Hunting target scope for SCAR 17s?

drgrant said:
Yes, AKA, "might as well be fairy tale land", conditions nobody on this board will likely ever expose their rifle to.

If the results are so awful, then why are M4/M16/AR derivatives still basically the #1 deployed rifle type/pattern amongst pipe hitter types? A lot of which include units that
can run/bring virtually anything that they want? If it's so terrible why would they keep going back to it? [laugh] If it was so terrible then operators would be demanding
Kalashnikov clones and end up using them 95% of the time.

I'm not bashing a SCAR or LWRC or whatever either. People should keep buying them, and companies should build more stuff. Moar is better. I am bashing the ever loving shit out of this retarded, hula hoop chicken neck jive turkey type idea that you somehow "need" one to have a reliable rifle. That's just retard talk. It's retarded as a Glock owner telling some guy with a smith 3rd gen that he's owned and maintained all his life, that somehow his favorite gun is not reliable enough. [rofl] It's the same brand of BS.



That's great and all, but you have to ask yourself- does it actually matter? In the real world, for normal people? Keep dreaming. A $1000ish Colt 6920 with some lube in the BCG every now and then and a wipe here and there is going to be pretty much fine. It will be reliable enough with decent mags/ammunition that most people would be bored by its existence.

Have you ever even shot a decent, properly built AR to failure? I doubt it. (maybe some rifle trainers have, or some pipe hitters that burn up a few thousand rounds a
month, etc. )

I have like a mid length, tier 2-3ish (I think it has an MP tested bolt, but that's the only fancy thing on the whole gun) AR right now, it hasn't been cleaned since I bought it. I know I can probably drop a couple drops of lube on the BCG and it'll run just fine. (it may not even need that but given that I haven't touched it in like a year itd probably be cheap insurance). Are there better rifles? Sure, you bet there are, including other ARs, etc. Is what I have bad enough that it compromises the intended use? nope. not even close.

When I was a newb I used to huff the gun rag/internet glue fumes, etc, used to be one of the types who wouldn't own a rifle that shits where it eats, but when I bought my first decent AR, I quickly discovered most of that stuff to be mostly a cauldron of bullshit that doesn't actually matter. That became apparent to me when I had like 1700 rounds through my Colt 6520 and the only thing that made it "stop" was a bad magazine...

I smoke cigars with rich guys that think just like you do, and it's hysterical, We get into these kinds of gun discussions and their myopic thinking cannot be unf***ed. Buying it "Because you want it" is one thing. I get that. I get that 110%. That's like when someone buys a Range Rover/Jaguar/Bentley (insert some other shitty, but nice looking car here) because they like how it rides and looks. It's a perfectly understandable motive. I get it, everyone has their own tastes. On the other hand when they start talking about guns they start getting into this almost like, lispy hipsteresque-talk about quality and reliability, that's based off either an excess of hype, internet blather, or some other effluvial crap, or gnomish mysticism for that matter. A guy who fires less rounds in a year than even I do (which at this point, given what I don't shoot is pretty pathetic, a few thousand rounds is a pretty low bar to hit) was trying to lecture me about how an HK MR whatever is so much more reliable than an AR. (and to top it off, he's never owned either one, just parroting shit from gun rags or whatever) I'm like... "It's a great rifle, however, in our world, most of the differences will never be realized, nor will it matter". And they don't get it. Now if the guy had just said "I like HK cause I have a bunch of their guns and I can afford it so that's what I'm buying" I get that, it makes sense. Hell I tell people to buy extra. The person then is not trying to sell themselves what, for their circumstances, amounts to a big lie to justify a purchasing decision.

It even occurs when you up the ante. This one guy was asking me what the best 1911 was and blah blah blah what do you think of Nighthawk etc blah blah blah, and I think I spent a half an hour with the guy trying to explain to him that "Unless he's going to buy an SVI, I would take the nighthawk money and buy two Dan Wessons with it" and I think his mind was numb because he didn't understand how something that cost 60% as much would be "as good" etc. It was pretty numbing.

