House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[Coyote33]

Yanici, our boy Barry doesn't realize an FID has been Shall Issue since 1968. I don't see 1 case a year where an individual shoots up some place with a gun purchased under his FID.

I am wondering if ANY of them understand this. Nobody is TAKING AWAY suitability/discretion from the chiefs. It was never there. The Senate bill merely does not now instate it.

Might as well consider that ship as having sailed insofar as paper forms. This is 2014, not 1914. I haven't kept paper files of any kind, neither business nor personal, for the past 10+ years, and that started in many environments well before then.

Not me, and probably not most people. I'd rather there be NO files, either paper or electronic!

Got NRA alert, looks like they recommend people contact their own senator and rep - and ask them to influence members of committee. (instead of directly contacting committee members)

Conferees have now been appointed by the state Senate and House of Representatives to work out the differences between Senate Bill 2265 and House Bill 4285 in a conference committee. The following state legislators will serve on this conference committee and will be the policy makers who decide whether anti-gun provisions are added back into S.2265:

Senator Anthony Petruccelli (D - First Suffolk and Middlesex) 617-722-1634
Senator Bruce Tarr (R - First Essex and Middlesex) 617-722-1600
Senator James Timilty (D – Bristol and Norfolk) 617-722-1222
Representative George Peterson (R - Ninth Worcester) 617-722-2100
Representative Ronald Mariano (D -Third Norfolk) 617-722-2300
Representative Garrett Bradley (D Third Plymouth) 617-722-2520

It is critical that you contact both your state Senator and state Representative immediately and ask them to urge the leadership of both legislative chambers to retain the changes made in the Senate and report a clean bill out of the conference committee that does not infringe on your Second Amendment rights.

I just spoke with the offices of Petrucelli, Tarr, Mariano, and Bradley. All were very attentive. The last one I spoke with was Tarr's office, and I told the girl there I speak for the 600-800 members at my club, and she said she would make a special notation of that. I wish I had done that earlier. Now off to call Rep. Frost's office. Sen. Moore requested we don't call his office, as he is the one who made the amendment, and he's solidly on our side. I think a few Dunkin trips might be in store, though. ;-)

Here's their emails, separated by semi-colons:

[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

I also added the phone numbers (in red) above.

CALL CALL CALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. One staffer said the committee has not met as of yet. THIS IS OUR CHANCE!

 

[HuntMaine]

Can't be, it's missing the inflatable sheep.

ROFL!!!

Sent from the blind

 

[GlockJock]

May I reiterate that I, for one, spend part of each day wishing to the heavens above that TODAY will be the day that a Naughton or Linskey or Creem, etc etc has to watch as a knife-wielding intruder breaks into their home tonite, holds them at knifepoint, and repeated assaults and brutally rapes one of their family members, while they're forced to look on helplessly as their daughter/wife /niece etc "pleads for mercy", begging the illegal alien scumbag for her life.

Y'know, like Amy Lord had to?.. Or the random victim in Arlington, brutally assaulted by the RELEASED LEVEL 3 SEX OFFENDER.

Just once? Please

For then, and ONLY THEN, will a dweeb like Petrucell, DeLeo, Naughton, et al even REMOTELY CONSIDER how f*cked up their state is and how incredibly f*cked up additional legislation PUNISHING LAW ABIDING CITIZENS truly is.

Just once, I wanna see "random victim" have a "Massachusetts-famous-and-powerful last name. Just ONE TIME.

PLEASE?.. Just once?

 

[crazymjb]

Honestly even if they get FID suitability if it ever becomes an issue there will be a nice lawsuit against the state which ultimately leave us better off than we would be even if this bill passed without Shall Issue FIDs.

Mike

 

[Scarab440]

Under the proposed Bill what would become of Restrictions? Simply the ability to get judicial review of them?

 

[Dadstoys]

Honestly even if they get FID suitability if it ever becomes an issue there will be a nice lawsuit against the state which ultimately leave us better off than we would be even if this bill passed without Shall Issue FIDs.

