House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[pastera]

Anyone know, with our new "Universal Background Check" system, if the 4 limit p/y remains?

Yes it does

 

[MA_Shooter]

You still need a denial from the right plaintiff. I do not think they can challenge it on its face until the issue is ripe (i.e., we have an actual plaintiff denied and harmed). CLO's, if they are smart, would only use this for the worst reprobates. That said, even then, if the are not a PP I think it still must fail as it really is too subjective. If they used terms like "credible threat to cause injury to the public" they would have been on better ground and a "preponderances of evidence" standard is not likely going to work for a fundamental right.

The COP's will be advised by Marcia and company as how to carefully craft their denials so as not to draw legal scrutiny, or mitigate the chance of a lawsuit. The State has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to abrogate your rights. And they have the courts. Relief will need to come from a Federal (or district) court, if you can afford it.

 

[rchap36]

Tell that to the 18 year old kid that got in one too many fights in high school and wants to hunt ducks or shoot trap when he comes home on leave.

Derek thats ok we (whats that word I'm looking 4) compromise thats the one

 

[RadiCS]

From what it sounds like GOAL, should have said we did our best and the bill is not as bad as it was but as an organization that supports the 2a - we cannot support this bill.

I wonder if deval is going to use this when he runs for president, like Romney did.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

The COP's will be advised by Marcia and company as how to carefully craft their denials so as not to draw legal scrutiny, or mitigate the chance of a lawsuit. The State has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal to abrogate your rights. And they have the courts. Relief will need to come from a Federal (or district) court, if you can afford it.

That won't be the AG. EOPSS will be advising the chiefs on how to draft their denials. They're already doing that to some degree as denials are usually a form letter generated from MIRCS.

 

[StevieP]

Tell that to the 18 year old kid that got in one too many fights in high school and wants to hunt ducks or shoot trap when he comes home on leave.

Do police chiefs routinely search through school records as part of their background checking? Unless the kid got arrested for assault, how would a CoP know about such things? Would the (new) school resource officers be responsible for reporting such school-based offenses to his bosses back at the station?

And what of ANY of this suitability nonsense applies if someone with a questionable background need only move before submitting his application?

 

[Bill Katt]

Do police chiefs routinely search through school records as part of their background checking? Unless the kid got arrested for assault, how would a CoP know about such things? Would the (new) school resource officers be responsible for reporting such school-based offenses to his bosses back at the station?

And what of ANY of this suitability nonsense applies if someone with a questionable background need only move before submitting his application?

Well, if it's on your "Permanent Record"..............

 

[Beretta92FS]

So what's the deal? Has the jackasses at Beacon Hill voted on this yet?

 

[MikeInMA]

So what's the deal? Has the jackasses at Beacon Hill voted on this yet?

No, there is still daylight. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the last thing they do before scurrying off to vacation.

 

[Wildweasel]

Here is a copy of the letters to the reps.(in case it has not been posted yet. (from REP Kocot)
Gun Owners' Action League
July 31, 2014

July 31, 2014



Dear Legislators:

Before you today is an historic opportunity. Never before has our Legislature seen a piece of legislation concerning gun trafficking and public safety that is supported so widely by so many-including Gun Owners' Action League (GOAL).

The deliberations in the House built a great foundation, upon which the Senate added, eventually crafting a conference committee bill that GOAL can and will support. We are excited to have been a part of the process to craft this unique and historic piece of legislation you will be voting on today.

Through the process, we were able to carefully craft a proposal that includes:

Improving School safety planning;
Upgrading National Instant Check System (NICS) information our states sends;
Enhancing mental health background checks;
Greater suicide prevention programs;
Making firearm background checks consistent with federal policy;
Creating the Criminal Firearms and Trafficking Division of the State Police;
Centralizing firearm crime scene data collection;
Heightening illegal firearm trafficking crimes and punishments;
Creating a new charge for committing burglary with the intent to steal firearms;
Creating a new charge of giving a prohibited person a firearm;
Reforming the firearm licensing process,
A variety of legal reforms that gun owners have long needed

While no legislation is perfect, many people have worked extremely hard to make this piece of legislation work.

