House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[Quiet]

https://malegislature.gov/Events/Ev...&eventDataSource=VideoService&videoSource=sen

@ 13:20

She was bitching about collecting information about multiple gun sales that she supported as a trade-off for OGAM,

but that trade-off was removed by the committee.

Ahhh yes. Thanks. They have that info anyway in their database. They just need one programmer and 500 million dollars to outsource the development to India.... Who will hire one programmer.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I thought I heard some people claiming that it was previously not an arrestable offense, but now is?

Correct (as K. Dragger noted).

But, the important thing to note is that it was, and remains, a crime involving firearms for which a jail term may be imposed - and is thus a lifetime statutory DQ in MA.

 

[The5thDentist]

Great.

 

[milktree]

Correct (as K. Dragger noted).

But, the important thing to note is that it was, and remains, a crime involving firearms for which a jail term may be imposed - and is thus a lifetime statutory DQ in MA.

I'd really like to see a map that shows all the land owned by all the universities and colleges in the Boston area.

I bet you there's a bunch of buildings in Harvard Square that are owned by Harvard, but are are rented to retail stores and you'd have no way of knowing who the actual owner is. Bam! Instant felony!

There's this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Boston_college_town_map.png

but it's not really detailed enough to be useful.


Here's a curiosity I just noticed:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined... (blah blah blah bad stuff happens to you)

I understood that even locked in a case in the trunk was a violation, but this seems to suggest otherwise.

Does "carries on his person" mean something completely different than it sounds like?

 

[The5thDentist]

When this is done, Len, how about a webinar on this stuff?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Personal call from Jim Timilty

I just got off the phone with Senator Timilty, he called me specifically about section 59 (he will keep me updated on that section and I will keep you all updated) but also to give me some background on what he and Bruce Tarr and Rep Petersen did through this whole process and how great they were and in this liberal state for us to avoid all the stuff from Creem, Diaz, and Linsky, which could have happened except for all the work that was one in the halls and on the floor. He also touched on the number of people who came out to the hearings pro 2A where 7-8 years ago you didn't see that many because we gun owners figured we were screwed anyway (I think some of it is the internet allows us to organize)

I was amazed at all of the politicing that when on over this bill. Also he mentioned his concern about the rights of gun owners and our rights under the Constitution.

Jim gave a huge nod to Tarr and Petersen, but especially Tarr! Jim feels that next year the makeup of the Legislature will even more liberal but doesn't see any real gun bills coming up for 5 or 6 years and that is why it was important to get something this year that didn't totally screw us.

I agree with both Jim Timilty and Jim Wallace that with the exception of the FID issue, was a fairly good bill. He also feels that the May Issue FID will end up in Court and that the Court will slap down the Legislature and tell them you cannot trample on peoples Constitutional rights like that.

A big shout out to Jim Timilty and Bruce Tarr.

 

[milktree]

I agree with both Jim Timilty and Jim Wallace that with the exception of the FID issue,...

... and the "universal background check" crap.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

That too

 

[LoginName]

I just got off the phone with Senator Timilty, he called me specifically about section 59 (he will keep me updated on that section and I will keep you all updated) but also to give me some background on what he and Bruce Tarr and Rep Petersen did through this whole process and how great they were and in this liberal state for us to avoid all the stuff from Creem, Diaz, and Linsky, which could have happened except for all the work that was one in the halls and on the floor. He also touched on the number of people who came out to the hearings pro 2A where 7-8 years ago you didn't see that many because we gun owners figured we were screwed anyway (I think some of it is the internet allows us to organize)

I was amazed at all of the politicing that when on over this bill. Also he mentioned his concern about the rights of gun owners and our rights under the Constitution.

Jim gave a huge nod to Tarr and Petersen, but especially Tarr! Jim feels that next year the makeup of the Legislature will even more liberal but doesn't see any real gun bills coming up for 5 or 6 years and that is why it was important to get something this year that didn't totally screw us.

I agree with both Jim Timilty and Jim Wallace that with the exception of the FID issue, was a fairly good bill. He also feels that the May Issue FID will end up in Court and that the Court will slap down the Legislature and tell them you cannot trample on peoples Constitutional rights like that.

