And that's where I think the problem lies. Not in the equipment they're carrying, but in the behavior that the police exhibit. Searching everyone for a community fireworks exhibition is absolute overkill. I'd rather have a police officer just standing watch over a celebration watching for crime or trouble with full riot gear and a submachine gun rather than an officer armed with only a billy club and Mace overaggressively searching everyone without cause.
-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
july 3rd fireworks
- Thread starter brew3x
- Start date
That's overkill.
You keep trying to equate LEO armament to citizen rights. I will agree with you if, using the very same justification you're using for arming LEO's, I can carry the exact same armament at the exact same times and places. Otherwise, you're just enabling one group and disabling the other, so don't try to link them.
I didn't really have a problem with the evil black rifles or the searches it just seemed out of place. I live one town over and the Leo's there are always showing off new gear that seems unnecessary. Does a town of 25 thousand people really need a Mobile command center, prisoner transport, k9 unit, tinted windows " by the way that cost 30k for all the vehicles". I can understand the rifles but some of this stuff seems unnecessary and a waste of tax dollars.
That's one of the resons that I ran for RTM in my town. So I can have a say on how they spend money. I might not get the vote in my favor, but at least I can stand up and speak my mind before everyone votes...and then again by my vote.
That seems overly absurd to me. I was at the Walpole fireworks on the same night. As you may know Walpole borders Sharon. There were not any cops with rifles. I was not searched to watch the fireworks. My wife and son and his stroller were not searched. I do not believe I was any less safe than those who watched Sharon's display.
RTM? Really Tough Mother? Regional Trout Manipulator? Reputable Tree Motivator?
I guess its time for me to throw in my two cents... All of which comes from my experience, there are no firewroks were I currently work, however the town I worked for prior to this did have them...
And yes, every bag, blacket, cooler, wagon, etc was searched (and we "wanded" people as needed) Signs were posted all over advising of searches and listing prohibitted items (not unlike entering most sports/concert venues). The unfortunately reality is if you want to make sure you have a "community fireworks exhibition" as a community/family event, someone needs to make sure the knives/booze/ and yes guns aren't getting into it...That still doesn't stop a little fist fight or two, but it cuts way down on the "news worthy" events...
The real problem is not so much the ussual "townie A-holes", we know them, but these "community" events attract A-holes from all over who could care less about your community, and honestly I think some come just looking for trouble.
I know Sharon isn't Brockton (ie 2 shootings & some stabbings at the fair this weekend) and it isn't even Plymouth (what did JonJ say 30 arrests) but stuff goes down every where...
Now as for the PD and AR's...I am curious if every officer was slinging em? If so then yeah that seems "over kill" to me and actually a bit of a problem for officers (its hard enough to break up a good size brawl let alone trying to do it while controling that AR you got slung). But if only a handful had them then I could possibly understand that...
namedpipes
NES Member
Sorry, I disagree that the town has the right to tell NOT to lawfully carry a concealed weapon while I'm watching the fireworks from the town common, etc.
The TOWN is not a private business, which DOES have that right.
I'm sure someone will pop up saying "But YES, they CAN and here is the law...". To which I will in advance say: Phooey. We've already seen time and again that the state/town/whatever can do as they like, including pissing on our lawns (something I witnessed a few weeks ago). Doesn't make it right.
Do you honestly think it was "licensees" we were concerned about? I highly doubt the shooters/cutters two days ago at the brockton fair, were licensed...
This is what I find interesting about this board, there will be one thread about "2 shot at brockton fair" and "we" have pages of discussion of how "dangerous" it is. Then there will be this thread, in which a town (not far from brockton) takes steps to ensure thier event remains controled and officers prepared, and "we" call it overkill or a "police state"...
If Sharon had been Brockton, I seriously doubt there'd be much of a discussion.
