Kaboom with a 1911

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rscalzo

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We had a somewhat disturbing incident today at out monthly tactical practice session.

One of the regulars was on the line with his Dan Wesson 1911. One of the first shots fired sounded odd, then BOOM and parts started coming off.

Turned out either he had a out of battery denotation or due to the unsupported section of brass, the bottom blew out jest ahead of the rim. This round set off the next round in the magazine. The trigger assembly blew apart, as did the grip panels. No idea what else was damaged internally but thankfully no injuries, just frayed nerves...
 
One of the first shots fired sounded odd, then BOOM and parts started coming off.
Click to expand...

Sure the gun was out of battery? It also sounds like a squib lodging a bullet in the barrel, causing a detonation with the second shot.
 
In my experience with my 1911.... a squib load won't cycle the action to chamber another round. I've had two "light" loads- both times the bullets exited the barrel and hit the target.. but the slide didn't cycle.

Of course YMMV and I use stock recoil springs. [wink]
 
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1911s generally survive this sort of thing nicely, though the magazine, grips and trigger bow are often trashed. The exception is the Les Baer which in both personally observed experience, and according to the words of Les, total self destruction is the norm. Of course, that is to be expected from 1141 hot rolled plate steel (no, I do not know if his current "forged" frames are made of this material; only that the one I had metallurgically analyzed that blew up was).
 
Not a squib. The case has the bottom half blown out in the unsupported section. The slide did not function to any great degree. As of now, I don't think it was an out of battery detonation but a blown out case. I didn't remember to look at the case's head stamp but usually this person uses decent ammo and brass.
 
Scrivener said:
Sure the gun was out of battery? It also sounds like a squib lodging a bullet in the barrel, causing a detonation with the second shot.
Click to expand...

My FFL had a Para-Ordnance come back in with a split barrel for something similar. His opinion was that the shooter had a squib, did not realize it and fired another round behind it which split the top of the barrel big time and left a bulge in the bottom of the barrel just in front of the chamber area. AFAIK, no other damage was found.
 
shooter had a squib
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This incident was not a squib. The case was blown out in the unsupported area which is not indicative of a squib failure. If it were a squib, another round would have been fed into the chamber which was not the case. Beyond that, several long time shooters and two dealers inspected the firearm.
 
rscalzo said:
Not a squib. The case has the bottom half blown out in the unsupported section.
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And yet NOT an out-of-battery accident? I didn't think there were 1911's with unsupported chambers.

Isn't that what Glocks are [famous] for? [wink]

At least all concerned kept their full complement of eyes, hands and fingers....
 
And yet NOT an out-of-battery accident
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If it were an out of battery detonation the case would have shown signs on damage or bulging around the circumference of the base. This case did not. It had a section of the case blown out which amounted to approximately 25 percent. It looked like someone took a hacksaw and cut a section out.

In any case, it the owner so desires he can easily repair the firearm with a few replacement pieces if he so desires. At this time he wasn't so fond of the firearm.

My opinion at this point is the incident was probably due to the ammo. I believe he was shooting his reloads and he is experienced in that area but possibly a weak case. Probably never know.
 
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JonJ said:
I had a case separation in my service pistol. http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6071&highlight=federal
Luckily, the only thing that happened was the brass got stuck in the chamber.

Glad to hear that your shooter wasn't hurt.
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Jon,

I had the same thing happen in a Glock 23 that I used to have. I persued it with Federal and Glock and found out that the very early Federal brass was weak in that area. They sent me four new 20-round boxes of ammo in way of apology.
 
ThomLB said:
What exactly is a squib?
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A squib is where an insufficiently charged round pushes a bullet into, but not out of, a barrel. It remains there, obstructing the barrel. When the next (fully charged) shot starts moving through the barrel, it encounters the blockage, leading to rapid unplanned disassembly of the gun and component parts.
 
ThomLB said:
What exactly is a squib?
Click to expand...

A squib load is one with no powder or insufficient powder to expel the bullet out of the bore and it gets lodged within the bore.

Many people do not know what it is when it happens because they have never been taught what to look for, then they rack another round into the chamber and fire the gun with an obstructed barrel, blowing the gun up in their hands.

The incident in the original post sounds more like an over charged round than an out of battery detonation.
A round that detonates out of battery will most often blow the brass apart sending pieces of it out the ejection port, not just vent at a specific point on the circumference of the case.

I can't type as fast as the post above.....but you get the drift.
 
I didn't get a chance to talk to the gun's owner to ask what powder he was using and the type of press. I've been using a slower burning powder in my 45 and 40 loads so a double charge with my Dillon would send the powder charge over the top. Somewhat of a safety feature for possible inattention.
 
Squib

Ah! Thanks, I actually never knew there was a word to describe it. I saw a S&W 38 that a friend of mine was working on a few years back, believe it or not, it had 8 bullets stuck in the barrel. Not only did the idiot empty the cylinder, but he put two more in it before he realized nothing came out the opposite end! When my friend removed the bullets, he sent the gun to S&W and the barrel was in perfect conditon.
I often wonder if the guy did that again?
 
ThomLB said:
Ah! Thanks, I actually never knew there was a word to describe it. I saw a S&W 38 that a friend of mine was working on a few years back, believe it or not, it had 8 bullets stuck in the barrel. Not only did the idiot empty the cylinder, but he put two more in it before he realized nothing came out the opposite end! When my friend removed the bullets, he sent the gun to S&W and the barrel was in perfect conditon.
I often wonder if the guy did that again?
Click to expand...

Years ago, when Dan Wesson was really Dan Wesson (in Monson) and GOAL had its own gun show as part of its annual meeting, DW had a .357 revolver on display. The cretin owner had, as above, emptied the cylinder in an 8" barrel.

DW had milled 1/3 of the barrel and shroud away, revealing a cross-section of same - with six bullets neatly lined up, nose to tail, therein. [rolleyes]
 
And yet NOT an out-of-battery accident? I didn't think there were 1911's with unsupported chambers.
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There is generally a little bit of unsupported chanber, though it may include only the part with the extraction rim. Just drop a case into your barrel outside the gun, and compare the ruptured part of the case to the part of the case you can see with a fresh round dropped into the chamber.

Weak brass happens, especially with reloading. I once had a piece of 40S&S brass fail in a 1911oid gun - the case rim extraced, and the rest of the brass remained in the chamber (no gun damage though).
 
This is why I use Pachmayer grips with steel panel inserts. Before I installed the low powder indicator on my Dillion 550 I loaded a round with just enough powder to stick bullet half way down the barrel, eject the round and load a fresh round in the chamber. Thankfully I had the presence of mind unload and check.
 

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