Judge Rules Federal Ban on Guns With Removed Serial Numbers Is Unconstitutional

It’s glorious to see the Bruen decision turning everything on its head.
It used to be gun laws were almost always ruled Constitutional, then the freedom loving among us had to fight to get our rights back.
Since June, it seems everything is being ruled to violate the Second Ammendment and the Goverment has to fight to keep infringing.
Much like when the British surrendered at Yorktown in 1789, the anti Second Amendment forces, if they have a band, should be playing “The World Turned Upside Down”
 
“Bruen said serial numbers were not required when the Second Amendment was adopted in 1791, and were not widely used until 1968, putting them outside that tradition.”

Interesting - this case might have legs. Without the SN snag, the concept of Ghost Guns can be dissembled.
Bruen covered that? Wow. Why?

The more I hear about Bruen the more I'm amazed by it (in a good way). I couldnt of been more wrong about that case.

@pastera
 
Bruen covered that? Wow. Why?

The more I hear about Bruen the more I'm amazed by it (in a good way). I couldnt of been more wrong about that case.

@pastera

IANAL, but I think it's due to the "Text, history, and tradition" test as opposed to the "two-step intermediate scrutiny" test that was used in decisions previously.
 
My point was that when some gang banger gets caught with a gun with a nice finish on it and if the cops had enough brains to look at the SN and see it is a recent production piece, they may go back and find the original purchaser who is sometimes a GF or other pawn.
You do realize that in most states that gang banger can just buy privately FTF and doesn't even need to do a straw purchase, right?
 
I like this guy.

From the article:

He noted that a firearm without a serial number was not considered more dangerous compared to other firearms in 1791, when the Second Amendment was adopted. At the time, “serial numbers were not required, or even in common use,” he said,

“Any modern regulation that does not comport with the historical understanding of the right is to be deemed unconstitutional, regardless of how desirable or important that regulation may be in our modern society,” Goodwin said in his decision.
Yes, sir. he is correct.
 
Bruen covered that? Wow. Why?

The more I hear about Bruen the more I'm amazed by it (in a good way). I couldnt of been more wrong about that case.

@pastera
I posted this in the other thread but I will post it again.
It used to be gun laws were almost always ruled Constitutional, then the freedom loving among us had to fight to get our rights back.
Since Bruen in June, it seems everything is being ruled to violate the Second Amendment and the Government has to fight to keep infringing.
 
Bruen covered that? Wow. Why?

The more I hear about Bruen the more I'm amazed by it (in a good way). I couldnt of been more wrong about that case.

@pastera

As others mentioned, post heller all the district and circuit courts us3d a two step intermediate means balancing test. In a nutshell the two step process was, does the gun regulation impact the 2A. If it does, does the government have a compelling interest to violate a constitutional right. The government would say we need to ban AWBs because they’re dangerous and we’re used in some mass shootings. Court would say that’s a compelling interest of the govt, constitutional rights can be violated.

NYSRPA vs bruen written by Thomas said the 2 step test one one step too many. Does the regulation impact the 2A, if yes then any regulation must behave been one in existence in 1791 when the 2nd was ratified or 1868 when the 14rh amendment was ratified. Or analogous to a regulation from those times.

Gun control really didn’t exist until the late 1800s, carry bans and 1920s on with machine guns, suppressors, then mag limits 1990, AWB etc.

Gun controllers had a joke of a standard before, and now they have a near impossible task. The NY AG is so desperate they’re using racist laws from the 1800s preventing blacks and Indians from owning guns to justify their new laws. They really have nothing to use because gun control started long after 1868 and 90% of it didn’t start until 1968
 
I posted this in the other thread but I will post it again.
It used to be gun laws were almost always ruled Constitutional, then the freedom loving among us had to fight to get our rights back.
Since Bruen in June, it seems everything is being ruled to violate the Second Amendment and the Government has to fight to keep infringing.

I’d say it wasn’t being held constitutional but was rather a means balancing of yes it violates the constitution but the govt has a compelling interest to do it. Basically the 2 step meant the constitution was written in pencil and parts didn’t matter if the government said they didn’t.
 
I just got this email.

No serial number (until you build it), and no jig and no instructions and you are good to go again?????

I was kind of surprised to see this. Not sure I want to be a test case.



507x385.jpg
ATf finally gives written guidance on what is and is not a " Firearm" which clears the way for manufacturers to make and sell products.

To Summarize : It cant have a jig and we cant give you any instruction or help but the 80% is very much so legal. Click below for more info and the link to the federal regulation.
 

Anti-gun law professor angst over the decision. Crimes committed using guns were not prevented and criminals were not caught via serialized weapons in the founding era and nor are they to any significant degree today.

The opinion also illustrates another major problem with Bruen’s test. What if the Founding generation didn’t address the societal problem in question because there was no political will to do so, or because gun crime was not a pressing issue at the time and therefore was not on the legislative radar?“

Lawyers grasping at hypotheticals - suppose there was no gun crime during the founding era or that the was not motivation to make laws to address gun crime? The former would take a few minutes to address using historical sources. The latter - maybe they’re on to something there. The notion that regulating guns could minimize crime is a fairly recent idea. Historically, dealing with crime was about criminals, so sterilizing guns was not crime control method. The case itself is about a felon in possession of an unserialized gun - he’s still jammed up on the felon-in-possession part.
 

Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part.

Are there other laws holding those in possession or use of a vehicle with removed, obliterated, tampered or altered VIN ID numbers to be felons?
 
Bruen ruling shaking things up again. This one could get interesting quickly.


Another shoe has dropped.


