MA General Laws: CHAPTER 269, Section 10 and Private collage

[HarryPottar]

Looking for advice from the experts on here.

I know concealed is concealed, but need to stay within the law.

My eldest son (ex army medic) as started at the "New England College Of Optometry"

This is private collage and my understanding was that you could carry concealed at a private collage but not a state school or collage.

However, the following does not distinguish the difference between a state or private school, so is my understanding wrong.

The school as no posted firearms rules, he wants to carry but needs to stay within the law.

Thanks in advance

Harry

General Laws: CHAPTER 269, Section 10

Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph.
Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university that fails to report a violation of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than $500.

 

[PATRON]

I know that someone with more savy about this will correct me if I am wrong,but as far as I understand it a school is a school public,or private.So it would still be a no no.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This is private collage and my understanding was that you could carry concealed at a private collage but not a state school or collage.

This is incorrect. 269-10j does not differentiate between public and private colleges.

The only three workarounds are permission from the college; LE status or diplomatic immunity recognized by the US State Department.

As a general rule, you have a shot at permission only if you are visiting campus to arrange donation of a building or you are of such stature that your visit to the campus rates a press release. All others just get put on a "suspicious character" list for even asking.

 

[HarryPottar]

This is incorrect. 269-10j does not differentiate between public and private colleges.

The only three workarounds are permission from the college; LE status or diplomatic immunity recognized by the US State Department.

Thanks for the clarification Rob, disappointing but good to know the law.

Thanks
harry

 

[22lr]

I am no expert, but I am of the opinion that I would rather run the risk of getting in trouble than run the risk of getting killed. But that is just my opinion. Any 'gun free' zone is a target.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Thanks for the clarification Rob, disappointing but good to know the law.

Thanks
harry

As long as I am making your day - recent changes to MGL change this from a citable offense to an arrestable one.

 

[Individualist]

And the 2 years max punishment would also make you nationally PP for life, correct? Or does the potential punishment have to be for "more than 2 years"?

 

[HarryPottar]

I am no expert, but I am of the opinion that I would rather run the risk of getting in trouble than run the risk of getting killed. But that is just my opinion. Any 'gun free' zone is a target.

Normally I would agree, concealed is concealed and if this was a one off visit the risk might be worth it. However with the cost of this collage and the chance of expulsion plus loss of LTC, it's not worth the risk.

It's more for the travel to and from collage, to cut down on the cost, he moved back home and his traveling by commuter rail and T each day to Boston so it was more for that reason than protection while in the building itself.

He did three tours in Afghanistan, it's a shame he can not protect himself while commuting.

harry

 

[Sabougolden]

I am no expert, but I am of the opinion that I would rather run the risk of getting in trouble than run the risk of getting killed. But that is just my opinion. Any 'gun free' zone is a target.[/QUOTE]

^ this

 

[Len-2A Training]

It's not just the risk of "getting in trouble", let's look at what the possible penalties are:

- expulsion and black listing so education and career is toast!
- arrested and criminal record. This really helps on job applications too.
- certain loss of LTC permanently and with it the ability to protect yourself and family forever.
- possible jail sentence.

Having worked for an ivy league Boston area college PD some years ago I can tell you that expulsion is a certainty and black listing is a very distinct possibility.

He could always try to get permission to possess OC on campus from campus police. Better than nothing and for many encounters is probably all that is needed to get out of the danger zone.

 

[22lr]

It's not just the risk of "getting in trouble", let's look at what the possible penalties are:

- expulsion and black listing so education and career is toast!
- arrested and criminal record. This really helps on job applications too.
- certain loss of LTC permanently and with it the ability to protect yourself and family forever.
- possible jail sentence.

Having worked for an ivy league Boston area college PD some years ago I can tell you that expulsion is a certainty and black listing is a very distinct possibility.

He could always try to get permission to possess OC on campus from campus police. Better than nothing and for many encounters is probably all that is needed to get out of the danger zone.

And what does all that stuff matter if you are dead?

