Guns allowed in preschool/kindergarten?

[GSG]

Question about the law that I'm pretty sure I have the answer to, but my search didn't come up with the answer.

MGL 269-10j:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

I'm assuming that one could carry a gun into a pre-school or kindergarten legally?

 

[n1oty]

I would not want to be the guy............

..............who gets to test that interpretation. Many kindergartens are within elementary school buildings anyway, so that part may be moot, depending on the circumstances. I know that some Pre-K and K's are located by themselves. I do not know of any case law directly on point. Unless someone can point us to somewhat recent binding opinions, it may come down to the courts interpreting legislative intent. I could easily envision a decision based on such intent as going either way. Personally, I would never carry on any grounds under the control of a school department, college, etc., but that's me.

Question about the law that I'm pretty sure I have the answer to, but my search didn't come up with the answer.



I'm assuming that one could carry a gun into a pre-school or kindergarten legally?

 

[M1911]

I'm assuming that one could carry a gun into a pre-school or kindergarten legally?

That would NOT be my assumption.

 

[vellnueve]

Yeah... I think it would take a half-decent prosecutor about 15 minutes to sway a MA jury to lock you for for life.

 

[jdubois]

Technically, yes. Good luck with that.

 

[GSG]

Technically, yes. Good luck with that.

Allow me to expand on this. A friend just got his LTC, and he goes to a church that runs a small preschool in the church building.

I came up with a few cases.

Commonwealth v. Earle Laro says in part:

This appeal presents the question whether the Commonwealth's evidence was sufficient to sustain the defendant's conviction for distribution of a controlled substance within 1,000 feet of a school zone. Specifically, the defendant challenges whether there was sufficient evidence that the school in question was covered by G. L. c. 94C, § 32J. We affirm.

later

See also Jackson v. Virginia, supra at 324 n.16. Here, the defendant does not contest the evidence that supports his conviction for distributing cocaine, but only that he did so in the statutorily defined school zone. The school zone statute provides a mandatory minimum penalty of two years for one convicted of distributing any one of a variety of controlled substances within 1,000 feet of "a public or private accredited preschool, accredited headstart facility, elementary, vocational, or secondary school whether or not in session."

MGL 94C-32j says:

CHAPTER 94C. CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT


Chapter 94C: Section 32J. Controlled substances violations in, on, or near school property


Section 32J. Any person who violates the provisions of section thirty-two, thirty-two A, thirty-two B, thirty-two C, thirty-two D, thirty-two E, thirty-two F or thirty-two I while in or on, or within one thousand feet of the real property comprising a public or private accredited preschool, accredited headstart facility, elementary, vocational, or secondary school whether or not in session, or within one hundred feet of a public park or playground shall be punished by a term of imprisonment in the state prison for not less than two and one-half nor more than fifteen years or by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not less than two nor more than two and one-half years. No sentence imposed under the provisions of this section shall be for less than a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of two years. A fine of not less than one thousand nor more than ten thousand dollars may be imposed but not in lieu of the mandatory minimum two year term of imprisonment as established herein. In accordance with the provisions of section eight A of chapter two hundred and seventy-nine such sentence shall begin from and after the expiration of the sentence for violation of section thirty-two, thirty-two A, thirty-two B, thirty-two C, thirty-two D, thirty-two E, thirty-two F or thirty-two I.

Lack of knowledge of school boundaries shall not be a defense to any person who violates the provisions of this section.

It's very specific about what kind of school it is.

But MGL 269-10j says:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.

I agree that this is Mass. and I wouldn't expect any freebies, but it seems like he'd be OK.

To be on the safe side, I'm assuming he could request permission in writing to carry there and be covered even if a preschool was protected under 269-10j, right?

 

[M1911]

To be on the safe side, I'm assuming he could request permission in writing to carry there and be covered even if a preschool was protected under 269-10j, right?

If he can get that in writing from the head of the school, then he'd be all set even if they did decide that it meets the definition of a school in 269-10j.

 

[Mainer]

..if the kids can't bring 'em, not likely we can.

Off topic, slightly, just had a brief discussion last night of having kids at the club, under adult supervision, using the pistol range and inadvertently ending up with spent cartridges in their hoodsies and/or wedged in the soles of their boots then unknowingly bringing them to school. A club member posed this what-if to the school principal who said they would without doubt suspend the student.

Zero tolerance.

 

[arlow]

Define elementary school.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/glossary/e.asp

Elementary school: An elementary/secondary school with one or more grades of K-6 that does not have any grade higher than grade 8. For example, schools with grades K-6, 1-3, or 6-8 are classified as elementary.