Mike

I think it would as well.
But the butt rape party on a lot of innocent people's rights would be epic in the 5 years or so it would probably take .
They know it too.
So it would be a full court press by the same losers who do it with ltc's now, to do as much damage as they could till then.
Keeping in mind that none of the amendments proposed any penalties for arbitrary denials.
So why not go at it like a leg humping dog?

 

[crazymjb]

Upon denying an application or renewal of a license based on a determination of unsuitability, the licensing authority shall notify the applicant in a writing setting forth the specific reasons for such determination as set forth in paragraph (e). Upon revoking or suspending a license based on a determination of unsuitability, the licensing authority shall notify the holder of a license in a writing setting forth the specific reasons for such determination as set forth in paragraph (f). The determination of unsuitability shall be subject to judicial review as set forth in paragraph (f)

Mike

 

[rlee]

Honestly even if they get FID suitability if it ever becomes an issue there will be a nice lawsuit against the state which ultimately leave us better off than we would be even if this bill passed without Shall Issue FIDs.
Mike

This is the reason I'm unsure of whether in the long run the may-issue may help gun owners.

I think it would as well.
But the butt rape party on a lot of innocent people's rights would be epic in the 5 years or so it would probably take .
They know it too.
So it would be a full court press by the same losers who do it with ltc's now, to do as much damage as they could till then.
Keeping in mind that none of the amendments proposed any penalties for arbitrary denials.
So why not go at it like a leg humping dog?

But this is the reason that may-issue suitability right now is a very bad proposition.

 

[Coyote33]

Sorry, but when I see his name, I keep thinking of:

 

[Dadstoys]

Mike

Upon denying an application or renewal of a license based on a determination of unsuitability, the licensing authority shall notify the applicant in a writing setting forth the specific reasons for such determination as set forth in paragraph (e). Upon revoking or suspending a license based on a determination of unsuitability, the licensing authority shall notify the holder of a license in a writing setting forth the specific reasons for such determination as set forth in paragraph (f). The determination of unsuitability shall be subject to judicial review as set forth in paragraph (f)


I've seen that.
I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've seen the system abused for decades.
Ok here's your reason for denial.
"I have had an tip that this person might be involved in illegal activities"
"Sorry I can't comment further because it's an ongoing investigation."
Or how about "Because I said so, that's why"?
Of course your going to win your appeal in court, "Because I said so" is not a legit reason for denial.
Of course this will be a year or two later and your wallet will be a few grand lighter.
But yay you, you won.
Oh and the Chief got a paid court day to sit with his feet up and read the paper.
Guess you showed him.
Add some teeth into it with penalties to the town or Chief and we got something to talk about.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I continue to be surprised that they're so worked up about rearranging the deck chairs on this Titanic we call the state's gun laws.

Senators Propose Compromise On Rifle Permit Discretion For Police Chiefs

“It’s clear that the Chiefs of Police would like more authority in issuing Firearms Identification Cards, but what isn’t clear right now is how that can be done without violating the rights guaranteed to our citizens under the 2nd Amendment,” Timilty said in a statement after the police rally.

Thinking that 'shall issue' FID cards is protecting a fundamental right when the LTC HAS no due process protection is kind of like saying it's okay to send black kids to segregated schools as long as the schools are 'equal'.

 

[crazymjb]

EXACTLY. SCOTUS has agreed to what we all knew, you have a right to guns in common use. Even under this proposed bill, that is not true as the permit to purchase is bullshit. So this is not a huge deal (at least to me), especially as its a toss-up between potential lawsuit vs keeping shotguns and M1 garands an option for those where police chiefs will be able to convince a judge they are a no-go for handguns.

The BIGGEST reason I'd like to see the bill stay in its amended form is because I HATE those like John Rosenthal, and I want to see those scumbags upset and butt-hurt over their failings. I'm quite literally disgusted by those who hire armed security and advocate against FREE people absent 10s of millions of dollars being able to defend themselves.

Mike

 

[The5thDentist]

So I took the drafts from Rekonn, Rickinma and rali, and put this together. I sent this to Campbell and Ives.

Dear Ms. O'Connor Ives:
State House Room 519
7/23/2014

Regarding H4285 An Act Relative to the reduction of gun violence

I urge you to back and recommend to the conference committee that they release as-is H4285. Bill S2284 balanced the interests of public safety and of civil rights. Don't miss this rare opportunity to pass legislation that has the approval of both the Mayors Against Illegal Guns and the Gun Owners Action League.