Gun doesn't come out of the holster unless death or serious bodily harm are immanent. In that scenario, getting 'outed' would be worth the cost, no? Unless the school puts students through metal detectors or does random frisk searches, than the risk may be worth the reward. To each his own though.

 

[MAJoe]

Delete.

 

[headednorth]

The mgl says "carries". Does that mean stored unloaded and in a locked case or trunk in a vehicle parked on the grounds of the school is permissible?

 

[Len-2A Training]

The mgl says "carries". Does that mean stored unloaded and in a locked case or trunk in a vehicle parked on the grounds of the school is permissible?

It used to mean that and "black letter of the law" still says that. However, Comm. v. Jason Whitehead case ruled differently and says no ammo/guns/etc. are allowed on campus property period. So it's a gray area now.

In this case, given that it is on Beacon St. in Boston, I doubt that there is any "campus parking" available to anyone.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It used to mean that and "black letter of the law" still says that. However, Comm. v. Jason Whitehead case ruled differently and says no ammo/guns/etc. are allowed on campus property period. So it's a gray area now.

The issue in Whitehead was a passing comment by the court that ammo is illegal on college campus. It was in the form of dicta rather than a finding, and no arguments on the issue were presented as it was not part of the case.

Any movement with a gun, even in the trunk of your car, is "Carry" under MGL. 269-10j uses the phrase "carry one one's person" which is distinct and different from "carry" in other sections of the 269, thus adding strength to the argument it means something.

BUT..... police are (in my speculative opinion, intentionally) trained "guns on campus are illegal" rather than "guns on ones person on campus are illegal". If you are found with a gun in the car, STFU, get a good attorney if you can afford it, and say nothing stupid like "I put the gun in the trunk when I got out of the car" (thus admitting to carry on one's person). Note that even beating the rap will have no bearing on institutional consequences.

I know of a case where someone was charged with 269-10j for a gun left in the passenger compartment of a car. The case was dismissed based on "on one's person"; the LTC returned and then..... the case was re-filed as a 140-131L storage violation, resulting in a 2 year CWOF (w/LTC ineligibility for that period of time).

- expulsion and black listing so education and career is toast!

It would be tough to blacklist someone except in an advanced degree program where eveyone knows everyone in the field and the issue of "certified transcript from your Masters" comes up as part of admission.

The real problem is the expelled student would have to make no reference to his time at XYZ college and thus could forget about transferring any credits.

 

[jhblaze1]

I miss Maine. At U Maine I lived in the dorms and we were allowed to give our guns to public safety and get a ticket as if it were a coat check so we could go hunting. I brought my shot gun to campus police and the guy was like nice gun, feel free to come get it any time of day. When I returned it after a few times the desk cop was like "hey, no one's going to really give a shit if you keep this in your dorm, just keep it put away so we don't get called out about it".

 

[M1911]

Normally I would agree, concealed is concealed and if this was a one off visit the risk might be worth it. However with the cost of this collage and the chance of expulsion plus loss of LTC, it's not worth the risk.

That would be the least of your worries. It would be a felony conviction, lifetime prohibited person, and jail time.

 

[M1911]

In MA, 99% chance you're going to jail if you use a firearm for self defense.

That is not true.

 

[Idoktr]

As a graduate of NECO and member of the profession. If he is found guilty of any felony, his license to practice will be permenantly revoked...........FYI

 

[CaseHardened]

Can they CC here ?

 

[Len-2A Training]

That would be the least of your worries. It would be a felony conviction, lifetime prohibited person, and jail time.

Better read the law again, I did today and it is an arrestable misdemeanor with a 2 yr potential sentence.

As a graduate of NECO and member of the profession. If he is found guilty of any felony, his license to practice will be permenantly revoked...........FYI

True this.

 

[GPP]

It used to mean that and "black letter of the law" still says that. However, Comm. v. Jason Whitehead case ruled differently and says no ammo/guns/etc. are allowed on campus property period. So it's a gray area now.

In this case, given that it is on Beacon St. in Boston, I doubt that there is any "campus parking" available to anyone.