"Move it along. Nothing to see here. No talking. Enjoy the fireworks. Let's see that stroller. Open your cooler. Happy 4th."
namedpipes
NES Member
Are you going to say that the signs YOU mentioned said (in small print) that LTC holders were exempt from the rule prohibiting weapons?
To answer your question, though, YES OF COURSE I honestly believe it was ALSO licensees you were concerned about.
Mobile extermination unit
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Exactly... I can buy the argument that owners of private property have a right to refuse service/access to anyone (and thus say "no guns allowed"....
In a public gathering I don't buy it...
upStomp
NES Member
"Move it along. Nothing to see here. No talking. Enjoy the fireworks. Let's see that stroller. Open your cooler. Happy 4th."
"...but get a permit first."
+1 for the "this is conditioning" crowd. Not that conditioning is always a bad thing. How many of us wouldn't love to start (legally) open carrying in Mass, if only to encourage and educate others regarding responsible firearms ownership.
I think that's the difference here between the 2A crowd and the militarization of our police force. IMHO, the authorities are conditioning the masses to be subservient, while those of us who cherish freedom would like to see the masses show a bit of backbone and take responsibility for their own safety.
With that said, I also agree that this would be a bit easier to take if the rest of us were also allowed to walk around with EBR's.
I refuse to advocate restricting rights in the name of safety. I don't see this as contradictory to complaining about how dangerous a town might be. I'm sure most people on this board would agree that if every decent citizen in Brockton were carrying a firearm things would be much different.
You can't control stupid. You can't control homicidal maniacs. What does having officers walking around searching everyone and wielding heavy weapons get us?
You know... besides 'control'.
![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
The only reason I can think that the searches were made was because they could be. Access was limited in Sharon from what I understand. In Plymouth searches could not be made because the venue is wide open. There are no controlled access points. How well do you think it would go over if the police walked through the crowd and randomly searched coolers, strollers, pack packs, etc?
I'm getting tired of being subjected to or threatened with searches in public places in the name of safety.
As for the ARs. Maybe there was a threat that the public was not privy to or the COP wanted to show the taxpayers "their tax dollars at work".
There's a time and place for everything.
I'm getting tired of being subjected to or threatened with searches in public places in the name of safety.
As for the ARs. Maybe there was a threat that the public was not privy to or the COP wanted to show the taxpayers "their tax dollars at work".
There's a time and place for everything.
Doesn’t Sharon have a high Jewish population?
Doesn’t Sharon have two Islamic Mosques on its borders?
Did every police officer have an AR slung on their shoulder, or only a select few?
Did every police detail have a cruiser parked beside them? [Getting back to a cruiser to get a long gun in a mob scene “when you need it” can waste lives unnecessarily! Many places (major events) I’ve been, cruisers are parked maybe ¼ mile away from the officers . . . too far to run when “you really need something NOW”.]
My understanding is that more people attend the Sharon fireworks than live in the town. If true, a small town department certainly must be pro-active to AVOID incidents . . . they certainly wouldn’t have the assets required to RESPOND to an incident after the fact due to the size of the force, size of the crowd of innocents, logistics of getting LE to the scene in such a mob (and cars parked everywhere making streets narrower than normal), etc.
Were they dressed like the picture shown above (looking like Military in the sandbox) or in standard uniforms with a rifle slung over the shoulder? If the latter, do you feel intimidated when looking at pictures of Israeli police or soldiers . . . all of whom seem to have ARs with them? I can’t speak for others, but to me the demeanor of police/soldiers either makes a situation look scary or not.
If they were searching everyone entering the grounds, did you ever think that perhaps they had some intelligence that led them to conclude that there might be a possible threat? That arming officers visibly on the periphery might just dissuade anyone with evil intent? [See first two comments above. Anti-Semitism is rampant and Jews make a nice “target”. Most Muslims aren’t a problem, but could there have been some credible info to make a small town department want to show a visible force to avoid a potential problem (all it takes is one or two extremists to ruin a nice event)? Anyone with ill intent seeing a “show of force” may re-think where they want to try to do their evil deeds.]
