• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Health condition reason for Class A unrestricted?

Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
3,050
Likes
2,171
Location
White Mountains, NH
Feedback: 12 / 0 / 0
First time poster here. I used the search function and found nothing about my question.

I'm about to apply for my Class A in Waltham. I know it is a red city and I have 2 reasons why I am applying for one but I have a third I wanted to throw out there.

I have a heart condition that keeps me from exerting activity even jogging (strict orders from my doctors). My concern is, if by chance I am confronted by a life threatening situation, I cannot run away to avoid it. I would have to stand my ground and with am assailant with a knife or gun, I can't really do that empty handed. Even brawling is a risk with my condition.

Is that a good enough reason to use? And if yes, would that be something that should be a main point?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
What are the other two reasons?

ETA You don't 'know' it's a red town. You've only been lead to believe that.
 
my first reason is that my dad recently passed away 6 months ago and left behind a lot of valuables (his tools, firearms, collectible car, etc) and I am probably gonna be moving in with my mom to help her out if need be...the problem is that a certain family member has certain shady acquaintances that know about my mom being by herself and my dad's valuables and with possibly living with her and/or just being over there all the time, I do not want to take any chances at all.

my second reason is the potential liabilities and legalties that can arise with a Class A restricted.

my third reason would be my heart condition.
 
When and if I end up in MA, I was going to use I'm disabled with one leg. I can't run walk away fast or even fight back, balance issue.

Andy
 
I am just wondering with an admission of a health condition as a reason to LTC ALP, will they take that reason serious and will they request a doctor's note? I can easily get a note from my cardiologist, just not too sure if that is something they will consider for approving an ALP.
 
Any town that has a policy to restrict first time applicants until renewal is red in my book.

While I agree that some towns are more difficult than others I find the labeling system to be more of a detriment than a help. Let's stop encouraging many potential applicants to just lay down and take the restricted license without any 'fight' based on the comments and ratings they get here. It may be hard to acquire an unrestricted license but it can be done. The worst part of this whole thing is that anybody here who posts 'forget it that town is Red' is hurting not helping. Over the past couple of years I've had several friends who got ALP. In towns that you would classify as Red. One of them was literally laughed at by some of the uniformed officers at the station but she came away with an unrestricted license.
 
I'm definitely not gonna apply for a restricted. Hence why I was asking if using the fact that I have a heart condition is a reason for an ALP is a legit reason to have.

Anyone other opinions on that?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
It doesn't matter what you request (or what one person on here wants to tell you. Waltham is a red town and every police officer who works here, and I've spoken with many, will tell you that). They change it to restricted on your application as the enter it into the system.
The rationale behind wanting to be able to protect your mom and/or the valuables is a moot point, because even with a restricted, you'll be able to have your gun at home, so they won't give a rats ass about that.
 
The worst part of this whole thing is that anybody here who posts 'forget it that town is Red' is hurting not helping.
True, but the labeling system is still valuable. The level of preparation necessary for application to a "red" town that results in an unrestricted A can be quite different than that required in a green town.

Once again, it's really a matter of the PD's goals, which may include items such as :

- Make sure only people who are qualified to safely carry do so
- Keep the number of unrestricted LTC-As down to a small percent of the total
- Issue an unrestricted license only to someone who is connected
- Don't issue any unrestricted licenses except when compelled to do so by legal process
 
my first reason is that my dad recently passed away 6 months ago and left behind a lot of valuables (his tools, firearms, collectible car, etc) and I am probably gonna be moving in with my mom to help her out if need be...the problem is that a certain family member has certain shady acquaintances that know about my mom being by herself and my dad's valuables and with possibly living with her and/or just being over there all the time, I do not want to take any chances at all.

my second reason is the potential liabilities and legalties that can arise with a Class A restricted.
I suspect that Waltham PD won't care about 1 or 2. They know all about the legal issues wrt to Class A unrestricted, and they just don't care.
 
It doesn't matter what you request (or what one person on here wants to tell you. Waltham is a red town and every police officer who works here, and I've spoken with many, will tell you that). They change it to restricted on your application as the enter it into the system.
The rationale behind wanting to be able to protect your mom and/or the valuables is a moot point, because even with a restricted, you'll be able to have your gun at home, so they won't give a rats ass about that.