We, at GOAL, are proud to help make history today.



Sincerely,



Jim Wallace

Executive Director

Gun Owners' Action League


(My comment-) I can't support it if the FID is not shall issue.

I just got a claification from Jim-
Glen,

The language is greatly different in that the chief would actually have to petition a court and present a credible case against someone. This also gives us the ability to publicly track what they are doing and expose abuses. Frankly it is a slap to the chiefs.

Jim Wallace
www.GOAL.org

(again my comment-) But I am still not happy with this.

 

[RadiCS]

I think Jim is confused on who he works for... sounds like the brady campaign.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Do police chiefs routinely search through school records as part of their background checking? Unless the kid got arrested for assault, how would a CoP know about such things? Would the (new) school resource officers be responsible for reporting such school-based offenses to his bosses back at the station?

And what of ANY of this suitability nonsense applies if someone with a questionable background need only move before submitting his application?

In my current town, there is an incident report generated (and usually charges filed) for every fight in/near/or not near the schools. These are then all permanent court records.

 

[Squire]

.

 

[Beansie]

AGREED.AGREED.


I believe we have eliminated CoP blanket policies on restrictions.
.

I missed this part of the bill. Where is this?

And any idea if this is retro to someone still in their "temp" restriction period?

 

[PaulD]

Did the part about current and retired LEO being exempt from the AWB make it in?

 

[yanici]

Some of you guys just can't get it. THIS MA! If you want Utopia you ain't ever gonna find it here. Count your blessings that you didn't get hit with a big turd instead of the bill that IS GOING TO PASS.

 

[Jbarila]

So what has happened? Derailed a really brutal anti gun coalition, Softened a bill to the point it really doesnt matter. The FID issue is livable and will be litigated. Got me off my lazy ass to lobby every crappy polititian in this state. Got me to become a monthly donor to Com2A. Got many at my club off their lazy asses to lobby. I'd say things are looking up in this crappy state for a change. IMHO

 

[lagrangian]

Here's GOAL's latest message (from their website):

Dear Members: Please contact your legislator today and ask that they support H.4376, released last night by the conference committee.

Never before has our Legislature concurred on a bill concerning gun trafficking and public safety that is supported so widely by so many-including Gun Owners' Action League (GOAL).

You might have heard a lot of things in regard to this bill, to set the record straight; this bill is a net gain for licensed gun owners.

Gains for gun owners include:

Juniors:
• Critical training language correction for juniors corrected which now allows trainers to provide firearms to junior shooters and hunters with parental consent
• Allow junior to apply for their FID card a year early (age 14) and receive their card at 15.

Pepper Spray:
• Person over the age of 18 will no longer need an FID card to purchase pepper spray
• 15-17 year old can still possess – but must have an FID card

FID:
• Chiefs must first petition the court to deny someone his/her FID card.
• Because it is in the courts, it gives GOAL and others the ability to track what Chiefs are doing

Both licenses:
• The term "prohibited person" is now being used for both licenses – instead of "suitable"
• This change in the language provides a much need change in framework around whom is prohibited
• The 90 day grace period - license renewal issue was fixed. Gun owners will now receive a receipt upon renewal, which makes the license valid until the new license is received.

Mental Health:
• Added language so that people who voluntary seek mental health help will not be listed as a prohibited person

Olympic-style Handguns:
• There will be exemptions for the sale of Olympic-style handguns in the Commonwealth
• They were previously not allowed to be sold in the Commonwealth.

Curios and Relic Collectors:
• Collectors can now purchase handguns and firearms that may not comply with the approved firearms roster

Online portal:
• Created online portal for face-to-face transfers
• GOAL stopped a measure that would have ended private sales

LTC:
• We got rid of the Class B License to Carry and made all one LTC license
• We shifted the burden for LTC denials to police chiefs
• Chiefs now have to put denials in writing
• For the first time, gun owners can appeal their LTC restrictions in District Court
• Now the burden of proof is on the police chief to defend the denial or restriction in District Court and in writing

Confiscation:
• We added language that if your firearms get confiscated that the licensing authority shall at that time inform the person in writing of their ability to transfer their firearms to an independent licensed individual

Lost & Stolen Firearm:
• GOAL put in language so that a person who, in good faith, reports their firearm as lost or stolen – this shall not make them considered a prohibited person – period.