Isn’t Sharon a “dry town”? With a huge group of people, perhaps they wanted to prevent alcohol and private fireworks from being brought into the grounds? Someone throwing fireworks around where people are elbow to elbow can be dangerous and public drunks in a crowd often leads to fights and assaults that perhaps the local department wanted to avoid. I know that people entering the Esplanade/Hatch Shell area for concerts/July 4th are subject to search – mostly for alcohol.
I don’t know what or why this happened, but somehow I think there is much more here than what some folks think from reading the initial comments. It even could have been as simple as some intelligence that some gang-bangers from another town intended to go to the event to cause trouble . . . how far is Boston or Brockton from Sharon?
As for the comment about not wanting to live in a “police state”, sorry you are too late. After 9/11 the laws and actions of government have already put the USA into a “police state” . . . welcome to Amerika!![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Doesn’t Sharon have two Islamic Mosques on its borders?
Did every police officer have an AR slung on their shoulder, or only a select few?
Did every police detail have a cruiser parked beside them? [Getting back to a cruiser to get a long gun in a mob scene “when you need it” can waste lives unnecessarily! Many places (major events) I’ve been, cruisers are parked maybe ¼ mile away from the officers . . . too far to run when “you really need something NOW”.]
My understanding is that more people attend the Sharon fireworks than live in the town. If true, a small town department certainly must be pro-active to AVOID incidents . . . they certainly wouldn’t have the assets required to RESPOND to an incident after the fact due to the size of the force, size of the crowd of innocents, logistics of getting LE to the scene in such a mob (and cars parked everywhere making streets narrower than normal), etc.
Were they dressed like the picture shown above (looking like Military in the sandbox) or in standard uniforms with a rifle slung over the shoulder? If the latter, do you feel intimidated when looking at pictures of Israeli police or soldiers . . . all of whom seem to have ARs with them? I can’t speak for others, but to me the demeanor of police/soldiers either makes a situation look scary or not.
If they were searching everyone entering the grounds, did you ever think that perhaps they had some intelligence that led them to conclude that there might be a possible threat? That arming officers visibly on the periphery might just dissuade anyone with evil intent? [See first two comments above. Anti-Semitism is rampant and Jews make a nice “target”. Most Muslims aren’t a problem, but could there have been some credible info to make a small town department want to show a visible force to avoid a potential problem (all it takes is one or two extremists to ruin a nice event)? Anyone with ill intent seeing a “show of force” may re-think where they want to try to do their evil deeds.]
Isn’t Sharon a “dry town”? With a huge group of people, perhaps they wanted to prevent alcohol and private fireworks from being brought into the grounds? Someone throwing fireworks around where people are elbow to elbow can be dangerous and public drunks in a crowd often leads to fights and assaults that perhaps the local department wanted to avoid. I know that people entering the Esplanade/Hatch Shell area for concerts/July 4th are subject to search – mostly for alcohol.
I don’t know what or why this happened, but somehow I think there is much more here than what some folks think from reading the initial comments. It even could have been as simple as some intelligence that some gang-bangers from another town intended to go to the event to cause trouble . . . how far is Boston or Brockton from Sharon?
As for the comment about not wanting to live in a “police state”, sorry you are too late. After 9/11 the laws and actions of government have already put the USA into a “police state” . . . welcome to Amerika!
Palladin
NES Member
Good thing this guy didn't go to Sharon!
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/man_arrested_wi.html
Man arrested with explosive near Norton ballfield
July 7, 2009 12:35 PM Email| Comments (0)| Text size – + By Brian R. Ballou, Globe Staff
Norton police arrested a man at gunpoint last night when he allegedly approached a youth baseball game with a powerful explosive in the trunk of his car.
The man, Jason Driscoll, 37, pleaded not guilty today in Attleboro District Court to a charge of possession of an infernal machine. He was ordered held on $10,000 cash bail. Driscoll has a history with explosives and lost his left eye in a pipe bomb blew up in his face as a 16-year-old.