If you're saying that they don't issue any ALP for first time applicants you are wrong!
 
True, but the labeling system is still valuable. The level of preparation necessary for application to a "red" town that results in an unrestricted A can be quite different than that required in a green town.

I totally agree with you on this point. 'red' should be a rallying cry to be extra prepared.
 
While I agree that some towns are more difficult than others I find the labeling system to be more of a detriment than a help. Let's stop encouraging many potential applicants to just lay down and take the restricted license without any 'fight' based on the comments and ratings they get here. It may be hard to acquire an unrestricted license but it can be done. The worst part of this whole thing is that anybody here who posts 'forget it that town is Red' is hurting not helping. Over the past couple of years I've had several friends who got ALP. In towns that you would classify as Red. One of them was literally laughed at by some of the uniformed officers at the station but she came away with an unrestricted license.

It's not a deterrent, it's a warning- eg, "Danger Will Robinson, these people will bone you if you let them, so proceed with extreme caution".

Obviously every red/yellow town is different, and such an indicator means that the applicant has to do some investigation on their own (what a novel concept) to see which way the wind is blowing, or if there are wallhacks that can be exploited to get the desired license. ) Just because 10 out of every 100 people walks into (insert red town here) PD and somehow or another, isn't restricted, doesn't mean that most applicants aren't going to get hassled, downgraded, or otherwise abused by the system. Any town which restricts, denies, applies non statutory requirements, or discourages applicants is by default, worse than the other 50%+ which don't do any of that garbage.

These localities should be viewed with distrust. Anything less is a fools errand. It's been proven time and time again here that dealing with many red and yellow towns are often like playing with venomous snakes. Sometimes if you do the right thing or don't look like a food/threat nothing will happen. Another applicant might come up, get lied to, and get bitten in the process. There's also another fun issue, such as "LTC Aids" which is a whole other ball of wax. (Classic example is someone who takes temporary residency in a red town, gets the "taint" of a restricted LTC, and now can't get rid of it until it expires because the IA won't kill off the old license- if you are lucky
you can light up a lawyer blowtorch to fix this, if not, then you are boned until it
expires. )

People MUST use caution when dealing with red/yellow towns. I can't say this enough. I've lost track of the number of people on here who have gotten screwed by them. Many went in way too optimistic/naive and got hosed.

Further, what is this "fighting" that you speak of? Most of the time there is nothing to fight about- you either have the "keys" or you don't when applying, unless we're talking about an outright denial, where legal blowtorches can certainly be brought to bear, assuming the applicant can afford it (or, as is the case might be now, someone else might be able to underwrite your case if you fit the mold of a perfect plaintiff to make a run for the 2nd amendment case for MA. )

Some people "get lucky" but that's hardly reliable. In these cases, often knowing the "why" is often impossible, all you can do is make educated guesses. Any issuing authority that engages in gender/race/ability discrimination, for example, is not going to write that stuff on paper. (And if you don't believe it happens all the time in MA, I have a nice bridge to sell you.... ). Many towns have what I call "invisible boxes".... eg, there are need statements, etc, which might "fly" but the IA will not tell you this up front. The only way to find these out is with street intel from other applicants or from gun lawyers.

-Mike
 
It's not a deterrent, it's a warning- eg, "Danger Will Robinson, these people will bone you if you let them, so proceed with extreme caution".

Obviously every red/yellow town is different, and such an indicator means that the applicant has to do some investigation on their own (what a novel concept) to see which way the wind is blowing, or if there are wallhacks that can be exploited to get the desired license. ) Just because 10 out of every 100 people walks into (insert red town here) PD and somehow or another, isn't restricted, doesn't mean that most applicants aren't going to get hassled, downgraded, or otherwise abused by the system. Any town which restricts, denies, applies non statutory requirements, or discourages applicants is by default, worse than the other 50%+ which don't do any of that garbage.

