LAPD 'top shot' officer sued for shooting, killing man who advanced with a 'box cutter'

Just remember how effective the box cutter was when Gus killed Victor. No fair using Google to look up the reference.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
I think the only thing that can play against her is shooting him when he was down.

Distance on camera, not an issue, you can show the Jury how close she really was using a measuring tape.

Training- she is a god damn cop, their job is to be properly trained on using guns. But I can see how a bunch of morons could see it as a engstive. Her lawyer will have to really s*ck to not be able to tall her out of that. You could argue her training helped her not hit "civilians".

A big positive; she is a woman, and not a big woman, young and innocent looking. And she has the Union behind her.
Click to expand...

The guy jumped up like Freddy Krueger after the first two rounds knocked him down. She was probably a little freaked out.
 
Blades the size of the ones in boxcutters have done some serious damage behind the walls in prisons and jails. In the UK public too. She'll get vilified. Question is will the Chief and mayor stand by her or auto firing to follow once the mob really digs in. Seemed like a good shoot.
 
desertr8der said:
Blades the size of the ones in boxcutters have done some serious damage behind the walls in prisons and jails. In the UK public too. She'll get vilified. Question is will the Chief and mayor stand by her or auto firing to follow once the mob really digs in. Seemed like a good shoot.
Click to expand...
And her sponsors. I wonder what will happen to those.
 
alx said:
She could have paid a bit more money and get a better chin pull face job. I know her kind.

I know I am the minority here, but I watched the video and I believe that her choice of shooting distance is at best questionable and at worst- blood thirsty. The guy had a box cutter, not anything remotely capable of hurting anybody at the distance she opened fire. Couple more seconds of yelling and persuasion might have been enough To save a life. Maybe not. Who knows. I personally would have engaged him at much closer distance.

At least the video is of good quality so I am sure the justice will prevail either way.
Click to expand...
That life didn't need to be saved. But yeah, she should have stayed at the low ready and screamed him down.
 
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Wickedcoolname said:
Box cutter. Yet another term that annoys me. Back when many people had some trade skills that tool was known as a utility knife. The term 'box cutter' was used by unskilled laborers who worked in warehouses and department stores. But ever since 9/11 the news reporters constantly called them box cutters. Big deal, right?
Well, it kind of is. I think it is an example of the gulf that exists between blue collar people who grew up working in a skilled trade vs. some white collar people who's only physical job may have been after school working in a store.
Any carpenter or plumber or drywaller or electrician knows it's a utility knife. But most shelf stocker's would call it a box cutter.
Box cutter doesn't sound all that dangerous to some, but a razor knife or utility knife has more of a weapon sounding name.
If I were defending the cop I'd always refer to it as a utility knife or razor knife.
Click to expand...
It's the same damn blade.

Unless you have one of those "safety" boxcutters that is dull AF, has no sharp point, and doesn't accept standard utility knife blades. Don't get me started on what occupational safety lawyers have wrought...
 
alx said:
She could have paid a bit more money and get a better chin pull face job. I know her kind.

I know I am the minority here, but I watched the video and I believe that her choice of shooting distance is at best questionable and at worst- blood thirsty. The guy had a box cutter, not anything remotely capable of hurting anybody at the distance she opened fire. Couple more seconds of yelling and persuasion might have been enough To save a life. Maybe not. Who knows. I personally would have engaged him at much closer distance.

At least the video is of good quality so I am sure the justice will prevail either way.
Click to expand...
Did you notice how many shots it took to bring the guy down?

Do you realize cameras makes people and things appear farther away than they really are?

There was no way for her to know how sharp, big or small that blade was. A blade is a blade.

Did you miss the other cop video where the woman let the guy get too close and it took something like 10 shots and clearing a jam to kill him?

Real life is not a movie, people dont instantly die with one shot to the gut. A person f*cked up on drugs can cover 10-15' in a second. So what is an acceptable distance? 16'? 20'? 5'?
 
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I’m no psychologist, but we were always taught that suicidal people also equates to homicidal behavior. Meaning if they can’t or think someone will stop them from killing themselves, they will try to kill someone else nearby to force their own death at the hands of someone else. IE suicide by cop.

