be sent along with Trust Certification or Trust Abstract for review.
I assume because these are "conforming loan" requirements that they come down from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac- which is essentially the Federal Government.
So in the mortgage situation, the trustees (borrowers) are in fact recognized by the Federal Government as the rightful owners of the real estate even though the deed (and title) is held in the name of a Trust, and as such are personally allowed to obtain the benefit ($$$) from a mortgage on the property by executing a Mortgage and Note with a lender.
Also, the Commonwealth of Mass Registry of Deeds has no problem recognizing and recording these same mortgages against property held in a Trust name when the trustees personally are obtaining the benefit/financing/$$$ directly.
So this would tend contradict the attorneys position that you mentioned above. Granted we are comparing Real Property and Personal Property, but I would think Real Property is much more sacred.
A mortgage broker telling an attorney who specializes in gun law and the ATF how to do his job.....
We are dealing with the MA AG's office here kids, the people who live for no other purpose than to make you a criminal one regulation and law at a time.
This popped up on the radar a couple of weeks ago IIRC when another NES'er had his application kicked back, now we have had a second incident where a NES'er has been denied.
This is big time troublesome for you MA residents. Bend over and grab your ankles.
We are dealing with the MA AG's office here kids, the people who live for no other purpose than to make you a criminal one regulation and law at a time.
This popped up on the radar a couple of weeks ago IIRC when another NES'er had his application kicked back, now we have had a second incident where a NES'er has been denied.
This is big time troublesome for you MA residents. Bend over and grab your ankles.
Actually, this is more of a BATFE issue, and further, it's not coming from the AG's office. (As much of a see you next tuesday frau coakley is, I don't think she has anything to do with this one, if what hicksonj posted above is correct... ) BATFE likely called up someone at EOPS to try to make this fail. (eg, let's dig and find excuses to block more NFA transfers). An inverse fishing expedition, if you will. BATFE loves to collude with anti gun state governments.
-Mike
Not telling anyone what to do.
I was only offering some input on how the Federal Gov and Mass treat property held in Trust. Absent tried and true laws with supporting cases, precedent can be established through other areas in order to support your position.
Szaino... equitable title and legal title is one layer here. I'm looking for a bottom to that rabbit hole.
Glockaholic... I need a good working relationship with our state agencies to be effective, no matter what differences I have with their legislation, interpretation, and hybrids thereof. I'm not going to shine the spotlight on an individual, since most of us know the players.
Glockaholic... I need a good working relationship with our state agencies to be effective, no matter what differences I have with their legislation, interpretation, and hybrids thereof. I'm not going to shine the spotlight on an individual, since most of us know the players.
F
Finalygotabeltfed
Hey, I just mistakenly posted http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1191085#post1191085 before realizing this was the place for it. Should I not even bother since it looks like this is going out the window anyways? Signoffs from your CLEO for a NFA item are still kosher right?
Yup personal forms are ok for now. Trusts are different animals all together with benefits beyond CLEO avoidance. I believe trusts will be re-OKed soon, but nothing moves fast at the ATF when states are involved.
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the day MA stops allowing CLEO signoffs for NFA machine guns etc will be the day I say "screw this state" altogether.
I have 3 NFA machine guns and am still waiting for my 4th and final MG F4 individual (M16) to transfer and I hope it goes through soon before this dumb ass state goes ahead and makes another stupid knee jerk reaction based on a "one time event" that NEVER, NEVER happens like the Westfield incident.
Rob
I have 3 NFA machine guns and am still waiting for my 4th and final MG F4 individual (M16) to transfer and I hope it goes through soon before this dumb ass state goes ahead and makes another stupid knee jerk reaction based on a "one time event" that NEVER, NEVER happens like the Westfield incident.
Rob
Don't know if this has any relation to what you wrote above - but I was told a couple of months ago that the BATFE is going around doing intense audits of all the gun shops in the area. Seems like somehow - somewhere, an edict has come down to start cracking down.
Yes, but I think the audits are only peripherally related. The audit cycle of BATFE is actually very long over all. (Their "goal" is to audit every dealer at least once in a span of 3 years). I think what has happened was that there are some new anti gun hacks working at the state level that are starting to stir up crap, and BATFE has taken note of this and has been more than eager to collude with these individuals to screw with gun owners as much as they can legally get away with. It's pretty much par for the course.
-Mike
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Well, here is my take. 28 years ago I decided that I would accumulate all the licenses that I needed to be legal and able to do whatever I wanted with firearms . This has worked for me. Granted, I hve always been in Green towns. If not, I would have moved. I have had several ATF audits with no issues because I keep my shit together. I firmly believe that any NFA transfer problems we have in Mass are caused by this state. I have never had contact with anyone from ATF who was not reasonable. Your results, of course, may vary. Jack.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
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