HK VP9

[6Gears1Speed]

Like I said Mike, we all have our methods that are based on our needs. You're telling me I'm all wrong yet people who I consult with on reloading forums tell me I'm doing the right thing. I don't shoot competitively and never will. My methods work for me and in this case I just have a new gun that requires a heavier load than any other gun I've owned. Don't forget that there are a LOT of details I'm not getting into here. I'm not flying completely blind. I do a lot of thinking and calculating and my loads usually do what they are supposed to do short of being able to tell you the velocity since I have no chrono yet. Yes I do need one. As far as whether my "light" loads are weak or not, if you've ever tried the fairly new Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder you'd know that starting grains can be pretty powerful depending on the powder. That stuff screams. I have done some heavier loads for my GP100 but I won't get into all that.

I say enough of reloading talk in a VP9 thread...

Edit: Actually, I lied this entire time! I just looked at my notes and label for the ammo that failed in the VP9 and it's close to the never exceed number. When I occasionally do go high I always stay below that number to account for any variations. I was using IMR 4756 5.0 grains with Berry's 115 grain plated RN bullets. Never exceed is 5.2. I forget why right now but for some reason I was experimenting with a higher load in my Sig P938 so I brewed up this batch and had a bunch left over.

 

[drgrant]

Like I said Mike, we all have our methods that are based on our needs. You're telling me I'm all wrong yet people who I consult with on reloading forums tell me I'm doing the right thing.

Not saying "you're" wrong, it's just that your view is backwards way of looking at the problem. It's not the gun that's the problem, it's (possible) that your ammo doesn't even meet basic 9mm luger specs for velocity (and thus energy) and that's why you're getting issues. I am well aware there are lots of old guys with suspenders telling people to use the load that barely makes the gun work, etc, telling us all we'll shoot our eyes out, and telling Clark Magnuson he's "gonna kill himself" for wanting to make a 9mm load that gets 1500 fps.

The problem with not having a chrono is it is kinda blind. The results they get from those friggan test barrels they use might as well be like finding a unicorn. I don't ever think I've ever replicated a listed load to within a reasonable margin of error of the velocity printed in a load book. It's always usually lower or higher. Often the load books are way too optimistic. I've also had ones like Speer's that seems to be very pessimistic, but then again for a lot of their loads I think they use actual handguns and not just test barrels.

Also the fun thing about not having a chrono is your brain will mislead you. For example I can work up a Titegroup .45 acp 230 ball load that will make you -THINK- you're firing a hot round, but you would laugh your ass off when you see that its like only breaking low 800s. It's just that shit burns so fast it gets kinda "snappy" in .45 ACP and meanwhile I can load up a moderate load with Unique that actually will drive the bullet much faster, although the perceived recoil will be less because of the "lumpy" nature of the recoil vs the snap of the faster burning powder.

I haven't tried CFE yet but it looks decent, although the Hodgdon data center is way too conservative to tell what it can really do.

I don't shoot competitively and never will.

That's unfortunate. I thought the same way when I started out, but I'm glad I got some exposure to it. If it wasn't for things like USPSA, bowling pins, and steel plate matches and so on my progress in skills would have been a lot worse, to the point where I probably would have sold all my guns because I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I'm not an expert pistol shooter by any stretch but competing at least got me to the point where I don't hate myself when I leave the range.

Different strokes and all that I guess....

-Mike

 

[6Gears1Speed]

This. It's like pulling teeth without novocaine to get my department to adopt new efficient ideas in firearms.

If I remember correctly they all laughed at those newfangled "plastic" guns way back when. Some things just take time.

 

[Supermoto]

4756 is much to slow for 9mm. the good thing is you can't put enough in the case to cause pressure issues.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

This. It's like pulling teeth without novocaine to get my department to adopt new efficient ideas in firearms.

Eh what do you know?

 

[dgrafton]

No second strike capability. Most striker fired guns are SA only. I think i recently read about striker gun that was DA though.. could be remembering that wrong though.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk Pro - typos are from the GD auto correct unless they are funny substitutions those I'll take credit for.

Thanks Beaker. I think the P99 (and SW99) are the only striker fired with that capability. Not sure about the PPQ.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

4756 is much to slow for 9mm. the good thing is you can't put enough in the case to cause pressure issues.

Unfortunately guys like me who haven't been loading for years don't have a stockpile of all the best stuff in their garage so I have to use what I can find. When I hear people talking about Win 231 they may as well be talking about pixy dust.

 

[dcmdon]

4756 is much to slow for 9mm. the good thing is you can't put enough in the case to cause pressure issues.

One of the joys of reloading is that you can make ammo that is intentionally OUT of SAAMI spec. Most of my 9mm loads are below spec and ALL of my .45 ACP loads are below SAAMI spec.