She had what appears to be a clear backdrop at the time she fired, he was moving quickly in her direction, and as we see often, pistol rounds aren’t the best at stopping a charging attacker, so why give him more of a chance to get on top of you?

Because it’s not fair he only had a blade and she had a gun?? Bullshit.

Because either he didn’t speak English or she didn’t speak Spanish?? Bullshit. Not her job or responsibility to learn new languages. It’s common knowledge worldwide that if any countries police is pointing a firearm at you and yelling at you in any language as you run at them with a blade in your hand, that they’re telling you to stop and drop the knife and no matter how stupid someone may be they still know that by an adult age.

There were many other people all around this event that if he then turned and ran at, her shots could then easily miss a running suspect and strike a bystander, or miss altogether and he shreds a bystander with the box cutter, or takes away her ability to fire because of a victim or three that’re too close to him and takes away her shot.

Box cutters will absolutely filet human skin, muscle tissue and artery’s. I’ve seen it, many times. It is ugly and deadly what a 2”-3” razor blade can do.

Someone ^^^ thinks she’s guilty and bloodthirsty because they think she had plastic surgery and they know her type? WTF?? This to me negates anything further they say on the matter IMO. Maybe she had a bad scar as a kid and wanted it fixed, or a hundred other reasons, regardless not one of them has a single thing to do with the situation.

As for all the commands, instructions and decision making we can hear in the video between the cops, that sounds to me like a couple very young cops falling back on their training and actually slowing things down in their head and doing it all by the numbers, just how they’ve been taught. Might be a little painful to listen to the confusion but they’re actually communicating with each other in a very high stress situation which is exactly how it needs to be done instead of screaming and running around in different directions panicking.

It’s horrible that she had to kill somebody, but that comes with the line of work, sometimes you just aren’t given another choice in the matter.

This young lady is what, about 5’4”, maybe 120lbs, with no military experience that I know of to fall back on, possibly her first up close life or death situation she’s dealing with and she stayed fairly calm, communicated well and handled it the way she was taught.

By contrast and example, I’m 6’ 180lbs, special operations combat veteran and had a suicidal guy with razor blades chicken wired to his hands in a suicide by cop attempt who just missed slitting my throat by about 3” one day. We handled it accordingly, and he then slit his own throat right in front of me. But I’ll tell you my ass was puckered up for about a f***ing week after that.

Pretty? Ugly? Great shooter? YouTube personality? None of that has one thing to do with anything here.
She handled this attack as she was trained to do and she survived. It’s that simple.
 
GettyImages-1161124.0.jpg


Box cutters...
 
cams said:
I’m no psychologist, but we were always taught that suicidal people also equates to homicidal behavior. Meaning if they can’t or think someone will stop them from killing themselves, they will try to kill someone else nearby to force their own death at the hands of someone else. IE suicide by cop.

She had what appears to be a clear backdrop at the time she fired, he was moving quickly in her direction, and as we see often, pistol rounds aren’t the best at stopping a charging attacker, so why give him more of a chance to get on top of you?

Because it’s not fair he only had a blade and she had a gun?? Bullshit.

Because either he didn’t speak English or she didn’t speak Spanish?? Bullshit. Not her job or responsibility to learn new languages. It’s common knowledge worldwide that if any countries police is pointing a firearm at you and yelling at you in any language as you run at them with a blade in your hand, that they’re telling you to stop and drop the knife and no matter how stupid someone may be they still know that by an adult age.

There were many other people all around this event that if he then turned and ran at, her shots could then easily miss a running suspect and strike a bystander, or miss altogether and he shreds a bystander with the box cutter, or takes away her ability to fire because of a victim or three that’re too close to him and takes away her shot.

Box cutters will absolutely filet human skin, muscle tissue and artery’s. I’ve seen it, many times. It is ugly and deadly what a 2”-3” razor blade can do.

Someone ^^^ thinks she’s guilty and bloodthirsty because they think she had plastic surgery and they know her type? WTF?? This to me negates anything further they say on the matter IMO. Maybe she had a bad scar as a kid and wanted it fixed, or a hundred other reasons, regardless not one of them has a single thing to do with the situation.