I dont see how Whitehead is applicable here. Ive also yet to find the no guns/ammo/etc on campus property period cite.
The precedents set in regards to 1A and 4A in Whitehead are so disgustingly far reaching its not funny, but that case does not deal with a properly stored firearm on school property.
I get the better safe VS sorry thought process Len, its too bad tho. The concerns of being "black listed" or put on Rob Bs "suspicious charecter " list would probably prevent the OP from telling his kid to launch an interoggative at the campus cops in search of an option that allows him to at least carry to and from school.

 

[milktree]

I know of a case where someone was charged with 269-10j for a gun left in the passenger compartment of a car. The case was dismissed based on "on one's person"; the LTC returned and then..... the case was re-filed as a 140-131L storage violation, resulting in a 2 year CWOF (w/LTC ineligibility for that period of time).

How is this not double jeopardy?

 

[CrackPot]

How is this not double jeopardy?

He was not tried and acquitted. The charges were dropped and refiled. totally different...

 

[Rob Boudrie]

How is this not double jeopardy?

Charging for a different crime, blus there was no trial on the first charge. It's sort of like being found innocent of state murder charges and then being charged with violating someone's civil rights by killing them.

There were clear issues regarding the search warrant, however, the judge started the case by announcing he did not want to hear any arguments regarding the warrant.

I dont see how Whitehead is applicable here. Ive also yet to find the no guns/ammo/etc on campus property period cite.

It was a comment in passing the court made, not the decision. The court mentioned "ammo on campus is illegal" without qualification, but the finding was that he carried the gun on his person. It would be a good issue to litigate if someone is charged, but hard to proactively litigate.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I dont see how Whitehead is applicable here. Ive also yet to find the no guns/ammo/etc on campus property period cite.
The precedents set in regards to 1A and 4A in Whitehead are so disgustingly far reaching its not funny, but that case does not deal with a properly stored firearm on school property.
I get the better safe VS sorry thought process Len, its too bad tho. The concerns of being "black listed" or put on Rob Bs "suspicious charecter " list would probably prevent the OP from telling his kid to launch an interoggative at the campus cops in search of an option that allows him to at least carry to and from school.

The beliefs of an appellate case (even though not "law") could be cited in a subsequent case or used by an "industrious" DA to unjustly jack someone up. Thus the caution.

When you apply to a college, they want all past transcripts and likely will want to know about any "gaps". Explaining why you were expelled from one college may not play well with another college, even if there isn't some common database they can tap (no idea, but with computerization these days . . . ).

I'm not sure how a school would take a student request like that, but given that it is Boston and likely NECO doesn't have armed security, I doubt that it would be a welcome request.

I did make such a request back in the late 1970s but only because I had nothing to lose: I was no longer a student at NU, I was an alumni officer attending numerous events on campus during the year, my Wife was going to grad school there and I usually picked her up late at night in a very high crime area (NU police were unarmed back then IIRC) and I was well known to the NU president, a few VPs, campus police chief, etc. so I figured that I had a shot at it. I got a "hell no" letter from the campus police chief. But sometime later when I ran into the NU president he asked me why I sent him such a request (this was probably a few years later, so it was important enough for him to remember) and I explained the MGL to him. At any rate shortly after my request I joined the PD and carried at NU with immunity.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

When you apply to a college, they want all past transcripts and likely will want to know about any "gaps".

Yeah, but it's not exactly an extended EBI; just be careful of social media.

 

[kalash]

Does carrying in a post office have the same repercussions or different?

In MA, 99% chance you're going to jail if you use a firearm for self defense.

Source please.

 

[MAJoe]

No source, feel free to adjust %.

Can someone post a case where someone used their firearm for self defense in MA and was not arrested? I honestly haven't seen a case.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Does carrying in a post office have the same repercussions or different?

Source please.

18 USC 44 S.930(a)

No source, feel free to adjust %.

Can someone post a case where someone used their firearm for self defense in MA and was not arrested? I honestly haven't seen a case.

Yes, I have read some stories in MA where the person wasn't arrested, but it still is a better than 50/50 chance of an arrest and charges. Since I don't track cases, I can't cite them but I'm sure that Rob Boudrie will be along shortly to do so.