Military Veterans:
• We extended the time period a Veteran has to become licensed, or renew their license to 180 days from 90 days.
• We exempted veterans from having to take the mandatory gun safety training classes

Please call your legislator today and ask that they support H.4376.

Sincerely,


Jim Wallace

Executive Director

http://goal.org/alert-defeat-chapter-180-part2.html

 

[Serapis]

GOAL GOAL GOAL!!!!!! Whooooooaaaaaaaa!!!!!








YOU SUCK. You forgot what you are fighting for. You have lost your way and you have lost my money. That letter and follow up from Wallace wants me to throw up.

This is not a victory. It doesn't massively suck, but the attitude of how great we made out is a complete spin from the truth.

 

[StevieP]

FID:
• Chiefs must first petition the court to deny someone his/her FID card.
• Because it is in the courts, it gives GOAL and others the ability to track what Chiefs are doing


LTC:
• We got rid of the Class B License to Carry and made all one LTC license
• We shifted the burden for LTC denials to police chiefs
• Chiefs now have to put denials in writing
• For the first time, gun owners can appeal their LTC restrictions in District Court
• Now the burden of proof is on the police chief to defend the denial or restriction in District Court and in writing

Why are these processes different from each other?

 

[MrJones79]

So what has happened? Derailed a really brutal anti gun coalition, Softened a bill to the point it really doesnt matter. The FID issue is livable and will be litigated. Got me off my lazy ass to lobby every crappy polititian in this state. Got me to become a monthly donor to Com2A. Got many at my club off their lazy asses to lobby. I'd say things are looking up in this crappy state for a change. IMHO

Agreed. We got the best we could hope for with this. It's not perfect by any means, but I'd hate to see what they come with next session if this bill dies. We fought the good fight, and all of us NES folk did a great job at putting the pressure on and getting some needed change in the bill. Let's face it - MA will never be Texas, Kentucky, etc with respect to gun laws unless the courts make it that way.

 

[DrNVP]

You might have heard a lot of things in regard to this bill, to set the record straight; this bill is a net gain for licensed gun owners.



Gains for gun owners include:



Juniors:

• Critical training language correction for juniors corrected which now allows trainers to provide firearms to junior shooters and hunters with parental consent

• Allow junior to apply for their FID card a year early (age 14) and receive their card at 15.



Pepper Spray:

• Person over the age of 18 will no longer need an FID card to purchase pepper spray

• 15-17 year old can still possess – but must have an FID card



FID:

• Chiefs must first petition the court to deny someone his/her FID card.

• Because it is in the courts, it gives GOAL and others the ability to track what Chiefs are doing



Both licenses:

• The term "prohibited person" is now being used for both licenses – instead of "suitable"

• This change in the language provides a much need change in framework around whom is prohibited

• The 90 day grace period - license renewal issue was fixed. Gun owners will now receive a receipt upon renewal, which makes the license valid until the new license is received.



Mental Health:

• Added language so that people who voluntary seek mental health help will not be listed as a prohibited person



Olympic-style Handguns:

• There will be exemptions for the sale of Olympic-style handguns in the Commonwealth

• They were previously not allowed to be sold in the Commonwealth.



Curios and Relic Collectors:

• Collectors can now purchase handguns and firearms that may not comply with the approved firearms roster



Online portal:

• Created online portal for face-to-face transfers

• GOAL stopped a measure that would have ended private sales



LTC:

• We got rid of the Class B License to Carry and made all one LTC license

• We shifted the burden for LTC denials to police chiefs

• Chiefs now have to put denials in writing

• For the first time, gun owners can appeal their LTC restrictions in District Court

• Now the burden of proof is on the police chief to defend the denial or restriction in District Court and in writing



Confiscation:

• We added language that if your firearms get confiscated that the licensing authority shall at that time inform the person in writing of their ability to transfer their firearms to an independent licensed individual



Lost & Stolen Firearm:

• GOAL put in language so that a person who, in good faith, reports their firearm as lost or stolen – this shall not make them considered a prohibited person – period.