If a gun runs on factory ammo and has trouble with my reloads, the problem is in my reloads. Not in the gun. I don't consider WWB to be satisfactory for judging a firearm.

As crazy as it seems, CCI Blazer, aluminum case and all, is my gold standard for practice ammo. In 30,000+ rounds through my Glock 34s it never once failed to go boom, eject and chamber properly. Running blazer, my G34s were quite literally 100% reliable.

Once I come up with a load that works, my QCd ammo is equally reliable. But until I come up with something that works, I take nothing for granted.

Supermoto - I usually agree with what you post. But based on this, 4756 is faster than AA5. Is there something I'm missing? I've had excellent results with AA5 when loading medium to hot 9mm loads. So I'm thinking that it would work fine if he came up with a pretty solid load. Although I know nothing bout how much space the it would take up. Fairly hot 9mm AA5 loads are under 6 gr., so there is plenty of room for powder, the case is less than half full.

I have no first hand knowledge of 4756, I'm basing this on this chart.

http://www.wwpowder.com/burn-rate.html

Do you have first hand experience with 4756?

Don

 

[dcmdon]

Unfortunately guys like me who haven't been loading for years don't have a stockpile of all the best stuff in their garage so I have to use what I can find. When I hear people talking about Win 231 they may as well be talking about pixy dust.

Promo - which is the same as red dot, is readily available and dirt cheap for about $100 per 8 lb jug. Its a fairly fast powder, perfect for light loads that will burn clean and still cycle a gun. A friend who is into class 3 stuff also tells me it runs great in his MG and is very quiet out of silencers.

Don

 

[6Gears1Speed]

I also have some 700X and Bullseye.
Last night I ran the 700X at 3.5 grains with Xtreme 115 grain plated RN bullet and it failed in the VP9. Would cycle but ejection was very poor.
I also ran one mag of the 4756 at 5.0 grains that failed miserably my first time out and had no failures. I credit this to break in and some elbow grease on the frame rails and slide rail channels. Out of the box the finish is a bit gritty inside the slide's rail channels. It's nice and smooth now.
I'll try the Bullseye next if I can. There is no recipe so I'll have to look into it.

 

[MAD Geary]

Unfortunately guys like me who haven't been loading for years don't have a stockpile of all the best stuff in their garage so I have to use what I can find. When I hear people talking about Win 231 they may as well be talking about pixy dust.

D&L in Warwick had tons of 231 last week. As well as a bunch of other powder.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

Thanks maybe I'll go tomorrow. That's where I got the Bullseye a few months ago.
And while I'm there I can drool over the guns our masters won't let us own in MA.

 

[MAD Geary]

Id call just to make sure. I know it's nice looking at all the stuff we can't own.

 

[Supermoto]

Supermoto - I usually agree with what you post. But based on this, 4756 is faster than AA5. Is there something I'm missing? I've had excellent results with AA5 when loading medium to hot 9mm loads. So I'm thinking that it would work fine if he came up with a pretty solid load. Although I know nothing bout how much space the it would take up. Fairly hot 9mm AA5 loads are under 6 gr., so there is plenty of room for powder, the case is less than half full.

I have no first hand knowledge of 4756, I'm basing this on this chart.

http://www.wwpowder.com/burn-rate.html

Do you have first hand experience with 4756?

Don

Powder density
4756 is a low density flake powder that fills up the case. The max load listed on Hodgson just makes minor and you will run out of volume fast. I think it is compressed in the 6s
AA5 is a high density powder that allows for a greater charge volume

 

[dcmdon]

Powder density
4756 is a low density flake powder that fills up the case. The max load listed on Hodgson just makes minor and you will run out of volume fast. I think it is compressed in the 6s
AA5 is a high density powder that allows for a greater charge volume

Ok. So its the speed combined with its low density. That makes perfect sense.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

So do you mad scientists have anything for 115 grain plated RN using Bullseye? My Lee book has no recipe and the Alliant website only shows 4.7 for Speer 115 GDHP and 4.4 for 124 GDHP. Lee shows 4.1 to 4.7 for 115 XTP.

 

[dcmdon]

What do your sources show for 115 gr RN lead?

Go with that. You generally use less powder for lead. Also remember that COALs for HPs are shorter. If you load a RN/FMJ to the same COAL as a HP, more of the bullet will be in the case, resulting in higher chamber pressures.

Don

p.s. If you shoot a lot of plated bullets, you should pick up the Lyman book. Since Lyman sells molds, they have a lot of loads for lead bullets, which translate well into plated bullets. I'm upstairs and feeling lazy, otherwise, I'd look for you.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

In the past I've used lead data as I've mostly used Berry's and they say to use lead. There is no data for lead in the Lee book or Alliant website. I bought the Lee book because I have Lee equipment and they cross reference grains to their "Auto Disk" hole sizes. But usually I have to go at least one hole higher so it's sort of useless.