I don't understand the need for people to tell lies and hyperbole to themselves to justify what they bought. It's just mind boggling. It's like they have part of their conscience that's trying to tell them that they made a bad decision, and the lie is necessary to shut up that half of their brain or something. Or they feel the need to self-validate because their parents didn't validate enough of their decisions growing up or something, its really weird shit that I don't think I'll ever wrap my brain around. Not saying this is the case for you but some of them feel validated based off this nostrum of vanity that their choice will somehow automatically be respected, blah blah. The fun thing is the real world is a lot more cruel than that. In things that actually matter what you can do with "X" is 1000x more important than the topic of whatever "X" actually is.

In order for reliability (as opposed to say, just simply wanting it because you like the way it looks or shoots, or for the sake of something different to try) to legitimately be an overriding motivating factor WRT purchasing decisions on stuff like this, this means that only two things are actually possible:

1- you are the corner case that can legitimately justify something based on a reliability claim. Please show the class your multi million dollar MG collection where customers pour thousands of rounds through your guns every week, or all the gun testing you've done that shows a hard-edged , drastic difference. Or the helmet cam video where your brand new AR choked while shooting the Taliban because it "wasnt reliable enough" etc.

2-you're from the George Costanza school of thought and keep telling yourself this "moar reliability" pep talk fluff to justify what you did... [rofl]




It can be only one of these two possibilities, and in the case of #2, I guess if it makes you sleep better at night, then keep telling yourself that stuff.

-Mike[/QUOTE
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There is no justification necessary, I never said they were worth the asking price, not once. They are expensive, I get it, it’s hard for most to justify, totally understand. Do I think it’s worth the extra $2k? For me, yes. I dont have to maintain the scars or the lwrc’s at all, Im not sure I’ve even oiled them since I got them, and they’ve been 100% reliable. I shoot my guns, not as much as some here, but definitely not safe queens. They have been proven to be exceptional rifles, and not just a fad. Maybe that’s where some of the hate comes from?
And no, I don’t think the AR15 is terribly unreliable, not at all or in anyway, never said that, nor did I imply it, they need more maintenance and care than other platforms, it’s just not the end all be all like people claim, better designs do exist.
There was an incident in Afghanistan in which the M4 was being worked beyond its abilities (can’t remember the name?), there were some troops overwhelmed by the the taliban. Troops that were still in the fight had to switch between multiple m4s to fend off the Taliban due to overheating, letting them cool then going back. I believe that is one reason they thought about other options, hence the trials. Unfortunately price and logistics wins.


There’s always someone that has to take a topic down another road, (yes it happens in every forum), who’s telling people they are stupid with their money (in so many words). So in just the opposite sense as you’ve described above, in his mind his $900 Ar15 is the only way to go, and how it makes sense to install parts worth twice as much as the rifle, but I’m the idiot, and he’s a genius. So an innocent Scar/scope/optic thread turns into a shit show cuz someone has to bring up price, (as usual) and a mediocre trigger on a $3k rifle. So what. Troll. Price nazis are the worst kind of people, they can’t just say “hey, it’s expensive, its a great rifle, it’s just not for me”. Instead they have to bash it and criticize the ones who have bought it, it’s grossly immature.
With that being said there is no buyers remorse here, something that Scar haters claim SCAR fanboys suffer from while defending the hate. And if I defend my purchase all of a sudden it’s assumed I’m trying to justify my purchase, the truth is, nobody likes be criticized. With that being said, if there was regret in anyway, it could be sold in a heart beat at a profit.
Haters will hate, and there is a shit ton of hate on the Scar, maybe the most hated in the gun forum world at this point.
 
andrew1220 said:
I got no skin in the game here - just own one AR that I assembled/built.

But I have to ask, where are those “facts” coming from??? Anyone can write that and post it as “facts”. Am I missing something here?
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Well if you care to prove them wrong, and have the spare time from cleaning your dirty Ar15, you’ll know that those are the results of the trials, those aren’t made up numbers. Google it and you’ll find the full disclosure from the military.
 