As for all the commands, instructions and decision making we can hear in the video between the cops, that sounds to me like a couple very young cops falling back on their training and actually slowing things down in their head and doing it all by the numbers, just how they’ve been taught. Might be a little painful to listen to the confusion but they’re actually communicating with each other in a very high stress situation which is exactly how it needs to be done instead of screaming and running around in different directions panicking.

It’s horrible that she had to kill somebody, but that comes with the line of work, sometimes you just aren’t given another choice in the matter.

This young lady is what, about 5’4”, maybe 120lbs, with no military experience that I know of to fall back on, possibly her first up close life or death situation she’s dealing with and she stayed fairly calm, communicated well and handled it the way she was taught.

By contrast and example, I’m 6’ 180lbs, special operations combat veteran and had a suicidal guy with razor blades chicken wired to his hands in a suicide by cop attempt who just missed slitting my throat by about 3” one day. We handled it accordingly, and he then slit his own throat right in front of me. But I’ll tell you my ass was puckered up for about a f***ing week after that.

Pretty? Ugly? Great shooter? YouTube personality? None of that has one thing to do with anything here.
She handled this attack as she was trained to do and she survived. It’s that simple.
Click to expand...


I'm especially impressed with how she had the presence of mind to drop her muzzle as her partner passed in front of her. After everything she just went through, safe firearms handling was still unconsciously present.

This seems like a 100% clear-cut case of suicide by cop, and a good shoot.
 
amm5061 said:
I'm especially impressed with how she had the presence of mind to drop her muzzle as her partner passed in front of her.
Click to expand...
I'm especially unimpressed with how her partner couldn't be bothered
to walk behind her while she's covering a suicidal maniac.

They had the presence of mind to tell Dispatch to send mobile units
so that they didn't approach from downrange. And then he flounces in front of her.
Not her fault.


She's lucky she was on-target with her follow-up shots while the guy was down.
Really easy to skip rounds off of the pavement towards the idiot spectators
lined up against the building down the street like ducks in a shooting gallery.
They only started moving, like molasses in January, after the shooting started.
 
AHM said:
I'm especially unimpressed with how her partner couldn't be bothered
to walk behind her while she's covering a suicidal maniac.

They had the presence of mind to tell Dispatch to send mobile units
so that they didn't approach from downrange. And then he flounces in front of her.
Not her fault.
Click to expand...

Ya I was yelling at my screen when I saw him do that too. Idiot.

That’s exactly what happened with my guy that tried to cut my throat. I had 2 rookies with me, weapons drawn, and they were panicky AF, yelling into the radio and such for no need except they didn’t know what else to do. Hell there’s 3 of us there, yelling into the radio ain’t gonna solve the problem at hand so STFU and let’s work it.

One of them was actually screaming into the radio “he’s got a gun!” (That was me with my gun drawn-our SP just had the razors). Total panic.
I was like “Jesus help me and save me I f***ing hate rookies” in my mind. Told them both to holster their goddamn weapons and calm down and I would take lethal if needed.

After they holstered up I gave them instructions to close in and secure the guy who was now on his knees bleeding out, and one of them walked directly in front of me and just stopped there frozen.

I had to break my grip and sights, do a quick sidestep and then reach out and put my hand on her shoulder/upper arm and physically push her the f*** out of my way while yelling at her to wake the f*** up and secure this guy who still had both hands wrapped in razor blades with chicken wire like Freddy f***ing Krueger.

But yes this young lady here I believe did herself proud how she handled herself.
 
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cams said:
Ya I was yelling at my screen when I saw him do that too. Idiot.
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Thanks, Cams. I appreciate you see what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.
I'm not an operating operator, I've never lived it.

I think I remember my father started to recognize
circular firing squads in police shows on TV.
Which means I've had like four decades to mull over
those bad examples in popular fiction,
and lightly reinforce that it's a Bad Idea.
 
AHM said:
Thanks, Cams. I appreciate you see what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.
I'm not an operating operator, I've never lived it.

I think I remember my father started to recognize
circular firing squads in police shows on TV.
Which means I've had like four decades to mull over
those bad examples in popular fiction,
and lightly reinforce that it's a Bad Idea.
Click to expand...

No worries my friend, nothing wrong with calling out stupid, lazy or just plain bad form when you see it.
 