Military Veterans:

• We extended the time period a Veteran has to become licensed, or renew their license to 180 days from 90 days.

• We exempted veterans from having to take the mandatory gun safety training classes

Summary from GOAL

 

[lagrangian]

Certainly, I'm not thrilled with the "isn't this so wonderful" tone. I would have gone with a "There are some flaws, especially FID suitability, but overall we believe it is a net win and therefore should be supported" tone.

 

[Horrible]

School shootings 1970–1975, according to Wikipedia:

• January 5, 1970: Washington, DC, Tyrone Perry, 15, was shot to death at Hine Junior High School.[SUP][198][/SUP]
• May 4, 1970: Kent, Ohio, During protests of the Vietnam War on the college Campus of Kent State University, Armed National Guard Soldiers opened fire on unarmed students killing four people.[SUP][199][/SUP]
• May 15, 1970: Jackson, Mississippi, One student was killed and twelve others injured when police open fired on students gathered to protest the military presence in Cambodia

[SUP][200][/SUP]* February 2, 1971: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Teacher Samson L. Freedman, 56, was shot to death as he left Morris E. Leeds School, by Kevin Simmons, 14. Freedman had suspended Simmons earlier in the day for cursing in the hallway.[SUP][201][/SUP]

• November 8, 1971: Grove, Oklahoma, School custodian, Jim "James" Underwood brought a .22 caliber revolver to school hidden in a brown paper bag. School principal, T. J. Melton, 49, was shot in the left shoulder, left ear and in the top of his head, according to published reports. He died around 9 a.m. and Underwood was charged the next day with first-degree murder.[SUP][202][/SUP]
• November 11, 1971: Spokane, Washington, Former MIT student Larry J. Harmon, 21, entered St. Aloysius Roman Catholic Church on the Gonzaga University campus armed with a .22 caliber rifle. Harmon killed the caretaker, 68-year-old Hilary Kunz, and upon emerging from the church, wounded four more people before police officers shot and killed him. Harmon was described by his father as a religious fanatic who believed that he had seen the devil and that Christ was an imposter.[SUP][203][/SUP]
• January 5, 1972: Washington, DC, Fifth-grade teacher Margaret Brooks, 57, was shot to death in front of her students by her estranged husband James A. Brooks.[SUP][204][/SUP]
• February 26, 1973: Richmond, Virginia, Wayne Phillips, 17, was shot to death when he was caught between two youths who were fighting in the hallway of Armstrong High School.[SUP][205][/SUP]
• October 1, 1973: Elmwood Park, Illinois, Elmwood Park Community High School student Cynthia Schulze was shot and killed in the hallway between classes by student William Rossi, with whom she was probably not acquainted. Rossi then ran out of the school and shot himself to death in an alley nearby.[SUP][206][/SUP]
• January 17, 1974: Chicago, Illinois, Elementary school principal Rudolph Jezek, Jr., 52, was shot to death in his office by Steven Guy, 14, a former student said to be angry at being transferred from the school to a social adjustment center.[SUP][207][/SUP]
• March 22, 1974: Brownstown, Indiana, Jessie Blevins, 48, athletic director at Brownstown Central High School, was shot to death in the school parking lot by a 17-year-old student.[SUP][208][/SUP]
• December 30, 1974: Olean, New York, Regents scholar Anthony Barbaro, 17, armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.[SUP][209][/SUP][SUP][210][/SUP]
• February 18, 1975: Marist College, Poughkeepsie, New York, Marist College student Shelley Lynn Sperling was shot and killed by a scorned suitor, Louis o. Acevedo, in the Marist College cafeteria.[SUP][211][/SUP]
• September 11, 1975: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, U.S. Grant High School student Randy Truitt was shot and killed by James Briggs at the school, leaving several others injured.[SUP][212][/SUP]

But more widely reported and propagandized these days. The media and pols use these school shootings as justification to take your rights away to make it seem like things are getting more violent and dangerous and that "something needs to be done" to stop it!! When the reality is mass shootings have not increased, although gun control has (at least in MA).