A big shout out to Jim Timilty and Bruce Tarr.

I appreciate the time, effort and commitment Tarr, Peterson and Timilty put into keeping the dogs at bay, but did he

offer any explanation, or reason, why the effective date for sec 59 was moved from 01/15 to 01/21?

 

[pastera]

Incompetence

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I appreciate the time, effort and commitment Tarr, Peterson and Timilty put into keeping the dogs at bay, but did he

offer any explanation, or reason, why the effective date for sec 59 was moved from 01/15 to 01/21?

It had something to do with Creem having a fit as I remember, I don't remember exactly, said the errata was driving Diaz and Creem nuts and stuff was moving fast and very crazy. He is going to see what he can do to get it back to 2015

 

[wolfenkraft]

It had something to do with Creem having a fit as I remember, I don't remember exactly, said the errata was driving Diaz and Creem nuts and stuff was moving fast and very crazy. He is going to see what he can do to get it back to 2015

I'm so embarrassed that Creem is my senator. I called her office several times and they never seemed interested at all in what I had to say, I just hope she has an opponent in the next election.

 

[PaulD]

I just got off the phone with Senator Timilty, he called me specifically about section 59 (he will keep me updated on that section and I will keep you all updated) but also to give me some background on what he and Bruce Tarr and Rep Petersen did through this whole process and how great they were and in this liberal state for us to avoid all the stuff from Creem, Diaz, and Linsky, which could have happened except for all the work that was one in the halls and on the floor. He also touched on the number of people who came out to the hearings pro 2A where 7-8 years ago you didn't see that many because we gun owners figured we were screwed anyway (I think some of it is the internet allows us to organize)

I was amazed at all of the politicing that when on over this bill. Also he mentioned his concern about the rights of gun owners and our rights under the Constitution.

Jim gave a huge nod to Tarr and Petersen, but especially Tarr! Jim feels that next year the makeup of the Legislature will even more liberal but doesn't see any real gun bills coming up for 5 or 6 years and that is why it was important to get something this year that didn't totally screw us.

I agree with both Jim Timilty and Jim Wallace that with the exception of the FID issue, was a fairly good bill. He also feels that the May Issue FID will end up in Court and that the Court will slap down the Legislature and tell them you cannot trample on peoples Constitutional rights like that.

A big shout out to Jim Timilty and Bruce Tarr.

First, Ben, thanks for all this and thanks to Timilty and Tarr.

It's encouraging that we have legislators like that, but discouraging in terms of where they think things are headed.

 

[Rehoboth Dave]

Well Jim Timilty will continue to have my vote, that's for sure. Steve Howitt as well. Both of them are stand up guys in my book.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If he doesn't sign it, it becomes law anyway. The only other outcome would be if he vetoes it.

No it does not. Look up the term "pocket veto". I thought like you did and in discussion with someone else, checked this out. He must sign it to become law since the legislative formal session is over.

When this is done, Len, how about a webinar on this stuff?

Sorry, no webinars or free lunches. I've got too much blood, sweat and tears into this stuff to give it away. As it is, I give away a tremendous amount on here, much more than a wise businessman would do.

You'll have to attend a seminar or arrange for the seminar to be held at your gun club (I did 3 of these in May) for a flat fee, thus cost/person was peanuts (or club absorbed it).

 

[OfficerObie59]

You and I, and most here, know know most of the laws. We are a tiny percentage.

Anyone here a member of the "Guns of MA" Facebook page? Some of the legal questions there will blow your mind.

 

[OfficerObie59]

10s of thousands of guys (and gals) are screwed now with crippled LTCs. How many will be denied FIDs under this scheme? 10s of thousands or a handful? And how many of those will be won at the hearing?
There are only what, 30,000 FIDs in total, IIRC? And most of those are probably Old Geezers who just want their shotty. We have no clue of how many denials there might be. You could be right and there will be some massive number of revocations starting tomorrow, or whenever it takes effect. I really doubt it.

It's not about "screw them, I've got mine" at all. It's about "Look what we may have just done for Boston, Cambridge, Brookline, Worcester and Newton"

Oh yeah... and we got rid of the FID for pepper spray for adults. Is that worthless too?