I drove my raptor over a curb at starbucks once to get a good parking spot at chipotle on the other side. Some people might think thats ridiculous to spend that kind of money on a truck but hey man, if i didnt jump that curb i wouldnt have gotten that premium handicap spot, so its justified to me.
 
AllaSnackbah said:
I drove my raptor over a curb at starbucks once to get a good parking spot at chipotle on the other side. Some people might think thats ridiculous to spend that kind of money on a truck but hey man, if i didnt jump that curb i wouldnt have gotten that premium handicap spot, so its justified to me.
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[laugh][kiss]
 
AllaSnackbah said:
I drove my raptor over a curb at starbucks once to get a good parking spot at chipotle on the other side. Some people might think thats ridiculous to spend that kind of money on a truck but hey man, if i didnt jump that curb i wouldnt have gotten that premium handicap spot, so its justified to me.
Click to expand...
All good until you see a escort wagon go air born to beat you to that spot! Lol
Hey I saw a grey raptor stuffed hard on a flat bed in weymouth .....was that you?
 
rkwjunior said:
There is no justification necessary,
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Yet you and others are basically trying to show sell us "moar reliable" over and over.

I never said they were worth the asking price, not once. They are expensive, I get it, it’s hard for most to justify, totally understand.
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This isn't really about price, outside of maybe 1 or 2 skinflints lurking in thread.

My point was that people lie to themselves (and others) to make themselves feel good about the thing they bought and I just never understood that mentality.

Do I think it’s worth the extra $2k? For me, yes. I dont have to maintain the scars or the lwrc’s at all, Im not sure I’ve even oiled them since I got them, and they’ve been 100% reliable. I shoot my guns, not as much as some here, but definitely not safe queens. They have been proven to be exceptional rifles, and not just a fad. Maybe that’s where some of the hate comes from?
Click to expand...

No, the hate isn't from the guns. Guns and the companies tbat make them are fine. The owner base has a higher % of flaming dbags than average, though.


And no, I don’t think the AR15 is terribly unreliable,
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lol not what your posts have been saying...


not at all or in anyway, never said that, nor did I imply it, they need more maintenance and care than other platforms, it’s just not the end all be all like people claim, better designs do exist.
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Yes, and again and again, with limited exceptions the better stuff gets set aside and people end up picking the old shitty DI gas gun, because there's desired attributes beyond some torture test. It's pretty obvious that at some juncture, there's a tipping point. If guns like SCAR etc were so much better nobody would use an AR/M16 anymore.

And it's not that the AR is an especially great design (I think it sucks, at the same time I also believe the design is good enough wrt reliability ) The problem is, much like 1911s or 2011s, every attempt at trying to "kill" the AR fails in some way because there's always something not quite right with the "better" gun. This has nothing to do with price, either.

There was an incident in Afghanistan in which the M4 was being worked beyond its abilities (can’t remember the name?), there were some troops overwhelmed by the the taliban. Troops that were still in the fight had to switch between multiple m4s to fend off the Taliban due to overheating, letting them cool then going back. I believe that is one reason they thought about other options, hence the trials.
Click to expand...

Yes, a thing happened and it probably triggered another stupid DOD procurement dance, and nothing happened in the end. This is the fairy tale thing I touched on earlier.....

Unfortunately price and logistics wins.
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No, in the case of things like SCAR being viable doesn't have much to do with that. There are groups that have these rifles that intentionally choose not to use them what does that tell you? That means preference is a factor as well. It could even be something simple like ergonomics.

Before you get upset it's not even that the gun is bad, either. More likely, lack of adoption is a "square peg, round hole" kind of problem. Lack of modularity doesn't help it either.

