How many rounds is enough?

[bigblue]

Chet hits on something most people never practice: Properly ranging a target. Those BDC reticles are great at the range bc you know that paper is at 100 and the steel is at 200. How are you when the target is moving and you don't know what the distance to target is?

Caliber debate is never ending bc there just too many variables. My best guess is to prepare for the most likely scenarios. As Len pointed out, the roads around Boston will be gridlock so staying put for the first 48-72 hours is probably non negotiable.

Can you defend your suburban oasis? lol wish I had a cinderblock house not a 100 year old wood target stand.

 

[GlockJock]

Just go to the fire department and get a permit for 50,000 rounds. Cost me $25. (also good for 15,000 primers and 48lbs of Powder!)

Or, better yet, say "F"*ck you and your permits, fees, taxes, permission slips, etc etc etc,.. all of which goes to pay for someone's cousin's niece to get the next job" opening "in town.. Or goes partially towards the DISGUSTING salary for a Massachusetts state rep or senator, etc etc...
Or just submit and comply and pay a f*cking ridiculous "fee" for a PERMISSION SLIP to plant f*cking daffodils on your own property, which will be the next fee they dream up. Hoping that - oops, strike that, make it KNOWING that the good citizens of MA will just comply and say "What the heck it's only $25", rather than fight the slimebag statist system suckers who talk and look at you like they're "better than you" because they ride around in a town-owned vehicle, pulling into their driveways and dropping off a case of town/city owned paper towels or paint, whatever. Cuz they're "privileged" and what the hell, honey, it's all bought and paid for by the sheep who say "Just pay the $25"...

Interestingly, I say this as I'm sitting across from the TEA PARTY MUSEUM on the Congress Street Bridge, reading NES before work, having a cup of coffee that I paid TAX on.

Yep, it's only 25 bucks for a " permit" to scratch my balls the next time sit in my own yard (that'll be the next "fee" we have to pay these f*cking scumsuckers) , so it's not a bad deal, I guess.

Unreal.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As for the caliber debate... Who ****ing knows. .22 is light and easy to travel with so you could take a fairly large supply with you. Both 9mm and 5.56 are more powerful but severely limit your quantities (both weigh about 2.7# per 100). As you pointed out, does it matter how many rounds you can carry if you don't survive the first 12 hours?

Figure out where you are going and how you are going to get there (likely only on foot)?? Roads will be a no-go unless you are deep in the woods already. I'm staying in place, so carrying anything is not in my game plan.

I would think a permit tells the FD to just evacuate your neighbors and let your house burn down.

I've had that discussion with 3 different fire chiefs. Not so in MA, they are trained to deal with it and know that their turn-out coats will stop anything "going off" unless you built a bomb out of your ammo stash.

------------------

As for long range shooting, I know that some here live deep in the woods and that is great. Most of us I'll venture live like I do in the suburbs. I have 11 houses within 500' of me, so any "long range" shooting is a no-go, as it would endanger innocents and that is not something I would do. Besides if someone is maneuvering around another neighbor's home, I'm not about to go after them. I also only have one neighbor worth helping and able to be an asset, he's a Russian immigrant who served in the Russian Army and knows how to shoot an AK off-hand accurately.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Or, better yet, say "F"*ck you and your permits, fees, taxes, permission slips, etc etc etc,.. all of which goes to pay for someone's cousin's niece to get the next job" opening "in town.. Or goes partially towards the DISGUSTING salary for a Massachusetts state rep or senator, etc etc...
Or just submit and comply and pay a f*cking ridiculous "fee" for a PERMISSION SLIP to plant f*cking daffodils on your own property, which will be the next fee they dream up. Hoping that - oops, strike that, make it KNOWING that the good citizens of MA will just comply and say "What the heck it's only $25", rather than fight the slimebag statist system suckers who talk and look at you like they're "better than you" because they ride around in a town-owned vehicle, pulling into their driveways and dropping off a case of town/city owned paper towels or paint, whatever. Cuz they're "privileged" and what the hell, honey, it's all bought and paid for by the sheep who say "Just pay the $25"...

Interestingly, I say this as I'm sitting across from the TEA PARTY MUSEUM on the Congress Street Bridge, reading NES before work, having a cup of coffee that I paid TAX on.