For the interest of public safety this bill will:

Ensure Universal Background Checks
Ensure that MA background check information goes to NICS
Offer resources for mental health aid and suicide prevention
Improve school safety via school resource officers
Create a new State Police Gun Trafficking Division
Provide stiffer penalties for interstate trafficking of firearms and firearm theft

For law abiding citizens this bill will:


Remove onerous licensing requirements for self defense sprays for anyone over 18
End license issuing delays for LTC/FID holders
Streamline the LTC licensing process


This bill offers a lot for both sides of the debate. I would implore you to help prevent the committee from reintroducing into the bill any language which grants police chiefs discretion on FID cards. According to FBI stats, since 2012, there have been 0 murders by rifle and 1 by shotgun (1) in MA. In the shotgun murder, the accused was not licensed (2). This data supports the assertion that the current process to issue FID cards is not broken and does not require further legislation. I saw that you signed on to the letter from Sen. Michael Barrett. However, what you may not be aware of is that the bill does not take away the ability of any police chiefs to determine suitability for an FID card because they have never had this power. FID suitability is not an effective means to reduce crime. If the FID suitability language is added back into the Bill it opens the state to legal action similar to Moore v. Madigan. The FID card has always served as the State's method of claiming that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is protected. If the chiefs and activists like John Rosenthal get what they want in this bill, the state will lose it's "out". Taxpayer money should not be wasted on losing court cases that could easily be avoided by releasing H4285 unchanged from committee and passing as-is. Please consider striking your name from the Barrett letter, and again, back H 4285 as-is.


Yours in Liberty
The5thDentist
Address
Phone Number
Email


(1) http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...abledatadecpdf
(2) http://www.enterprisenews.com/articl...News/308119919

Damn. I used "it's" instead of "its". Oh well. Just wanted to point that out to anyone who copies this version so that you can correct that one grammar error.

 

[Lank]

I continue to be surprised that they're so worked up about rearranging the deck chairs on this Titanic we call the state's gun laws.

Senators Propose Compromise On Rifle Permit Discretion For Police Chiefs

Thinking that 'shall issue' FID cards is protecting a fundamental right when the LTC HAS no due process protection is kind of like saying it's okay to send black kids to segregated schools as long as the schools are 'equal'.

AH HA! You just outed yourself as being a Mike Church listener. WELL DONE

 

[Lank]

So I took the drafts from Rekonn, Rickinma and rali, and put this together. I sent this to Campbell and Ives.

Very well done.

 

[Win]

EXACTLY. SCOTUS has agreed to what we all knew, you have a right to guns in common use. Even under this proposed bill, that is not true as the permit to purchase is bullshit. So this is not a huge deal (at least to me), especially as its a toss-up between potential lawsuit vs keeping shotguns and M1 garands an option for those where police chiefs will be able to convince a judge they are a no-go for handguns.

The BIGGEST reason I'd like to see the bill stay in its amended form is because I HATE those like John Rosenthal, and I want to see those scumbags upset and butt-hurt over their failings. I'm quite literally disgusted by those who hire armed security and advocate against FREE people absent 10s of millions of dollars being able to defend themselves.

Mike

Agree

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

AH HA! You just outed yourself as being a Mike Church listener. WELL DONE

WTF is Mike Church? I only listen to WBUR. Seriously.

 

[The5thDentist]

WTF is Mike Church? I only listen to WBUR. Seriously.

The morning guy on Sirius XM Patriot. Excellent on the early history of our fair republic. Wastes too much time with stupid parody songs.


Edit: Now I think of a line that I could have added to the letter:

Expansion of suitability does nothing to protect the public. It is an unneeded expansion of police-state powers in this state.

 

[crazymjb]

WBUR is the tits.

Mike

 

[Lank]

Ok, lots of confusion here.

So WBUR is now quoting Mike Church?

Maybe we are making some fu king progress.

 

[Come and take]

So I took the drafts from Rekonn, Rickinma and rali, and put this together. I sent this to Campbell and Ives.