There’s always someone that has to take a topic down another road, (yes it happens in every forum), who’s telling people they are stupid with their money (in so many words). So in just the opposite sense as you’ve described above, in his mind his $900 Ar15 is the only way to go, and how it makes sense to install parts worth twice as much as the rifle, but I’m the idiot, and he’s a genius. So an innocent Scar/scope/optic thread turns into a shit show cuz someone has to bring up price, (as usual) and a mediocre trigger on a $3k rifle. So what. Troll.
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Nope, a couple people made jokes about a RIFLE and then the soft skinned fanbois got into an irrational lather about it... that's what happened.

Also a rifle is a system it's not just the bullet dispenser that matters. It's not terribly uncommon for things like glass, NODs, etc, to cost more than the gun does.

Price nazis are the worst kind of people, they can’t just say “hey, it’s expensive, its a great rifle, it’s just not for me”. Instead they have to bash it and criticize the ones who have bought it, it’s grossly immature.
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I don't like skinflints either but that's not why we're at this point....

With that being said there is no buyers remorse here, something that Scar haters claim SCAR fanboys suffer from
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I disagree- a lot of them do suffer from it because otherwise they wouldn't be constantly seeking to validate their purchase to everyone else by flashing "reliability" placards in everybody's face..

Or at least if it's not buyers remorse, then it's most certainly some kind of mental illness, or just a cry for attention. Then again my POV is different because I'm not much of a " fanboi" for anything. I don't get insulted personally if someone says my guns, cars, or the cigars i smoke are terrible. I'm not offended because of someones preference.

I do find it amusing though when people tie/lie themselves into a knot to justify things though.

It's like the AMD / Intel thing. Nobody ever says "they didn't want to spend as much so they got an AMD" it's always some nerd jerking off about how their AMD poopstain skinflint chip is 2% better than the intel, etc. The fun thing is the adults in the room... we don't actually care. And we're still going to poke fun at people justify/reinforce that stuff... [laugh].

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
My point was that people lie to themselves (and others) to make themselves feel good about the thing they bought
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Me, every time I put my $6,000 skateboard helmet on. [laugh] I am just OK with acknowledging my foolishness and don't go cross eyed trying to tell people they are stupid/poor/whatever for not being stupid like me and spending that kind of money for some shit normal people probably don't really need.

drgrant said:
Nope, a couple people made jokes about a RIFLE and then the soft skinned fanbois got into an irrational lather about it... that's what happened.
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This is really what has happened here in this thread. I have tried to point this out and all I get in response is UR CHEEEP, SCAR MOARE REALIARABLEE!!!!!.
 
Love to hate the Scar....lol.

How about let's start a Scar hating thread so when someone actually wants to have a mature conversation about Scopes/Scars, us mature people can have it, and the kids can leave the hate in the appropriate thread.?
 
jmn7w said:
Been lurking on this thread and, given its tempo, reluctant to wade in but here goes. I have just picked up a new 17s and thought a lot about what to put on it, finally settling on a low power variable. As others have pointed out the SCAR is not a precision gun nor am I hunting with it so a 1-8 made sense. Went back and forth a bunch between the Schmidt un Bender PM II short dot and the Leupold Mk 8 CQBSS. I’ll say it’s tough to make such an expensive purchase with the hard information that’s out there...not a lot! I looked at but didn’t really consider the NF ATACR or Khales/Swarovski products, nor the elcan.

I was finally able to look thru the Leupold and went that way, with the H27 reticle. The S&B has fewer features and the locking turrets, illumination, etc. don’t quite match the Leupold. It is true 1x however, and I’m sure the glass would be even clearer. They offer both a ‘standard’ model with both reticle and dot in the same, second, plane and a ‘dual’ with the reticle in the first plane and the dot in the second, very cool.

The Leupold is a 1.1 and not a true substitute for a red dot at lowest power but I’m hardly using this gun to clear rooms so that was less of an issue. The adjustment of everything, magnification, travel, illumination, is incredible and the glass is very bright and clear. Can’t wait to go shoot it!