Pyromancer said:
Meanwhile, this poor sob gets blasted by the cops for answering the door at night (not knowing it's the cops) with a gun.

www.google.com

It started as a noise complaint. It ended in another fatal Phoenix police shooting

The episode is one in a string of Phoenix police shootings and has reignited criticism from advocates.
www.google.com
Click to expand...
Plenty of fail to go around in that story.
  1. Ex-neighbor knocks on the door for help (couch to sleep on?) in the middle of night because she'd been fighting with her boyfriend. (This sets the stage for downstream violence by the boyfriend some day, looking for his girlfriend in places where she might be camped out. It's the human equivalent of the old story about the guy throwing dynamite into the lake to catch fish, only to have a dog retrieve the stick and chase after his master as the fuse burns down...).
  2. Time passes, someone knocks on the door in the middle of the night, but no one is there when the door is opened. WTF? Mistaken address, prank, warning by neighbor to keep down the noise, troll by ex-neighbor's estranged boyfriend to lure hosts out of apartment for a fight...?
  3. A few days pass. Up late making noise playing Crash Bandicoot video game. Neighbor phones in noise complaint to the police, cops knock on door.
Interpreted in the most favorable light,
the victim's New Cunning Plan to handle a late night door knock,
is to skin that smokewagon and open the door
without looking through the peephole.

Because any prankster,
or neighbor pissed off at noise,
or ex-neighbor's cranky boyfriend,
will like, totally, back the F off
when he brandishes flourishes his handgun.
 
AHM said:
Plenty of fail to go around in that story.
  1. Ex-neighbor knocks on the door for help (couch to sleep on?) in the middle of night because she'd been fighting with her boyfriend. (This sets the stage for downstream violence by the boyfriend some day, looking for his girlfriend in places where she might be camped out. It's the human equivalent of the old story about the guy throwing dynamite into the lake to catch fish, only to have a dog retrieve the stick and chase after his master as the fuse burns down...).
  2. Time passes, someone knocks on the door in the middle of the night, but no one is there when the door is opened. WTF? Mistaken address, prank, warning by neighbor to keep down the noise, troll by ex-neighbor's estranged boyfriend to lure hosts out of apartment for a fight...?
  3. A few days pass. Up late making noise playing Crash Bandicoot video game. Neighbor phones in noise complaint to the police, cops knock on door.
Interpreted in the most favorable light,
the victim's New Cunning Plan to handle a late night door knock,
is to skin that smokewagon and open the door
without looking through the peephole.

Because any prankster,
or neighbor pissed off at noise,
or ex-neighbor's cranky boyfriend,
will like, totally, back the F off
when he brandishes flourishes his handgun.
Click to expand...

I think the cops purposefully quartered away from the peephole so the vic couldn't see them.

I cant speak for the mentally Ill but when people brandish guns (in this kind of context) I'm at least somewhat puckered up
 
Pyromancer said:
I think the cops purposefully quartered away from the peephole so the vic couldn't see them.

I cant speak for the mentally Ill but when people brandish guns (in this kind of context) I'm at least somewhat puckered up
Click to expand...
I can believe that Best Practice is to never stand in front of a door
that someone may shoot through,
even on a "routine" call (<- no such thing, I'm sure).


But they'd be pretty naive to expect someone to open an apartment door
in the middle of the night, just because a disembodied voice says "Police".
Or "Candygram".

There's got to be a contingency plan for identifying themselves
to a skeptical homeowner.
(But I won't be surprised if the encounter was "simpler" than that).
 
Pyromancer said:
I think the cops purposefully quartered away from the peephole so the vic couldn't see them.

I cant speak for the mentally Ill but when people brandish guns (in this kind of context) I'm at least somewhat puckered up
Click to expand...
Puckered?

You mean clenched.
 
he problem with the Tueller Drill is it assumes a competent, motivated attacker
Click to expand...

Try to read the motivation of someone on meth. The dispense was said to be about thirty feet. That can be closed in about two seconds. After one, the chance of the handgun rounds stopping the suspect is dropping as seen by him taking two rounds and still getting up.

So should the suspect be permitted to get so close that any means will fail to stop a determined attack?
 

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