Looking good!

 

[hv55maxx]

Senators and Representatives,

I urge you, and on behalf of the 350 members of Georgetown Fish and Game, to keep the language of the Senate version of this bill regarding suitability and police discretion in the issuance of FID cards. There is no "problem" to be solved by adding discretion of suitability to FID cards. You can find this yourselves on the FBI crime statistics website that in The Commonwealth there has been one act of gun violence since 2012 with a shotgun, of which the suspect was not licensed, and zero crimes with a rifle. A vote for the suitability will clearly show where your intentions lie as it will only be a step towards lowering lawful gun ownership in Massachusetts. As you have heard throughout this process, there are many constituents watching your actions and it will not go unnoticed at your next election. Please keep that in mind.

 

[Coyote33]

Senators and Representatives,

I urge you, and on behalf of the 350 members of Georgetown Fish and Game, to keep the language of the Senate version of this bill regarding suitability and police discretion in the issuance of FID cards. There is no "problem" to be solved by adding discretion of suitability to FID cards. You can find this yourselves on the FBI crime statistics website that in The Commonwealth there has been one act of gun violence since 2012 with a shotgun, of which the suspect was not licensed, and zero crimes with a rifle. A vote for the suitability will clearly show where your intentions lie as it will only be a step towards lowering lawful gun ownership in Massachusetts. As you have heard throughout this process, there are many constituents watching your actions and it will not go unnoticed at your next election. Please keep that in mind.

I think they, like most people, would bristle at being told what their intentions are, even you're right. Gotta be careful on the wording.

 

[hv55maxx]

I think they, like most people, would bristle at being told what their intentions are, even you're right. Gotta be careful on the wording.

well if youre not sick of this sh!t by now then theres something wrong, we have the best we are going to get with whats on the table in the senate bill, the legistraitors just cant leave it alone without trying to f4ck with gun rights

 

[whacko]

From the WBUR article:

"“It’s clear that the Chiefs of Police would like more authority in issuing Firearms Identification Cards, but what isn’t clear right now is how that can be done without violating the rights guaranteed to our citizens under the 2nd Amendment,” Timilty said in a statement after the police rally."

What wha? Who gives a flying **** what a police chief wants? Really? When the hell are people going to wake up and realize giving more and more power to police does NOT provide for a safer community? My god these people are idiots.

 

[Whutmeworry]

“We are trying to find middle ground. We’re not wed to it, but we think it’s a good starting point,” said Sen. Michael Barrett, a Lexington Democrat. “We aren’t opposed on the Senate side to giving chiefs this flexibility but we want to see the legitimate rights of gun owners respected.”

I love this. If the chief has probable cause to arrest someone, why would he even be worried about whether or not such a person is "suitable"? Arrest the scumbags if you have probable cause, otherwise, STEP-OFF B*TCH!!!

 

[PaulD]

Part of this bill allows current and retired LEO to own items that are otherwise unallowed under the AWB.

Are there stats on misuse of firearms by current or, especially, retired LEO? From a mental health perspective, they seem more likely to be subject to restraining orders and so on.

 

[rwl1955]

AH HA! You just outed yourself as being a Mike Church listener. WELL DONE

*******
I listen to Mike in the morning occasionally.

- - - Updated - - -

If we have to give up suitability then the COP's lose their exemption to the AWB ban. **** em.

 

[oldsoldier29]

Part of this bill allows current and retired LEO to own items that are otherwise unallowed under the AWB.

Are there stats on misuse of firearms by current or, especially, retired LEO? From a mental health perspective, they seem more likely to be subject to restraining orders and so on.

Well, as a vocation, statistically, police officers have higher incidents of dv than your average citizen. http://womenandpolicing.com/violencefs.asp
Nothing against them, as I work with them daily, but, as with everything else, facts are facts.

 

[PaulD]

Well, as a vocation, statistically, police officers have higher incidents of dv than your average citizen. http://womenandpolicing.com/violencefs.asp
Nothing against them, as I work with them daily, but, as with everything else, facts are facts.

Thanks. That confirms what I thought.

So it makes sense to allow them to own the extra killy guns that the rest of us can't?