These localities should be viewed with distrust. Anything less is a fools errand. It's been proven time and time again here that dealing with many red and yellow towns are often like playing with venomous snakes. Sometimes if you do the right thing or don't look like a food/threat nothing will happen. Another applicant might come up, get lied to, and get bitten in the process. There's also another fun issue, such as "LTC Aids" which is a whole other ball of wax. (Classic example is someone who takes temporary residency in a red town, gets the "taint" of a restricted LTC, and now can't get rid of it until it expires because the IA won't kill off the old license- if you are lucky
you can light up a lawyer blowtorch to fix this, if not, then you are boned until it
expires. )

People MUST use caution when dealing with red/yellow towns. I can't say this enough. I've lost track of the number of people on here who have gotten screwed by them. Many went in way too optimistic/naive and got hosed.

Further, what is this "fighting" that you speak of? Most of the time there is nothing to fight about- you either have the "keys" or you don't when applying, unless we're talking about an outright denial, where legal blowtorches can certainly be brought to bear, assuming the applicant can afford it (or, as is the case might be now, someone else might be able to underwrite your case if you fit the mold of a perfect plaintiff to make a run for the 2nd amendment case for MA. )

Some people "get lucky" but that's hardly reliable. In these cases, often knowing the "why" is often impossible, all you can do is make educated guesses. Any issuing authority that engages in gender/race/ability discrimination, for example, is not going to write that stuff on paper. (And if you don't believe it happens all the time in MA, I have a nice bridge to sell you.... ). Many towns have what I call "invisible boxes".... eg, there are need statements, etc, which might "fly" but the IA will not tell you this up front. The only way to find these out is with street intel from other applicants or from gun lawyers.

-Mike

Well said. Particularly the line about treating the towns with distrust! The fight I refer to is obviously not literal. What I'm referring to is the strategy and planning and politics that go into coming out the other side with an unrestricted license. The sad truth about some of these towns that are labeled red is that it's who you are or who you know kind of situation. I'm sure there are applicants with certain addresses and certain career paths that get ALP without a thought. So if I don't live in those parts of town or if I don't have the chosen career I have to find another way to do it.
When the LO says something like 'we don't give ALP to first time applicants', I liken that to a car salesman saying 'we don't discount BMWs'. Granted the tactics and leverage are different in the above situations but ultimately they are both bullshit statements.
 
It doesn't matter what you request (or what one person on here wants to tell you. Waltham is a red town and every police officer who works here, and I've spoken with many, will tell you that). They change it to restricted on your application as the enter it into the system.
The rationale behind wanting to be able to protect your mom and/or the valuables is a moot point, because even with a restricted, you'll be able to have your gun at home, so they won't give a rats ass about that.

I suspect that Waltham PD won't care about 1 or 2. They know all about the legal issues wrt to Class A unrestricted, and they just don't care.

My original thread question has been hijacked and only one person has given an answer about that question.

My question was this: I have a heart condition that keeps me from exerting activity even jogging (strict orders from my doctors). My concern is, if by chance I am confronted by a life threatening situation, I cannot run away to avoid it. I would have to stand my ground and with am assailant with a knife or gun, I can't really do that empty handed. Even brawling is a risk with my condition.

Is this something the Police Chief has to take into consideration when issuing me what he decides to issue me?

Would there be legal ramifications in a situation as follows: even though I fear for my life and want it for personal protection because of my disability, I am issued a restricted instead of an unrestricted and there after, (hopefully never) I am put in a situation where my life was threatened and I cannot run away due to my heart and because of a non CCW license, I have no ability to defend my life and my life is now in the hands of a criminal.
 
My original thread question has been hijacked and only one person has given an answer about that question.
Just the usual thread drift. It happens all the time.

Is this something the Police Chief has to take into consideration when issuing me what he decides to issue me?
The CLEO doesn't have to take anything into consideration if he doesn't want to. He has near total discretion in the issuing of licenses.

Will he take your health condition into consideration? Only he knows. I've known five people in Waltham with unrestricted licenses. Based on their experiences, I'd guess that your reasoning would not sway the licensing officer. There are lots of older folks in Waltham with LTCs would who can't fight back or flee, and they got restricted licenses, too.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't try it, I'm just saying that I doubt it would sway the officer.

One of the things that I think you need to address in your letter is that you know when you can't use deadly force (and have training to substantiate that) and that you have the skills to use your handgun effectively (and have training to substantiate that as well).