Defense attorney Brian D. Roman described his client's arrest as a misunderstanding.
"From what I've seen so far, it appears to be a firework," Roman said after the arraignment. "These are fairly innocent charges and clearly he didn't have any intent to hurt anyone."
The explosive was described in court as a 3- to 4-inch cardboard tube with wires sticking out of it. Norton police said they learned from a confidential informant that Driscoll had the explosive. Police watched Driscoll, and when he approached the youth baseball game, officers drew their weapons and place him under arrest on South Worcester Street.
The defense said that Driscoll was heading to sandpits near the ballfield to detonate what Roman described as a firework. A State Police bomb squad detonated the explosive on the scene. A hazardous materials team searched Driscoll’s home and found chemicals and bomb-making materials, police said.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/man_arrested_wi.html
Man arrested with explosive near Norton ballfield
July 7, 2009 12:35 PM Email| Comments (0)| Text size – + By Brian R. Ballou, Globe Staff
Norton police arrested a man at gunpoint last night when he allegedly approached a youth baseball game with a powerful explosive in the trunk of his car.
The man, Jason Driscoll, 37, pleaded not guilty today in Attleboro District Court to a charge of possession of an infernal machine. He was ordered held on $10,000 cash bail. Driscoll has a history with explosives and lost his left eye in a pipe bomb blew up in his face as a 16-year-old.
Defense attorney Brian D. Roman described his client's arrest as a misunderstanding.
"From what I've seen so far, it appears to be a firework," Roman said after the arraignment. "These are fairly innocent charges and clearly he didn't have any intent to hurt anyone."
The explosive was described in court as a 3- to 4-inch cardboard tube with wires sticking out of it. Norton police said they learned from a confidential informant that Driscoll had the explosive. Police watched Driscoll, and when he approached the youth baseball game, officers drew their weapons and place him under arrest on South Worcester Street.
The defense said that Driscoll was heading to sandpits near the ballfield to detonate what Roman described as a firework. A State Police bomb squad detonated the explosive on the scene. A hazardous materials team searched Driscoll’s home and found chemicals and bomb-making materials, police said.
Yes the Jewish population is rumored to be >70% and, AFAIK, the largest mosque in New England is well within the borders of the town and less than 2 miles (as the crow flied) from the fireworks staging area.
I didn't go this year and am glad of it.
I refuse to advocate restricting rights in the name of safety. I don't see this as contradictory to complaining about how dangerous a town might be. I'm sure most people on this board would agree that if every decent citizen in Brockton were carrying a firearm things would be much different.
You can't control stupid. You can't control homicidal maniacs. What does having officers walking around searching everyone and wielding heavy weapons get us?
You know... besides 'control'.
+2 what the hell? It's 4th of July weekend and you're going to try and search me without a warrant? Seriously? I initially thought it was overkill and I guess I still do but I don't think it would have made me as nervous as seeing National Guard members w/ weapons (there were some in Cambridge but they weren't armed... they did have some bulky backpacks though...). Honestly though, guns don't make me nervous. I'd like to be able to carry them if the cops can for sure though.
What does make me nervous is mall ninja cops searching people without probable cause or a warrant at an independence day fireworks celebration. It actually infuriates me!
You know what else sucks? I clicked on this thread because I thought I was going to see some cool celebratory pictures of the weekend. Instead I find a thread about random searches and AR15 carrying cops at a community event. This is sad.
namedpipes
NES Member
Ok...to answer your question I have no idea, I have not worked for that town for years nor have I attended the event subsiquent to me switching depts. I don't recall the signs exact wording as to the portion regarding weapons, if it said "weapons" or "illegal weapons" or something along those lines.
But also no we (or at least I, I won't speak for the event organizers or "brass") really had no concern about a person lawfully carrying come in armed.