Just waiting on arrival of a mount, which is a whole other thing. I’m not sure the QD really is worth having or debating but most of the manufacturers, Larue, Bobro, etc make good stuff. I have had good luck with larue but went for an ADM delta which was reasonable and will probably switch the Gieselle trigger from my 16s or just say screw it and order a new one...which brings back the point of money and want/need.
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Lol, yeah, mounts can drive you crazy trying to choose, and the prices are steep too. I always prefer a mount to rings mostly because I think I'll somehow screw up the install using rings. I also went with the ADM Delta and like it a lot. You will be pleased. They make a great quality mount at what I consider to be a fair price.

Good luck with the Leupold, I hadn't checked them out when I got the Burris. While I believe the low power variable is the way to go, Queen Bee does make some good points about why she went with more magnification. If I had to do it again, I wonder if I'd choose something along the lines of a 2-10x scope, or stick with a 1-8x. Decisions, decisions...
 
drgrant said:
Nope, a couple people made jokes about a RIFLE and then the soft skinned fanbois got into an irrational lather about it... that's what happened.
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This right here. I own both and I have SBR'ed both of them, its makes them interesting or I probably would never shoot them. The fanbois are the ones with all the butthurt in this thread.
 
rkwjunior said:
Love to hate the Scar....lol.


How about let's start a Scar hating thread so when someone actually wants to have a mature conversation about Scopes/Scars, us mature people can have it, and the kids can leave the hate in the appropriate thread.?
Click to expand...


DTOM537 said:
This guy is off the rails..... I think you need a snickers
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No one was hating on the scar until you seagulls swooped in and started squaking and shitting all over the place.
 
I think I found the solution for their butthurt....



flare up aside... to go back on topic...

Is someone keeping a list of ultra rugged scopes? (for scar or other rifles, for that matter?) I know this isn't the only rifle that destroys lesser scopes....
 
I know of someone who's keeping a list like that. It's called the Nightforce website. Another one is called the Schmitt&Bender lineup. Good places to start, if your budget is a tad higher than a carton of cigarettes and a pack of gum.
 
edmorseiii said:
No one was hating on the scar until you seagulls swooped in and started squaking and shitting all over the place.
Click to expand...

When someone broughy up wasting money on an aftermarket scar trigger on a $3k dollar rifle.
Not sure what trigger cost has to with hunting scopes.
The hate began.
 
mac1911 said:
HC! How can you accept a shit trigger in a $2500+ gun.
Right there would be a deal killer. There is zero reason why a $2500 has a shit trigger.
Now to pay another $350 for a trigger...uggh. i feel much better about my $900 AR that came with a nice NM trigger. I would like lighter but rules limit to 4.5lbs
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This is hateful criticism and has nothing to do with a scope for hunting.
Scar haters cant resist.
 
So you guys couldn't just ignore it and move on? lol

ETA: case in point, if most glock or 1911 guys took umbrage at those kinds of posts the board would be unusable.

At least this is s gun thread so it's got that going for it. [laugh]
 
I think part of the problem is that, scar haters work off of opinion and not fact. Like the colors don’t look good or they don’t like the trigger, or they don’t like the stock, or it’s over priced ( all opinions) then when people try to bring facts into the convo like the military test results people lose there minds..... let’s agree to disagree and move on lol as fun as this has been
 
DTOM537 said:
I think part of the problem is that, scar haters work off of opinion and not fact. Like the colors don’t look good or they don’t like the trigger, or they don’t like the stock, or it’s over priced ( all opinions) then when people try to bring facts into the convo like the military test results people lose there minds..... let’s agree to disagree and move on lol as fun as this has been
Click to expand...

Opinions like from real gunfighters that leave them behind operationally, or the opinions of dudes that try really hard validate their purchase?
 
drgrant said:
So you guys couldn't just ignore it and move on? lol
Click to expand...
edmorseiii said:
Opinions like from real gunfighters that leave them behind operationally, or the opinions of dudes that try really hard validate their purchase?
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No, I couldnt ignore it, nor could he ignore trolling Scar hate. Price nazi couldn't help himself.

They left them behind ?..HAHAHA. I'm sure that's what happened.
Looks like they may be regretting it now. Fallen comrades to the Ar15. Sad.
 

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