Would there be legal ramifications in a situation as follows: even though I fear for my life and want it for personal protection because of my disability, I am issued a restricted instead of an unrestricted and there after, (hopefully never) I am put in a situation where my life was threatened and I cannot run away due to my heart and because of a non CCW license, I have no ability to defend my life and my life is now in the hands of a criminal.
Legal ramifications for whom? Are you asking if your estate could sue the Waltham PD because they issued you a restricted license and you died because you couldn't defend yourself? Sure, your estate could sue, but I doubt the lawsuit would get very far. The law provides the Chief almost unfettered discretion, and he acted lawfully in issuing a restricted license.

I suggest that you consider retaining a MA firearms attorney. They might know the licensing officer, and, at the very least, can provide an objective look at your cover letter and prepare you for the licensing officer's questions.

What are some of the reasons that have worked in the past in Waltham?

I know a couple who used to live in Waltham. They own a jewelry store in Boston. Jewelers are often targets for robbery (both at home and at work). They transport jewels. They make large cash deposits.

I know another couple who live in Waltham. They are firearms instructors who do a lot of teaching. They have taken hundreds of hours of instruction at places like LFI. They transport large numbers of firearms to their classes.

I know another fellow who used to live in Waltham. He was a firearm safety instructor, hunter safety instructor, and Lt. Colonel in the National Guard. He transports large numbers of firearms to his classes.

It still took all of these folks some doing to convince the Waltham PD to issue them unrestricted licenses.

Mainly, I want to know if it is even worth my time to explain my disability on the application and in the letter to the chief.
You will only know whether that reason worked after the fact. And since it doesn't take much time to write the letter, why would you not do so? Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. If you don't try everything, then you know you will get a restricted license.
 
Sorry for being touchy. Just a sensitive subject for me (in regards to my health and being able to protect myself).

I have already written my letter to the chief and I am already figuring I will get a restricted (even though I am applying for ALP).

I have been around firearms (mostly longarms) my whole life (my whole family are hunters) and that is mentioned in the letter, along with my knowledge of handling and safe keeping and it's importance to me.

Just haven't added the health issue yet, which I have decided to add, thanks to you guys. Just have to outline how I want to spell it out in the letter.
 
Sorry for being touchy. Just a sensitive subject for me (in regards to my health and being able to protect myself).

I have already written my letter to the chief and I am already figuring I will get a restricted (even though I am applying for ALP).

I have been around firearms (mostly longarms) my whole life (my whole family are hunters) and that is mentioned in the letter, along with my knowledge of handling and safe keeping and it's importance to me.

Just haven't added the health issue yet, which I have decided to add, thanks to you guys. Just have to outline how I want to spell it out in the letter.

Sorry that I was part of the movement that took your thread off course. To be honest I don't think you've got enough to make a compelling argument(you shouldn't really need one but we are talking reality here). I think you need to rethink your reasons. I also want to emphasize it's who you know as much as what your needs are.
What kind of work do you do? What type of neighborhood do you live in? In an earlier post I had asked if your Mom lives in Waltham. If she lives in a green town and you were planning on practically moving in with her anyway then maybe you should just go for it and make that move.
 
Honestly, my neighborhood is decent.

I am an engineering printer tech. So I transport parts back and forth to job sites, as well as my tools and computer equipment I need to fix the printers.

I dont have any "ins" so to speak.

My mom lives in Waltham as well.

Believe me, I totally understand I have a 99.9% chance getting restricted. I was just curious if a health condition could play a role in getting unrestricted in a town like Waltham. Obviously not.

I am not even sure if my profession would deem it necessary.
 
If you happen to be on call late at night in unsavory neighborhoods that wouldn't hurt :)

Honestly, my neighborhood is decent.

I am an engineering printer tech. So I transport parts back and forth to job sites, as well as my tools and computer equipment I need to fix the printers.

I dont have any "ins" so to speak.

My mom lives in Waltham as well.

Believe me, I totally understand I have a 99.9% chance getting restricted. I was just curious if a health condition could play a role in getting unrestricted in a town like Waltham. Obviously not.

I am not even sure if my profession would deem it necessary.
 