In United States v. Price, a district court in West Virginia considered whether bans on firearm possession by felons and possession of firearms with obliterated serial numbers were constitutional. While finding that the law barring convicted felons from possessing guns was justified under Bruen, the court found that the laws against removing the serial number on a firearm or possessing a firearm with an obliterated serial number were not.


As Judge Joseph R. Goodwin wrote:



Firearms with no serial number are just as “bearable” as the same firearm with a serial number, and there is no “common use” issue here as the presence or lack of a serial number makes no difference with respect to whether the type of weapon is commonly used. Finally, I can find no authority for the idea that a firearm without a serial number would meet the historical definition of a dangerous or unusual firearm.


The opinion applies Bruen in a straightforward manner. Noting that serial numbers on firearms were essentially unknown until the era of mass production, and laws requiring them and prohibiting their removal dated only to the 1968 Gun Control Act, the court ruled that 18 U.S.C. § 922(k) unconstitutionally infringes on Second Amendment rights.


While not before the court, the court seems to indicate that requiring a manufacturer to serialize the guns it puts into commerce was acceptable, as such did not infringe any right to keep or bear arms.


The court gave the following examples:



Assume, for example, that a law-abiding citizen purchases a firearm from a sporting goods store. At the time of the sale, that firearm complies with the commercial regulation that it bear a serial number. The law-abiding citizen takes the firearm home and removes the serial number. He has no ill intent and never takes any otherwise unlawful action with the firearm. Contrary to the Government’s argument that Section 922(k) does not amount to an “infringement” on the lawabiding citizen’s Second Amendment right, the practical application is that while the law-abiding citizen’s possession of the firearm was originally legal, it became illegal only because the serial number was removed. He could be prosecuted federally for his possession of it. That is the definition of an infringement on one’s right to possess a firearm.
Now, assume that the law-abiding citizen dies and leaves his gun collection to his law-abiding daughter. The daughter takes the firearms, the one with the removed serial number among them, to her home and displays them in her father’s memory. As it stands, Section 922(k) also makes her possession of the firearm illegal, despite the fact that it was legally purchased by her father and despite the fact that she was not the person who removed the serial number. These scenarios make clear that Section 922(k) is far more than the mere commercial regulation the Government claims it to be. Rather, it is a blatant prohibition on possession. The conduct prohibited by Section 922(k) falls squarely within the Second Amendment’s plain text.

Before you break out your Dremel tool and start de-identifying your gats, remember that this case isn’t over. While the decision may (and should) be upheld, until it is final and the feds formally acknowledge that Section 922(k) is kaput, you must recognize that it might not be – and once you’ve removed a serial number, you can’t put it back on.


Similarly, there are various state laws that prohibit the removal of serial numbers or possession of unserialized guns. While these should eventually be struck down for the same reason, until they are, you would be playing with fire.


I read the court’s opinion as potentially blessing laws enhancing the criminal penalties for committing a crime with a firearm that has had its serial number removed . . . which would give a zealous prosecutor additional ammunition were you to use such a firearm in a Zimmerman or Rittenhouse type self-defense situation.


What are the implications of this ruling? If its logic and reasoning are followed by other courts – again, they should be, as it’s a straightforward application of Bruen – then “ghost gun” bans, serialization requirements for homemade firearms, microstamping requirements, “smart gun” laws, and other recent ideas from the Shannon Watts of the worlds should be toast.


So too should be things like magazine capacity limits and just about everything the California politicians have come up with in the past couple of decades.


Could it similarly be used to invalidate NFA regulations on suppressors, SBRs, and SBSs? Perhaps, although the argument will be made that the NFA is just a tax. The NFA was structured that way because FDR’s DOJ was concerned that straightforward bans on those items would violate the Second Amendment. That issue should be addressed soon by Judge Pittman in the test case on the “Made in Texas” suppressor law.


Could the West Virginia ruling be used to attack the Hughes Amendment?


Most definitely.
 
I also heard there's some kind of thing going on in Eastern Europe. Has anyone heard anything about the Ukraine?

I heard something about that. So big the American federation of teachers president visited. I have no idea why a American union hack goes to Ukraine, almost certainly on union expenses, but she’s there.

A state court in TN struck down a public housing gun ban too.
 
I heard something about that. So big the American federation of teachers president visited. I have no idea why a American union hack goes to Ukraine, almost certainly on union expenses, but she’s there.

A state court in TN struck down a public housing gun ban too.
Sorry if this causes thread drift, but I heard some federal judge just ruled the ban on unserialized receivers was unconstitutional. Don’t have a link at present, but I’ll search for one. Not really sure where to look though.
 
“Text, history, and tradition” - the new standard by which gun laws are judged.

Put simply, when judging a modern law if there’s no history of a similar law before 1868, then the modern law is unconstitutional.
Thanks for this definition. I assumed 1868 was a reference to the 14th amendment so I asked around and learned quite a bit including this:


"Now, the 14th Amendment was passed with the express intent of conveying the 2nd Amendment right to all citizens of the United States (among other intents). For example, if we look at the speech given by Senator Jacob Howard when the 14th Amendment was being debated, he is quite clear that 14A’s “privileges and immunities” clause includes the 2nd Amendment right:

"The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States?… What these fundamental principles are it would, perhaps, be more tedious than difficult to enumerate…

"To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be – for they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature – to these should be added the personal rights guaranteed and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a right appertaining to each and all the people; the right to keep and to bear arms…[Bolding added.]"

Congressional Debate on the 14th Amendment | Teaching American History
 
Consider this - People used to say it was a federal offense to deface a coin or paper money. Then it was ruled that it is your money, your property, and not the government's - so you can do with it what you please. You can draw pictures on paper money or melt silver coins. Paper money has a serial number. No one mentions altering that serial number This should apply to firearms.
 
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