 

[7OGlock]

Do police chiefs routinely search through school records as part of their background checking? Unless the kid got arrested for assault, how would a CoP know about such things? Would the (new) school resource officers be responsible for reporting such school-based offenses to his bosses back at the station?

And what of ANY of this suitability nonsense applies if someone with a questionable background need only move before submitting his application?

Don't give them ideas.... I'm actually surprised that no one has tried to sneak in school records somewhere. A few years ago I would have thought the notion insane, but look at all the mental Heath crap they have talked about. Who the hell would ever go in for mental health treatment knowing some would want to deny them their rights for doing so. Nevertheless we now know that there are clearly plenty of morons who would actually push for laws that would create such a situation.

As long as people stick their head in the sand without looking at the big picture, things can only get worse. Mass isn't actually as moon batty as some states though (don't misread that it's plenty moon batty) and I don't think this is entirely inevitable (although probable). To have any hope we need to do a better job of clarifying the picture. In 1975 for example the media din't have an agenda like they do today. The question is how to point out real logic to the masses when every time someone tries it's drowned out it in buzzing noise?


Anyway, back to the bill, I'm not sure, but this doesn't seem like a win. Requiring a judge to sign off on rejected FIDs isn't the same as requiring them to sign off on rejected LTCs. Does the bill do so? Otherwise it isn't doing anything to reduce red towns and will only create more. Compromise can be real or can just be noise. Here I tend to think noise, but I hope I'm wrong. Unfortunately I can't figure out what actually happened with all the noise in this thread LOL. It would be nice to have a summary of the facts somewhere though.

 

[exo]

Lost & Stolen Firearm:
• GOAL put in language so that a person who, in good faith, reports their firearm as lost or stolen – this shall not make them considered a prohibited person – period.

Well, it's not that simple. The text of the bill:

Notwithstanding this paragraph or any general or special law to the contrary, no person, who in good faith, reports a loss or theft under this paragraph for the first time shall be subject to suspension, revocation or be considered unsuitable under section 131 for the renewal of a lawfully held firearm identification card or license to carry firearms; provided, however, that persons reporting loss or theft under this paragraph or under section 129B on a second or subsequent occasion may be subject to suspension, revocation or be considered unsuitable under said section 131 for the renewal of a lawfully held firearm identification card or license to carry firearms.

So yeah, you get a free pass for being a victim of firearms theft once, but if you're the victim of firearms theft twice you can become a victim of your chief yanking your license.

 

[yanici]

GOAL stated:

We exempted veterans from having to take the mandatory gun safety training classes

Please clarify this. I quickly perused the bill and I believe this freedom from taking the class only applies to current members of the armed services, not all veterans. Which is correct?

 

[DrNVP]

Well, it's not that simple. The text of the bill:



So yeah, you get a free pass for being a victim of firearms theft once, but if you're the victim of firearms theft twice you can become a victim of your chief yanking your license.

Your chief can yank your license the first time you get your guns stolen as it stands currently

 

[aeromarine]

Even if this did happen though, odds of throwing out the whole "enchilada" are slim to none, more likely they will throw out that tiny part of the bill and licensing scheme and the legislator will quickly re-write yet another crappy "compromise" to weasel their way around it. The pols know this and probably want it in there knowing this as it is softball for comm2a et al. That ties up their money on this lawsuit and keeping it away from attacks on other parts of the bill.

This is exactly what the state did after losing the court decision about free speech and the right to demonstrate at abortion clinics. The old law was not closer than 35 feet and then new one designed to replace it specifies 25 feet. I'm sure the legislature would try to do the same with any gun laws the courts try to whittle away. So much for the concept of "settled law" when it come to liberal causes! They never give up until they get what they want.

 

[exo]

Your chief can yank your license the first time you get your guns stolen as it stands currently

So it's an improvement, but it's not as open and shut as GOAL is making it out to be. "this shall not make them considered a prohibited person – period." Except if it happens again.