Yep, it's only 25 bucks for a " permit" to scratch my balls the next time sit in my own yard (that'll be the next "fee" we have to pay these f*cking scumsuckers) , so it's not a bad deal, I guess.

Unreal.

If you firmly believe in this, I suggest that you not pay your real estate taxes and see how it goes. The $5-25 fee for an ammo permit every 2-5 years doesn't pay many salaries. The $3-10K RE taxes people pay do indeed pay salaries of many.

Personally I think picking battles where you have a chance of winning is a much better strategy than dying on principle. YMMV

 

[bigblue]

If you firmly believe in this, I suggest that you not pay your real estate taxes and see how it goes. The $5-25 fee for an ammo permit every 2-5 years doesn't pay many salaries. The $3-10K RE taxes people pay do indeed pay salaries of many.

Personally I think picking battles where you have a chance of winning is a much better strategy than dying on principle. YMMV

I disagree Len: I don't think your mileage will vary much at all.

 

[garandman]

I'm curious what kind of situation can be resolved by no less than 3,000 rounds of 9mm?

Whenever I see someone with a long magazine on a defense gun, I like to ask, "What problem is solved by eight rounds of 12 ga that is not solved by four?

OP, I'd be spending money on first aid supplies and training before spending a lot more on handgun ammo. My experience is that a lot of "preppers" have enough guns and ammo for a lifetime, enough food for a month, enough water for a few days, and enough first aid supplies for an afternoon. Personally I think having a big supply of fuel, liquor or motor oil might be more useful than a big supply of ammo beyond a certain point.

The most likely calamity in New England is a Northeaster snow storm, followed by a storm like Hurricane Sandy, followed by - who knows? You can come up with many scenarios, and rank them, but in the end some are always going to be more likely than others.

 

[bigblue]

Whenever I see someone with a long magazine on a defense gun, I like to ask, "What problem is solved by eight rounds of 12 ga that is not solved by four?

I am at a loss for words right now. Oh wait, no I'm not. Damn boy, do you hold King Hussein's dick when he pisses on the constitution?

 

[xtry51]

I know it's much funnier that way but getting a permit for 1,200# of ammo that clearly isn't going mobile in SHTF does not preclude a capacity for training and survival.

If I needed to be mobile in SHTF I'm pretty sure a .50 cal can of .22 is the only stockpile coming with.

I'm not addressing anything other in this thread than the last line in this post, so try to stick with me on a side point here.

You need to seriously consider the mental/psychological aspect of carrying a 22LR and getting into a fire fight with someone shooting an AR15/AR10/AK.Even ignoring the penetration issues of what becomes cover vs concealment against 22LR, you need to consider the fear induced of being shot at by a large caliber rifle barking at you. Are you going to stay calm and collected enough to return fire knowing you're out gunned?

I can tell a difference when training if someone is using an AR10 and I'm using my 15. It's distracting even when you're fighting on the same side because you know that lead going down range is far more destructive.

 

[bigblue]

So your goal is to scare them away with your rifle? I thought your were a better shot than that.

 

[Len-2A Training]

A .22 definitely has it's purpose in a survival situation. Great for taking small game.

For self-defense, no thank you, I'll stick with things that make bigger holes or fragment (.223).

So there is a place for both/three at least, maybe four (bird hunting-shotgun).

 

[BTSDOG]

What makes you so brazenly certain?



It's a gd fire permit; it's not like you are telling the state how many rounds you have or what guns you own.


But it gives them a baseline to go from. What if you have an anti firechief ??
And i recall somewhere in a past post, that someone went to their chief for a permit, and he wanted to inspect how this person stored their ammo and powder. What do you do now ? ?

 

[xtry51]

So your goal is to scare them away with your rifle? I thought your were a better shot than that.

I know you're being cute, but partially, yeah. Duck behind a tree and 22LR barely audible hits it, no big deal. Hear a .308 round light off and a chunk of the tree you're behind disappears, fear becomes a wee bit more heightened.

Also, there's a lot of things that become cover, rather than just concealment, when 22LR is what's being lobbed at you versus something with more penetration. A vehicle for instance. A few fenders or doors won't stop a 5.56/7.62, but they are capable of stopping 22LR.

Just food for thought.

 

[Glock1911]

the fact that you need more than 1o rounds means you suck. one shot one kill , or one shot 2 kills, one shot three kills, you name it.