C'mon. I know parts really suck, but we're actually making progress. It's not a straight line.

I actually have both an FID and an LTC. My employer, who is my LTC issuing authority, has seen fit to play games with suitability in employment-related matters.

I have an FID from another licensing authority, the town I live in, so that I could keep my non-large cap firearms should I get caught in my PD's unsuitable crosshairs.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I, for one, am glad FIDs are now may issue. That's right, glad.

FIDs are a goddamn farce and have been since '98. I don't own one gun that's allowable without an LTC and I don't give a crap about hunting with a bolt action rifle or shooting trap with an O/U shotgun. If those were the only guns available in this country, I probably never would have bothered buying a gun at all. Maybe this will finally make the FUDs have a clue and it gets us one step closer to overturning the may issue LTCs, which is what really matters.

Back to your regularly scheduled bitching.

Some of us don't own all large cap stuff.

Again, as someone who has an FID as a pseudo insurance policy against suitability, that insurance is now mostly ineffective.

 

[30Mauser]

You're welcome.

I apologize, you were right. I misread your statement as a repetition of the original proposal to list all guns you DO have at renewal, which I've seen erroneously repeated a number of times.

Failure to pay proper attention on my part here... sorry!

 

[MA_Shooter]

I agree with both Jim Timilty and Jim Wallace that with the exception of the FID issue, was a fairly good bill. He also feels that the May Issue FID will end up in Court and that the Court will slap down the Legislature and tell them you cannot trample on peoples Constitutional rights like that.

A big shout out to Jim Timilty and Bruce Tarr.

Why would they expect a court to treat an FID any differently than an LTC (wrt 'may issue')?

 

[Squire]

If the FID suitability petition is so great, then GOAL should mobilize to get the law changed accordingly for LTC A restrictions:None.

I don't like the compromise, but the momentum is there to go after:

LTC denial/restrictions judicial review like FID
AG authority and compliant arms repeal
AWB repeal

Legal gun owners in MA are now under more scrutiny and judgement than ever, why then should it matter which firearms we can have if we can have any?

 

[inerlogic]

Legal gun owners in MA are now under more scrutiny and judgement than ever, why then should it matter which firearms we can have if we can have any?

Because the end game is, they don't want anyone to have any firearms.....

Sent from my EVO 4G LTE using Forum Runner

 

[pastera]

If the FID suitability petition is so great, then GOAL should mobilize to get the law changed accordingly for LTC A restrictions:None.

That is exactly what the language was meant for instead of the FID, except with a 30 window for the COP to petition the court instead of a 90 day window. However, the 90 day window as written is better as it is a hard timeline after which the license is issued.

This would be the best route to a shall issue LTC in Mass - Judicial reveiw of denials/restrictions -> Judical review of REQUESTS for denial/restrictions -> standards for denial/restrictions codified in law.

 

[Coyote33]

How many days left for governor Patrick to sign this? If not, it was all just a futile exercise.

ature. The legislature worked until after midnight Thursday, the last day of the legislative session, to pass a host of bills, some of which were just released from committees of conference within the last two days. As a result, a number of the bills had errors, which needed to be fixed with corrective documents.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/gov_deval_patrick_has_favorabl.html

 

[pastera]

How many days left for governor Patrick to sign this? If not, it was all just a futile exercise.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/gov_deval_patrick_has_favorabl.html

Ten days is the 10th
Ten business days is the 14th

However, who knows when the bill "hit his desk" so when does the clock start ticking?

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

If the FID suitability petition is so great, then GOAL should mobilize to get the law changed accordingly for LTC A restrictions:None.

I don't like the compromise, but the momentum is there to go after:

LTC denial/restrictions judicial review like FID
AG authority and compliant arms repeal
AWB repeal

Legal gun owners in MA are now under more scrutiny and judgement than ever, why then should it matter which firearms we can have if we can have any?

