Healey "closing the loophole" letter to gun dealers

[ivarr]

the first case to bring this to the courts is NOT going to be from some random owner, FFL, or even comm2a.

it will come about from some poor ******* that is getting divorced from his hag wife that doesn't care at all about guns, but has listened to him complain about what just happened and tells hew lawyer he has illegal firearms in the house. he then brings it up in court forcing a judge to get a prosecutor to act in defense of the safety of some poor little woman in fear for her life and the lives of her children.

 

[bill o]

You are missing the fact that there is 20+ years of ATF opinions and SETTLED LAW on this matter at both the state and federal level.

Yes, and also note in my ATF quote above that the final law was much narrower, as previous versions defined copies in broad terms of functionality. This was specifically, intentionally gotten rid of by Congress.

 

[Boris]

You are missing the fact that there is 20+ years of ATF opinions and SETTLED LAW on this matter at both the state and federal level.

Moar is smarterest ... plus she is getting ****ed by an old appeleate judge, surely she knowest bestest.

 

[jhblaze1]

the first case to bring this to the courts is NOT going to be from some random owner, FFL, or even comm2a.

it will come about from some poor ******* that is getting divorced from his hag wife that doesn't care at all about guns, but has listened to him complain about what just happened and tells hew lawyer he has illegal firearms in the house. he then brings it up in court forcing a judge to get a prosecutor to act in defense of the safety of some poor little woman in fear for her life and the lives of her children.

I'm volunteering to go try to buy an AR and let Comm2A use me.
But yeah you're probably right it will be some poor bastard whose life is crumbling around him and the state will decide to crush the shit out of him.

 

[rommel]

Under your definition there would be no such thing as a copy or a duplicate. It would be a Colt AR or not. Listen, I am not trying to argue with anyone over this. I am sick to my stomach about it. My belief is that if we are going to be able to really do something about it then we really must come to grips about the reality of the situation. Healy made a stance, whether we believe in it or not. It is going to be a long and difficult road to get back to what it was a few days ago. Screaming 2A and ranting about how wrong it is does nothing. Realistically whether you believe it is right or not, given the verbiage of the law, she has a case.

Short version. If your AR-15 is literally stamped with the words "colt AR-15" and was made after the cutoff date, then it's illegal. No doubt about this. Colt cannot stamp "MH-15" on the exact same gun to get around it by making a "copy or duplicate."

In contrast, every other manufacturer/model is ONLY subject to the features test. Copies and duplicates do not apply.

I hope people are starting to understand this.

 

[RImike]

Since Boris turned a beer bottle into a large capacity feeding device. Are all bottles now banned because they look and function the same?

Bottle thread: https://www.northeastshooters.com/v...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?highlight=Boris+feeding+device

 

[WillyJP]

As it was written? She had no choice? If Maura's reinterpretation of the law is "the way the law is written", then the ATF had a decade to interpret it that way and believe me, if the law was written 22 years ago as Maura is seeing it now, the ATF would have already been enforcing that shit.

EXACTLY!!!! AR-15s, AK's, etc didn't just magically start appearing after the federal ban expired guys. Clones were available throughout the federal AWB in neutered form. She is also using two new tests to determine equivalence to a banned firearm. These tests were not applied by ATF during the federal ban. She IS re-interpreting this. People need to understand the nuances here if they want to make an effective argument to legislators, media etc.

 

[Boris]

Since Boris turned a beer bottle into a large capacity feeding device. Are all bottles now banned because they look and function the same?

Bottle thread: https://www.northeastshooters.com/v...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?highlight=Boris+feeding+device

yes, good point, it expands to all bottles, jugs and bowls ... my felony count is just keep going up every hour

 

[ivarr]

Since Boris turned a beer bottle into a large capacity feeding device. Are all bottles now banned because they look and function the same?

Bottle thread: https://www.northeastshooters.com/v...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?highlight=Boris+feeding+device

just clicked. will read now.

this is what i miss when i stop posting for a year at a time whenever i get bored with this place.

 

[bill o]

Under your definition there would be no such thing as a copy or a duplicate. It would be a Colt AR or not. Listen, I am not trying to argue with anyone over this. I am sick to my stomach about it. My belief is that if we are going to be able to really do something about it then we really must come to grips about the reality of the situation. Healy made a stance, whether we believe in it or not. It is going to be a long and difficult road to get back to what it was a few days ago. Screaming 2A and ranting about how wrong it is does nothing. Realistically whether you believe it is right or not, given the verbiage of the law, she has a case.

I'll try one more time: Colt made a model rifle called the Colt AR-15. The AWB specifically banned the Colt AR-15 by name. It also banned Colt from skirting the law by renaming the exact same gun as the Colt AR-16. The Bushmaster XM-15, for example, is only covered by the features test, because it is not a Colt AR-15 (or a re-named Colt AR-16). This was the official ATF and federal court interpretation of what "copies and duplicates" are, and we have this in writing.