 

[jibbr71]

the fact that you need more than 1o rounds means you suck. one shot one kill , or one shot 2 kills, one shot three kills, you name it.

This guy right here....

 

[RG617]

I keep my Marlin 60 well lubed around the bolt and it can go through a entire brick without jamming, the thing rock and rolls. Wenth through 300 a few weeks ago in NH when I was with some friends.

Same goes for my 10/22 and MkIII. Only issues I've had is with Remington stuff, and it was so bad that I won't buy it any more. FTF has been extremely rare with the federal stuff I usually buy in bulk, and I don't think I've ever had it happen with CCI.

 

[Duxprep]

In a SHTF scenario I'm looking for something that will stop the threat quickly. That means massive damage to critical structures or a CNS shot. Even with 5.56 or greater a person isn't stopped unless those structures are damaged. There have been numerous threads on this the most recent having a great video by an anesthesiologist discussing calibers and related damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA) At the end of the day that means using a high powered round designed to cause damage (5.56, 308 , 7.62x39 etc.) NOT .22lr. 22lr has it's place for hunting small game , training younger shooters on marksmanship and perhaps nuisance of opposing forces but I sure wouldn't count on that alone to make it through any crisis

As far as stockpiling quantities go, you need enough to fight with for each rifle you have but more importantly you need 3x that amount to train with. Anyone who has ever taken a carbine class knows how quickly you can burn through 1k of ammo. Plan on at least 2K per gun to maintain your training and even more than that if you may have to train any new shooters. As Snacks stated it all comes down to who is best trained not who has the most guns and ammo.

Once you have enough for training then add as many thousand rounds as you think makes sense. It's a tough to know what that number should be because I have no idea how many rounds are used in an actual firefight or how many firefights I might ever expect to have. Buy as much as you can afford, and then buy some more as you can NEVER have too much as several posts have already explained.



my.02

 

[ChevyGuy91]

the fact that you need more than 1o rounds means you suck. one shot one kill , or one shot 2 kills, one shot three kills, you name it.

Thank you for bringing this thread to full blown aids.

 

[Da_lucche]

the fact that you need more than 1o rounds means you suck. one shot one kill , or one shot 2 kills, one shot three kills, you name it.

What's your COD user name?

 

[beaker]

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[xtry51]

In a SHTF scenario I'm looking for something that will stop the threat quickly. That means massive damage to critical structures or a CNS shot. Even with 5.56 or greater a person isn't stopped unless those structures are damaged. There have been numerous threads on this the most recent having a great video by an anesthesiologist discussing calibers and related damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA) At the end of the day that means using a high powered round designed to cause damage (5.56, 308 , 7.62x39 etc.) NOT .22lr. 22lr has it's place for hunting small game , training younger shooters on marksmanship and perhaps nuisance of opposing forces but I sure wouldn't count on that alone to make it through any crisis

As far as stockpiling quantities go, you need enough to fight with for each rifle you have but more importantly you need 3x that amount to train with. Anyone who has ever taken a carbine class knows how quickly you can burn through 1k of ammo. Plan on at least 2K per gun to maintain your training and even more than that if you may have to train any new shooters. As Snacks stated it all comes down to who is best trained not who has the most guns and ammo.

Once you have enough for training then add as many thousand rounds as you think makes sense. It's a tough to know what that number should be because I have no idea how many rounds are used in an actual firefight or how many firefights I might ever expect to have. Buy as much as you can afford, and then buy some more as you can NEVER have too much as several posts have already explained.



my.02

I shoot ~150rds per caliber during training. I try to train 2-3 times a month. That's 5,400rds per caliber per year without taking into account training classes.

A training class is typically 1,000+ rounds per day. I typically take two a year, so that's 5,000-6,000 rounds more.

So, just for training alone I'm using over 15,000 rounds of ammo per year.

 

[spt_1955]

Or, better yet, say "F"*ck you and your permits, fees, taxes, permission slips, etc etc etc,.. all of which goes to pay for someone's cousin's niece to get the next job" opening "in town.. Or goes partially towards the DISGUSTING salary for a Massachusetts state rep or senator, etc etc...
Or just submit and comply and pay a f*cking ridiculous "fee" for a PERMISSION SLIP to plant f*cking daffodils on your own property, which will be the next fee they dream up. Hoping that - oops, strike that, make it KNOWING that the good citizens of MA will just comply and say "What the heck it's only $25", rather than fight the slimebag statist system suckers who talk and look at you like they're "better than you" because they ride around in a town-owned vehicle, pulling into their driveways and dropping off a case of town/city owned paper towels or paint, whatever. Cuz they're "privileged" and what the hell, honey, it's all bought and paid for by the sheep who say "Just pay the $25"...