 

[dcmdon]

psst. When you buy a lee auto disk, they give you a chart that converts grains to hole sizes for most powders.

;-)

Live and learn. Ha. I shoot Precision Bullets plastic coated bullets and the lead data in the Lyman book works great.

I'll PM you my email address. If you don't get any good answers, shoot me an email and I'll look it up in the Lyman book.

Don

 

[M1911]

So do you mad scientists have anything for 115 grain plated RN using Bullseye? My Lee book has no recipe and the Alliant website only shows 4.7 for Speer 115 GDHP and 4.4 for 124 GDHP. Lee shows 4.1 to 4.7 for 115 XTP.

Did you try the powder manufacturer's website?

 

[6Gears1Speed]

Did you try the powder manufacturer's website?

Yes. You quoted me saying so.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

psst. When you buy a lee auto disk, they give you a chart that converts grains to hole sizes for most powders.

;-)

Live and learn. Ha.

Ha. Lets just say that my road to reloading was long and complicated. Believe it or not when I started I was using a funnel and a dipper. I had no Autodisk and when I got one by that time I already had the Lee book and never bothered looking at the chart that came with the Autodisk. I'll contact you per your PM. Thanks.

 

[6Gears1Speed]

I tried 20 rounds with Bulleseye at 4.5 grains last night. VP9 cycled well and ejected well. Can't comment on accuracy of the rounds as I'm still not used to the gun. Big muzzle flash as compared to two factory 9's I tried side by side one of which was +P. Would rather not get blinded while I shoot. Today I bought some W231 and Tightgroup. If Tightgroup's motto of "A little goes a long way" is any indication then maybe I'll have good luck with it in the VP9. Have never used either powders.

 

[jron]

I assume if I rack a round it's 100% guaranteed to not go boom unless the trigger safety is engaged right?
Really need to find a good striker fire operational guide.

There is a round in the Camber in my Glock 24/7 HK should be no different.

 

[Varmint]

Rumor is Maryland has listed a VP40 and VP45 on their handgun roster, which means both guns have been submitted for testing to the state of maryland.

VP45 would be sweet, since it would probably be 10 round and not gimped for Mass.

Link to MD roster:
https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/S...e/HandgunRoster/HandgunModels.aspx?manu=18059

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I tried 20 rounds with Bulleseye at 4.5 grains last night. VP9 cycled well and ejected well. Can't comment on accuracy of the rounds as I'm still not used to the gun. Big muzzle flash as compared to two factory 9's I tried side by side one of which was +P. Would rather not get blinded while I shoot. Today I bought some W231 and Tightgroup. If Tightgroup's motto of "A little goes a long way" is any indication then maybe I'll have good luck with it in the VP9. Have never used either powders.

There will be no issues at all with Bullseye, W231, or, Titegroup in any 9mm pistol

 

[6Gears1Speed]

There will be no issues at all with Bullseye, W231, or, Titegroup in any 9mm pistol

Yup. Tried Tightgroup at 4.1 grains and was the best yet in the VP9. W231 is next.

Also, this gun is a completely different animal than I'm used to. I've never had a gun that behaved so differently from out of the box to 300 or so rounds. Out of the box it would not function at all with 4756 at 5.0 grains. Now it eats it up and spits it out just fine.
Along with general break in, every time I clean it after a range visit I run my polishing pads along the rails a few times. It runs better every time out. Every other gun I've owned I didn't notice a difference from out of the box to 500 rounds. This shows a HUGE difference.

 

[92G]

usually spring breaking in, etc.
some gen 4 glocks do the same, at least in my hands.

 

[dcmdon]

usually spring breaking in, etc.
some gen 4 glocks do the same, at least in my hands.

I found this to be definitely true of small 9mms. My Kahr was night and day after 100 rounds of my heavy 147gr bowling pin loads.
After that, it would run fine on my light target/steel reloads. Before that it wouldnnot.

Its interesting. Many guns get much more reliable after a couple of hundred rounds. I only know of 2 companies, Kahr and Les Baer, who specifically recommend you shoot the guns 200 and 500 rounds respectively before you log any complaints.

Its marketing suicide, but oh well. It happens to be correct.

 

[drgrant]

Yup. Tried Tightgroup at 4.1 grains and was the best yet in the VP9. W231 is next.

IMHO you will be disappointed with W231 in 9mm. It's too weak, at least at obeying the book values. I couldn't even make a load that would replicate factory ammo even at max charge for it in any of the books I had. Others may have different results.. but I found TG to be far better for 9mm. That said, I bet W231 at max still runs the pistol good enough... so you may be OK from a functional standpoint.

-Mike