 

[Da_lucche]

Under your definition there would be no such thing as a copy or a duplicate. It would be a Colt AR or not. Listen, I am not trying to argue with anyone over this. I am sick to my stomach about it. My belief is that if we are going to be able to really do something about it then we really must come to grips about the reality of the situation. Healy made a stance, whether we believe in it or not. It is going to be a long and difficult road to get back to what it was a few days ago. Screaming 2A and ranting about how wrong it is does nothing. Realistically whether you believe it is right or not, given the verbiage of the law, she has a case.

By she has a case meaning she is taking advantage of being a part of a rampant anti-gun corrupt gov body and hoping gun owners just roll over and submit, then sure, she has a case.

 

[bigblue]

I'll try one more time: Colt made a model rifle called the Colt AR-15. The AWB specifically banned the Colt AR-15 by name. It also banned Colt from skirting the law by renaming the exact same gun as the Colt AR-16. The Bushmaster XM-15, for example, is only covered by the features test, because it is not a Colt AR-15 (or a re-named Colt AR-16). This was the official ATF and federal court interpretation of what "copies and duplicates" are, and we have this in writing.

Rommel, what he is trying to say is that the law is much more than what you read as black letter law: There is case law and opinions on this topic that go back TWENTY TWO YEARS. The totality of all of that information constitutes what the law is as it stands today. All lawyers know this, it is taught from day one in law school. She just doesn't give a shit.

 

[rommel]

As it was written? She had no choice? If Maura's reinterpretation of the law is "the way the law is written", then the ATF had a decade to interpret it that way and believe me, if the law was written 22 years ago as Maura is seeing it now, the ATF would have already been enforcing that shit.

You keep looking at the federal level and Healey is looking at the state laws. Our state law states:

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC?70); (iv) Colt AR?15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M?10, M?11, M?11/9 and M?12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC?9, TEC?DC9 and TEC?22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12

I am no legal expert by any stretch but I can see how she has a case. It makes it difficult because she can interpret it that way and at the very least get a stay of sales til it runs through the courts.

 

[bigblue]

You keep looking at the federal level and Healey is looking at the state laws. Our state law states:

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC?70); (iv) Colt AR?15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M?10, M?11, M?11/9 and M?12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC?9, TEC?DC9 and TEC?22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12

I am no legal expert by any stretch but I can see how she has a case. It makes it difficult because she can interpret it that way and at the very least get a stay of sales til it runs through the courts.

Dude seriously, that is a ****ing copy of the federal AWB almost word for word. In fact, our AWB references the federal ban.


ETA This is what the federal ban states:

• (b) DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON- Section 921(a) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following:

• ‘(30) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means--

• ‘(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms, known as--

• ‘(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

• ‘(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

• ‘(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

• ‘(iv) Colt AR-15;

• ‘(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

• ‘(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

• ‘(vii) Steyr AUG;

• ‘(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

• ‘(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

• ‘(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

• ‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

• ‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

• ‘(iii) a bayonet mount;

• ‘(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

• ‘(v) a grenade launcher;

• ‘(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

 

[Boris]

You keep looking at the federal level and Healey is looking at the state laws. Our state law states:

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC?70); (iv) Colt AR?15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M?10, M?11, M?11/9 and M?12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC?9, TEC?DC9 and TEC?22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12

I am no legal expert by any stretch but I can see how she has a case. It makes it difficult because she can interpret it that way and at the very least get a stay of sales til it runs through the courts.

civ versions DO NOT duplicate functionality of actual AK or M16, they are neutured with many parts missing, different receiver, different extractor cut on semi vs full auto AK.

 

[rommel]

I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to understand what is going on. I appreciate people informing me so I can get clarity on how to proceed as I am legitimately upset about this.

 

[CrackPot]

Sorry if "asked and answered" somewhere in the almost 4000 posts.

Multiple non-FA10ed lowers in safe.

If I build them out I "need" to FA10 per MA law. Doing so would mean potentially admitting to having committed a crime per our fine AG.

So it seems likely that one has a defense against charges of not registering since it would be self incrimination.

Does not address the legality of possessing the post 7/20/16 AR15 of course.

 

[Boris]

I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to understand what is going on. I appreciate people informing me so I can get clarity on how to proceed as I am legitimately upset about this.

no worries, reality is no one knows for sure, for today, for tomorrow, it's just a bunch of anonymous advises that don't won't stand in court as a defense anyway.

 

[richc]

There's really no sense in bringing the law and logic to this argument. This is politics 101. And dirty politics at its finest.

She's playing to her own liberal beliefs system and to the voting crowd that happens to believe the same. This has zero to do with law and logic.

 

[Dressed to Kill]

I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to understand what is going on. I appreciate people informing me so I can get clarity on how to proceed as I am legitimately upset about this.