Interestingly, I say this as I'm sitting across from the TEA PARTY MUSEUM on the Congress Street Bridge, reading NES before work, having a cup of coffee that I paid TAX on.

Yep, it's only 25 bucks for a " permit" to scratch my balls the next time sit in my own yard (that'll be the next "fee" we have to pay these f*cking scumsuckers) , so it's not a bad deal, I guess.

Unreal.

Baaaa.... baaaaaa. Guess I'm just a sheep. Next time you schedule one of your actions to fight the slimebag statist system... count me in... but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to do something.

 

[jibbr71]

Or, better yet, say "F"*ck you and your permits, fees, taxes, permission slips, etc etc etc,.. all of which goes to pay for someone's cousin's niece....

Is she hot?

 

[garandman]

Those guys exist, but are probably outnumbered by the dude who has 10k or more stacked in the basement and couldn't make a mag change in his pistol(with one of his 2 spares) to save his life or know how to shoot from cover/concealment.

/That problem solves itself....

 

[atilla]

Or, better yet, say "F"*ck you and your permits, fees, taxes, permission slips, etc etc etc,.. all of which goes to pay for someone's cousin's niece to get the next job" opening "in town.. Or goes partially towards the DISGUSTING salary for a Massachusetts state rep or senator, etc etc...
Or just submit and comply and pay a f*cking ridiculous "fee" for a PERMISSION SLIP to plant f*cking daffodils on your own property, which will be the next fee they dream up. Hoping that - oops, strike that, make it KNOWING that the good citizens of MA will just comply and say "What the heck it's only $25", rather than fight the slimebag statist system suckers who talk and look at you like they're "better than you" because they ride around in a town-owned vehicle, pulling into their driveways and dropping off a case of town/city owned paper towels or paint, whatever. Cuz they're "privileged" and what the hell, honey, it's all bought and paid for by the sheep who say "Just pay the $25"...

Interestingly, I say this as I'm sitting across from the TEA PARTY MUSEUM on the Congress Street Bridge, reading NES before work, having a cup of coffee that I paid TAX on.

Yep, it's only 25 bucks for a " permit" to scratch my balls the next time sit in my own yard (that'll be the next "fee" we have to pay these f*cking scumsuckers) , so it's not a bad deal, I guess.

Unreal.

 

[FalArAk]

the fact that you need more than 1o rounds means you suck. one shot one kill , or one shot 2 kills, one shot three kills, you name it.

 

[GlockJock]

Baaaa.... baaaaaa. Guess I'm just a sheep. Next time you schedule one of your actions to fight the slimebag statist system... count me in... but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to do something.

Part of the problem in MA is that everyone waits for everyone else to be the one to stand up first. I've already been there, done that, and ended up more than slightly frustrated over the lack of participation, etc. Everyone in MA loves to bitch but then can't be bothered trying to change it. Some even laugh at those who try. I gave up trying.

 

[bigblue]

I shoot ~150rds per caliber during training. I try to train 2-3 times a month. That's 5,400rds per caliber per year without taking into account training classes.

A training class is typically 1,000+ rounds per day. I typically take two a year, so that's 5,000-6,000 rounds more.

So, just for training alone I'm using over 15,000 rounds of ammo per year.

My consumption is fairly close to yours minus the classes. I average 300-500 rounds per session 3-4 times per month in the summer, 200-400 twice a month in the winter. With some rudimentary averaging that puts me somewhere in the 10-20,000 per year range.

2,000 is not enough to stay sharp when your life is legit on the line for more than maybe a month. Survival scenario, do you scale back your training to conserve ammo and thus reduce your chance of survival? Tough questions.

 

[Supermoto]

Why would you be training during a survival situation?

 

[xtry51]

Why would you be training during a survival situation?

I was just using those numbers to show that it's not hard to reach large numbers of consumption.

 

[Supermoto]

I was just using those numbers to show that it's not hard to reach large numbers of consumption.

I understand where you are coming from.