I think what the state is doing with this FID suitability standard is 'test driving' a legal scheme that they might want to use once a court forces them to deal with the problem of totally discretionary LTCs. There are people in the state and on Beacon Hill who know EXACTLY where the vulnerabilities lie. The revised FID statute does give licensing authorities some discretion over issuance of FIDs but it shifts some (but not enough) of the burden to the licensing authorities to convince a court that an applicant is 'unsuitable'. This will be their first option for a quick fix when a court hits them over the broad discretion that chiefs have over LTCs.

 

[GlockJock]

10s of thousands of guys (and gals) are screwed now with crippled LTCs. How many will be denied FIDs under this scheme? 10s of thousands or a handful? And how many of those will be won at the hearing?
There are only what, 30,000 FIDs in total, IIRC? And most of those are probably Old Geezers who just want their shotty. We have no clue of how many denials there might be. You could be right and there will be some massive number of revocations starting tomorrow, or whenever it takes effect. I really doubt it.

It's not about "screw them, I've got mine" at all. It's about "Look what we may have just done for Boston, Cambridge, Brookline, Worcester and Newton"

Oh yeah... and we got rid of the FID for pepper spray for adults. Is that worthless too?

C'mon. I know parts really suck, but we're actually making progress. It's not a straight line.

This

 

[CobaltBlueSteel]

Maybe more people will show up to rallies now

 

[GlockJock]

It's wrong plain and simple and I dont GAF when shall issue FID will be beat in court. It will take YEARS and THOUSANDS of dollars to do so, while good people get screwed so you call can say "Well it could have been worse, I have my LTC so screw you guys...."
Yeah dude I dont need to reevaluate shit.

It is wrong, indeed, Derek..BUT...you know, as well as I and everyone else here, that one of the biggest problems in the US, according to the wingnuts/moonies, etc, is the "easy access to firearms" blah blah blah.....They despise us, and the NRA, and everyone in this land who believes in the RKBA. The political, ideological standoff and pissing match over this has been ongoing for decades now, seemingly centuries here in MassaMooonbat.

But then came SandyHook, and the game REALLY changed. And, for us, changed for the worse. And while you, I, and everyone else pro-2A knows it was an isolated crime of opportunity (and incredible stupidity/ignorance by a parent), the nation changed dramatically that afternoon. Then the crocodile-tears by the Kenyan Confiscator-in-Chief a few days later was worthy of an emmy...The whole game changed that week, and changed for the worse for us 2A-ers.

And as badly as this bill sucks (like ANY gun bill in MA), the fact of the matter is that it is, compared to what we all thought would happen during the phony traveling "dog and pony show" hearings in advance of "new legislation to be proposed", the bill actually is almost a godsend.

Look, am I the only one who was ALMOST 100% SURE that the nitwits at the state house would pull a NewYork/New Jersey/Connecticut on us? Am I the only one who figured Deval was fully erect over the thought of now having the opportunity to do even WORSE damage to his state than the leaders in NY, NJ, CT, etc did to their constituents??

Didn't most of us, IN REALITY, think that this "process" was gonna suck even WORSE, especially given the mood of the country over "G-G-G-GUNS!!!!"??? Pepper spray legal? I figured they'd go the other way and restricted RAID, Black Flag, or even friggin' PAM cooking spray. Seriously, you KNOW state senator Creem-face probably has that one, or something similar, already written up for the next go-round over this...

Derek, I f*cking despise this state as much as anyone here, and yes, would give up an arm and a leg to have gun laws akin to Arizona, Florida, Kentucky, NH, etc, but, reality for those of us "forced" to remain and live here? The fact that we can still carry even "Master-Blaster" squirtguns in this CommonPuke is actually a shocker, given recent events and their effect on the general, media-brainwashed "guns are evil" public. The bill sucks-suckss-SUCKS, but Jesus, it really coulda sucked even worse. And yeah, I know, and can already see the posts to follow: "Typical MA gun owner accepting a little lube with his anal violation".

But the fact that we didn't get screwed even worse is, when you think about it, nothing short of a miracle in this Commie dictatorship ruled by a pinhead who salivates at the sight of his close friend sitting in the oval office issuing unconstitutional "executive orders"...

It's NOT a good bill. But .......

 

[92G]

i am looking forward to "one gun a month" so i can start saving $$ again.