By their own definition it's not an " Assault Weapon " or a copy. It doesn't have the ability to attach a flash hider considering a muzzle device is pinned and welded on. It doesn't have a telescoping stock seeing it's pinned. It doesn't have a bayonet lug , or the ability to attach a grenade launcher. By their own definition it's not a copy.

 

[Bfatz]

Healy added that she is issuing the directive “In the face of utter inaction by Congress” and argued that “[n]ot only do we have the legal authority to do so, we have a moral obligation to do so.”

Perhaps the manufacturers should announce that since it is illegal to sell these weapons in Massachusetts, they regrettably will not be able to sell these weapons to any law enforcement agency within the state.

 

[Boris]

Sorry if "asked and answered" somewhere in the almost 4000 posts.

Multiple non-FA10ed lowers in safe.

If I build them out I "need" to FA10 per MA law. Doing so would mean potentially admitting to having committed a crime per our fine AG.

So it seems likely that one has a defense against charges of not registering since it would be self incrimination.

Does not address the legality of possessing the post 7/20/16 AR15 of course.

take the 5th

 

[bigblue]

I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to understand what is going on. I appreciate people informing me so I can get clarity on how to proceed as I am legitimately upset about this.

Listen, here is the bottom line: The MA AWB was modeled after the federal AWB. In fact, it both contains identical language and references the federal definitions where they are not defined at the state level. This includes the section that I copied above: The MA & Federal sections are identical in their wording. The MA AWB was put into place to override the sunset provision of the federal ban and has extended past that sunset to today. In the intervening 22 years from the original ban up to and including today to the MA ban, there is both settled case law and there are ATF opinions precisely covering this definition. This is akin to Maura stating that Brown v Education never happened and then busing white kids out of Murderpan to white only schools in Sudbury. She can't do that, not because there is a law that says she cant, but because there is case law that contradicts that interpretation.

I do feel that it is important that people understand WHY she can't do what she is attempting to do, not just that it is a dirty political move.

 

[Minuteman Armament]

Sorry if "asked and answered" somewhere in the almost 4000 posts.

Multiple non-FA10ed lowers in safe.

If I build them out I "need" to FA10 per MA law. Doing so would mean potentially admitting to having committed a crime per our fine AG.

So it seems likely that one has a defense against charges of not registering since it would be self incrimination.

Does not address the legality of possessing the post 7/20/16 AR15 of course.

No one knows. This is very new. But right now she is only after dealers. Individuals are alright... For now.

 

[bgoum]

Sorry if "asked and answered" somewhere in the almost 4000 posts.

Multiple non-FA10ed lowers in safe.

If I build them out I "need" to FA10 per MA law. Doing so would mean potentially admitting to having committed a crime per our fine AG.

So it seems likely that one has a defense against charges of not registering since it would be self incrimination.

Does not address the legality of possessing the post 7/20/16 AR15 of course.

What lowers?

 

[pupchow]

Perhaps the manufacturers should announce that since it is illegal to sell these weapons in Massachusetts, they regrettably will not be able to sell these weapons to any law enforcement agency within the state.

Right... Like the way S&W scrubbed all "MA-compliant" versions from their site, immediately.

 

[rommel]

I'll try one more time: Colt made a model rifle called the Colt AR-15. The AWB specifically banned the Colt AR-15 by name. It also banned Colt from skirting the law by renaming the exact same gun as the Colt AR-16. The Bushmaster XM-15, for example, is only covered by the features test, because it is not a Colt AR-15 (or a re-named Colt AR-16). This was the official ATF and federal court interpretation of what "copies and duplicates" are, and we have this in writing.

Got it thanks. But is our state laws subject to the same interpretation that the federal courts concluded, or is having our own state laws even though written similarly (identically) to the federal ban subject to its own unique interpretation.

 

[pupchow]

Got it thanks. But is our state laws subject to the same interpretation that the federal courts concluded, or is having our own state laws even though written similarly (identically) to the federal ban subject to its own unique interpretation.

Is there a specific concern you're attempting to resolve here?

 

[chris_1001]

Bans, approved roster, several versions of LTC's (and an FID). May issue, storage laws, mag limits, etc...

I cannot take this shit... What part of I swear to uphold the constitution was so tough to remember???? You failed your oath. You failed the people of this state. You do not have to agree with the constitution, but you do not have the right or authority to screw with it. Your job is to uphold it, personal opinions aside.

Edit to add.

As I read the constitution, I should be allowed machine guns and grenades (and a whole lot more) If its good enough for the military, its good enough for a citizen!

 

[ivarr]

Got it thanks. But is our state laws subject to the same interpretation that the federal courts concluded, or is having our own state laws even though written similarly (identically) to the federal ban subject to its own unique interpretation.

fed laws mean nothing.
if the **** decides to actually prosecute someone they WILL be convicted and serve time. we are at least 5 years from this matter being decided in either the courts or legislature