I have been around firearms (mostly longarms) my whole life (my whole family are hunters) and that is mentioned in the letter, along with my knowledge of handling and safe keeping and it's importance to me.
I don't mean to be a jerk, but just being around guns for a long time doesn't necessarily mean someone has safe practices. As an instructor, some of the most unsafe students that I've had are folks who had been around guns for a decades, but either never had formal training or their training was not focused on safety. I particularly remember a time at the range when a buddy of mine, who had served as an infantryman in Vietnam and been around guns his entire life, swept me with the muzzle of his Colt SAA. Twice.

I'm not saying that you are unsafe (or safe). I've never met you. I'm just saying that being around guns a long time doesn't mean someone knows and properly applies the safety rules.

What do you think would impress a licensing officer more: Applicant A who says he's been around guns all his life, versus Applicant B who has taken 80 hours of firearms training, including judicious use of deadly force, concealed carry, has the course certificates to prove it and is also an NRA certified instructor?

What the licensing officer wants to know is:

1) Are you in some way more likely to be attacked than the average applicant? Do you make large cash deposits? Does your work require you to go to particularly bad neighborhoods?

2) Do you have training in defensive shooting?

3) Do you have training that demonstrates that you know when you can (and when you can't) use deadly force?

4) Do you have connections to someone important so that if he gives you a restricted license he'll then get political grief.

The fact that you have been around guns for many years doesn't necessarily imply that you have been trained in defensive shooting, nor does it imply that you know the laws of deadly force.

Don't misunderstand me, I strongly believe that concealed carry permits should be shall issue (VT style is even better). I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the licensing officer. If he gives you an unrestricted license, and you get involved in a shooting that goes bad, the officer wants to have political cover. Why did he give you an unrestricted license? The licensing officer wants to cover his behind. You have to give him enough "ammunition" to cover his behind.

Believe me, I totally understand I have a 99.9% chance getting restricted. I was just curious if a health condition could play a role in getting unrestricted in a town like Waltham. Obviously not.
I don't think that is obvious. While I think it is unlikely, I'm not the licensing officer in Waltham, and only his opinion counts. I'm just an anonymous keyboard commando who has never even met the licensing officer in Waltham. Which is why I suggested that you contact a firearms attorney who may have already been down this road with the very same licensing officer. My opinion is worth just what you paid for it.

If you are going to try the work angle -- carry expensive equipment in bad neighborhoods late at night -- be prepared to substantiate that with a letter from your boss on company letterhead.
 
Last edited:
I like all the points you've made. I never really thought about it from the standpoint of the licensing officer.

I am planning on taking two courses on personal protection for inside and outside the house but I don't have either courses under my belt at this point.

Hours at the range and numerous courses is what I am planning on whether or not I get an unrestricted or not.

I'm just gonna go into it and see what they approve. If I'm approved for a restricted, I will make sure to do my part in getting more experience under my belt before the renewal.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
I am planning on taking two courses on personal protection for inside and outside the house but I don't have either courses under my belt at this point.
While I am certified to teach the NRA personal protection inside the home, I suggest that you to skip it as it is a pretty lousy course. Take Massad Ayoob's MAG-20 (both classroom and range portions): http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7

Ayoob covers the basics of defensive training, but more importantly, covers the law of self defense in greater detail than anyone else. For defensive shooting, I think Cumberland Tactics Tactical Handgun 101 is excellent.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all the information. I will look into those courses. The massad course since it is not local is, probably a long shot to do though.

I do have the chance to take two personal protection courses that come recommended by people I know.

I hope the remaining portion of my application process goes off without a hitch LOL.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
 
Is this something the Police Chief has to take into consideration when issuing me what he decides to issue me?

No. Read the sticky on applying in Boston, they won't even allow you to apply for an unrestricted. It's up to the chief, if you think you've been wronged, you can appeal it in court on your dime.

Ayoob covers the basics of defensive training, but more importantly, covers the law of self defense in greater detail than anyone else.

Does he explain the self defense laws for NH, MA, other states, or just in general?
 
Does he explain the self defense laws for NH, MA, other states, or just in general?
In general. The basics apply in most states -- you can only use deadly force when you, or another innocent, are in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. What is an "immediate" threat? What is deadly force? What type of attack puts you in danger of death or grave bodily injury? What is the "ability, opportunity, jeopardy" yardstick? What should you say to police after a shooting? What are the typical symptoms of post-shooting trauma?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom