"It came with the gun..."

[Fooped]

Here's one that I have trouble believing, but I'd like to debunk it for curiosity's sake. I was at a dealer (in Mass) a couple of months ago, and I noticed a particular pistol in the case. I asked to take a look at it, and when I looked at the magazine, it appeared to me to be a new, post-ban hi cap mag. The gun was also new, and when I asked the fellow behind the counter about the mag (and more specifcally it's age) He stated quite adamantly that due to the fact that the hi-cap "came with the gun" it was considered part of the gun and therefore legal. I kinda scratched my head on this, and asked a few other questions pertaining to the subject, but he held his position firmly. I thanked him for his time, and went about my merry way. He also stated that he could not get "replacement" hi-cap mags for the same (or any other) gun, as they did NOT "come with the gun". If this were the case, it would make for some very strange hybrid scenarios (interchanging mags between guns, selling hard to get hi cap mags, etc.)

FWIW, I had trouble believing this, as I've never heard any other dealer (or individual for that matter) support this "policy". Yet stranger things in Mass. have occurred...

Anyone else heard this before?

 

[taz-2005]

Nope....I think you did the right thing. "Thanks but no thanks"

 

[matt]

I had one shop try to sell me post ban SIG hicaps (at a very elevated price for heavily abused mags, I might add) saying 'oh, people make too much of that... there's no reason you can't own that in this state".

My guess is he was trying to get rid of it by selling it to some unsuspecting fool... too bad because I've seen people on this board give positive reviews of this shop. This turned me off.

 

[KMaurer]

Expecting to get a good legal opinion from a gun dealer is somewhat like asking your chief of police what's a fair price to pay for a 80% SMLE. You might possibly get a good answer, but I wouldn't bet either my money or my freedom on either one. In the case you cite, you definitely would have lost.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

The guy was as ignorant as dirt!

LOTS of new hi-cap mags are being sold in MA to unsuspecting customers! Some are difficult to tell apart (pre-ban vs. banned), others are rather obvious.

 

[Fooped]

This is exactly as I (strongly) suspected. My post was more to "air it out" as opposed to thinking that there was any element of truth to the dealer's statements.

Thanks for weighing in on this folks...

 

[Adam_MA]

Ok.... So, what's the dealer so we won't go there and get jammed up with his BS!

 

[Fooped]

Hey folks,

I'd like to respond to the above request as well as the private messages I have received over the past couple of days. I am not comfortable naming the dealer in question simply because I do not feel it is my place to do so. I asked him a question, he gave me a response (which I did not take at face value) and that was that. I will say that I did not have to drag this information out of him, and anyone that walks into his shop would probably be told the same story.

 

[M1911]

I had one shop try to sell me post ban SIG hicaps

How could you tell they were post ban mags? Did they say LEO only?

 

[drgrant]

Hey folks,

I'd like to respond to the above request as well as the private messages I have received over the past couple of days. I am not comfortable naming the dealer in question simply because I do not feel it is my place to do so. I asked him a question, he gave me a response (which I did not take at face value) and that was that. I will say that I did not have to drag this information out of him, and anyone that walks into his shop would probably be told the same story.

FWIW, I've heard similar puffery from a lot of different
dealers. I wouldn't put any stock in it. I guess it depends on how
adamant the dealer is... but you could respectfully just ask for only 10
round magazines. If they decline to accomodate you then just go
to the next store. Many dealers (in MA and otherwise) consider normal
magazines to add value to the gun, so theyll often try to bundle them
together, even if they unwittingly break the law to do so. It's
close to impossible to tell the difference most of the time, except
possibly with those Glock magazines, and even then, the data which
shows generational differences there is still only hearsay. Sometimes
the dealers themselves may get the wool pulled over their eyes... eg, they
have a supplier that says "Yeah, so and so, we have plenty of preban
glock magazines, that are new old stock from right before the
cutoff. How many do you need?" The dealer may think the
deal is wonky, but citing the sellers affirmation, he may still think he
has enough plausible deniability to avoid problems.

There are many dealers in MA (and other places) that essentially treat
the magazine provenance issue as being almost a moot point, because
it's almost completely unenforceable. While many of us would disagree and
say that "the law is the law" and want to avoid being the test
case, it's a lot easier to understand their bizarre responses when they're
put into context. Theres also a lot of false intestinal fortitute around
the whole connotation the "class A large capacity" license, because a lot
of people carry the that phrase-club around meaning that any
mag restrictions don't apply to them, provided they have an LTC-A,
and as we know, that simply isn't true.


-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

BTW, to the best of my knowledge (not positive so check it out if this concerns you) . . . it is NOT illegal for dealers to possess (for sale) or sell NEW hi-cap mags. It is the "possession" (retail ownership for carry/shooting) that is illegal. So the dealer may not be as careful as you'd like.

Also, I have been told by a number of dealers that the distributors are telling the MA dealers "sure these are pre-ban", even though they look pristine new and have new features! So it really is caveat emptor!!

 

[Lugnut]

BTW, to the best of my knowledge (not positive so check it out if this concerns you) . . . it is NOT illegal for dealers to possess (for sale) or sell NEW hi-cap mags. It is the "possession" (retail ownership for carry/shooting) that is illegal. So the dealer may not be as careful as you'd like.

I believe this is true as well... dealers can sell to LEO and they can legally have post ban hi caps in MA. Also- many dealers sell to out of state customers that don't have these restrictions. I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure you're correct.

 

[M1911]

Ok, so I'm asking again. How do you tell Sig pre-ban mags from Sig no-ban mags?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Start with a call to Sig's Tech Supt and ask them how to tell the difference.

That's what I did with Glock!

 

[JackO]

Ok, so I'm asking again. How do you tell Sig pre-ban mags from Sig no-ban mags?

M1911, I'd like to have this info too. Please share if you ever talk to SIG.

 

[MikeD]

M1911, I'd like to have this info too. Please share if you ever talk to SIG.

I believe there's a date code on the bottom of the floorplate. Sort of a clockface with an arrow pointing to the month of manufacture and a two digit code for the year. I have preban P229 mags that are dated 94 and post ban mags that are dated 04 and 05.

BTW, I had a dealer tell me that LEO marked mags are legal to own now, as long they were "in state" prior to the end of the AWB...

 

[Len-2A Training]

BTW, I had a dealer tell me that LEO marked mags are legal to own now, as long they were "in state" prior to the end of the AWB...

For everyone's benefit, this is pure BS and an unquestionable violation that could lead to 5-10 years jail term.

 

[M1911]

Nothing on the floorplates of my 226 mags. Could you post a picture of your floorplates so I can make sure I'm looking in the right place?

Thanks,

M1911

 

[SKS Ray]

I just corrected a similar experience a few days ago with a trip back to a favorite gun shop we all know here. When I got my refurbed Glock 23 recently it came with 2 high cap mags, 13 rounders. After doing some checking on here I spoke with the store owner and we both agreed on Glock's magazine screw ups. These mags had the empty space below the 40 stamp where the LE Only or Govt Use Only markings would normally be and were definitely new. I made a trip back to where I got the pistol from and exchanged the 2 13 rounders for 2 10 round magazines. The store owner said he'd sell the other ones to one of his LEO customers when they came in.

 

[JackO]

I believe there's a date code on the bottom of the floorplate. Sort of a clockface with an arrow pointing to the month of manufacture and a two digit code for the year. I have preban P229 mags that are dated 94 and post ban mags that are dated 04 and 05.

Not all mags have date stamp on the floorplate. I have some preban 9mm 228 mags with no stamps, and I saw some brand new (came with a brand new SIG) with no stamp. I was told that SIG (or OEM manufacturer) started putting those codes after the federal AWB (1994) and stopped when the ban expired.

 

[M1911]

Great. So in other words, there's no simple way to tell between legal pre-ban and illegal no-ban mags.

 

[drgrant]

Ok, so I'm asking again. How do you tell Sig pre-ban mags from Sig no-ban mags?

In many cases you can't, period. The only dead giveaway in the P2XX
series is the P226 in .40/.357. Since this gun did not exist prior to the
ban, then highcaps can't exist.... although it is important to note that some
people have modified P226/9mm mags to hold the extra round or two in the
larger calibers. (In that particular gun however, it is sort of a waste to do
that to simply get one or two extra rounds, at the possible expense of
reliability). For the SigPro, it's obvious.... there are no legal hicaps
for those, as they don't share magazines with anyting else.

In P226/P228/P229 9mm formats you're looking at "next to impossible"
even for some aftermarket mags such as the MecGar flush-fit
17 rounders. Even though MecGar wasnt as popular and may not have
been the Sig OEM at the time, they were indeed producing magazines which
worked in Sig firearms. (They work so well, as a matter of fact, that I think
this is why Sig ultimately has MecGar OEM the mags now, albiet not in the
same capacities as MecGar's product line, and with SigSauer markings).

-Mike

 

[JackO]

So what's the verdict? Just buy UNMARKED, no date stamped high caps SIG or aftermarket and be happy (excluding P226 in .40/.357)?

 

[SiameseRat]

Great. So in other words, there's no simple way to tell between legal pre-ban and illegal no-ban mags.

I know that LEO can't tell. But ignorance isn't an excuse, and I'd much rather be on the winning side of any debate.

Don't you just LOVE Massachusetts?

 

[M1911]

I know that LEO can't tell. But ignorance isn't an excuse, and I'd much rather be on the winning side of any debate.

But if I can't tell if the mags that I purchased are, in fact, pre-ban, then there's no way that I can know whether I'm not the winning side of the debate or not. All I can do is take someone's word and pray.

 

[Blackdeek2006]

Hey Everyone,

I'm slightly confused or maybe i missed something. As i understood it, a class "A" unrestricted in Mass allows the posession of high capacity handguns = or greater than 10 rounds. Did i miss something about the magazine capacities? On the sigarms site for the P229R (hopefully my carry peice once i have the CCW) it indicates 10 or13, 10 or 12, and 10 or 12 for the 9mm, 357, and 40 respectively. Can someone clarify this. Thanks everyone.

 

[Moderator]

Massachusetts residents that are Class "A" holders can legally only be in possession of high cap magazines (hold more then 10 rnds) if they were made prior to the AWB 9-13-1994.

 

[Blackdeek2006]

So if i purchase a new Sig229 i have to order through the dealer with only a 10 round mag capacity?

Dang if that's the case.

I'm moving to NH!!!

 

[drgrant]

So if i purchase a new Sig229 i have to order through the dealer with only a 10 round mag capacity?

Dang if that's the case.

I'm moving to NH!!!

You can't get new mags with a P229 or any other gun that are greater
than 10 rounds. Prebans for a P229 are pretty easy to find at
gunshows and the like. As long as it says "P229 .40" on the side of it
and does not have the crime bill markings you should be just
fine.

If it is a 9mm, you can use P228 prebans with it. (The P228 and P229 9mm
take the same magazines).

 

[Moderator]

As long as it says "P229 .40" on the side of it
and does not have the crime bill markings you should be just
fine.

And was made prior to the AWB. A high cap magazine not having the LEO/Military stamp could have been made this morning and is illegal in this state if held by a non LEO/Military or FFL.