 

[GSG]

Define elementary school.

See post #6, Mass. defines it differently in different areas of law.

 

[M1911]

Define elementary school.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/glossary/e.asp

Elementary school: An elementary/secondary school with one or more grades of K-6 that does not have any grade higher than grade 8. For example, schools with grades K-6, 1-3, or 6-8 are classified as elementary.

The common language usage is not necessarily the same as the legal usage. Witness the definition of the word "firearm" in MGL Chapter 140.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I would expect that pre-schools would not fall under the definition, but it's also important to understand that most police don't understand 269-10j beyond "guns are illegal on school property". There are also some interesting cases which establish that different wording in difference section of laws are construed to have meaning (more so when the different meaning in within the same chapter). I am aware of cases dismissed because a gun was in the car but not "one one's person". Of course, if someone does something STUPID like saying the "locked the gun in the trunk before entering the school", the could find that they actually admitted to violation of the law.

I'd guess that fewer than one in ten police could accurately explain the nuances of the "carried on one's person" provision, or who would let a gun owner continue on his/her way in possession of a known, not on one's person, gun in the car noticed during a routine stop on school property. Do you really thing the U-Mass, Harvard, MIT, or other school police are trained "If you see a gun case or the driver admites there is a gun in the vehicle, verify the FID/LTC and refer for internal discipline if a student or employee, but do not detain the person or firearm if they are a non-student/non-staff visitor to campus?"

If he can get that in writing from the head of the school, then he'd be all set even if they did decide that it meets the definition of a school in 269-10j.

You might as well ask for a letter from the head of the school stating "I agree my entire career in academia at this or any other school will come to an immediate end if you mis-use the gun I grant you permission to carry. Please be careful as I value my job.". It might happen if you are so famous that just having you visit the school increases it's stature, or if the request is to have your security staff arrive armed when you meet with the school president to review the plans for the new building you are donating but other than that all you are doing is asking a career academic to bet his/her entire future employment on your behavior. In other words, if your visit to the school does not result in a press release from the PR department, permission is not gonna happen


On the other hand, if you get killed or your daughter gets raped, no one is going to fire the university president because he turned down a request for permission to be armed.

 

[theGringo]

To enter a classroom of 20 or so 5-year olds without a gun is to take your life into your hands. But if you want training in the defensive use of safety scissors, see me. Glue sticks can also be used as improvised weapons, and a balloon filled with glitter can be as effective as a claymore mine if you possess the know-how.

I'm the McGyver of Kindergarten!

 

[M1911]

I'd guess that fewer than one in ten police could accurately explain the nuances of the "carried on one's person" provision, or who would let a gun owner continue on his/her way in possession of a known, not on one's person, gun in the car noticed during a routine stop on school property. Do you really thing the U-Mass, Harvard, MIT, or other school police are trained "If you see a gun case of the driver admites there is a gun in the vehicle, verify the FID/LTC and refer for internal discipline of a student or employee, but do not detain the person of firearm if they are a non-student/non-staff visitor to campus?"

Agreed. I would not expect that a police officer would understand that a kindergarten is not a school per MGL 269 10j (if that is, in fact, the case). And after the arrest, if the prosecution collapsed, I would expect my CLEO to find me unsuitable.

You might as well ask for a letter from the head of the school stating "I agree my entire career in academia at this or any other school will come to an immediate end if you mis-use the gun I grant you permission to carry. Please be careful as I value my job."

In this case, if I properly read the posts, the kindergarten is in a church, and the person in question is a member of that church. So it may not be as unlikely as it would be if it was a town run kindergarten.

 

[KMaurer]

The different listings of what's considered to be a school in MGL 269-10j (omitting Pre-K) and MGL 94C-32j (including them), clearly indicate that the legislature is aware of that there are different common definitions and can specify exactly what they mean when they write a law. As a result, standard legal interpretation of the language would force the court to accept that the legislature intended that a pre-kindergarten not be considered as a school under MGL 269-10j, since they would have explicitly listed it as they did in MGL 94C-32j if they had wanted in covered by the law.

Pre-school and pre-kindergartens are regulated and licensed by the Department of Early Education and Care, while K-12 falls under the Department of Education, and Colleges, Universities and Trade Schools under the Department of Higher Education. As a result there exists in Massachusetts law a precise definition of what constitutes a "school", and pre-kindergartens don't meet that legal standard.

None of this matters in the least, of course, since guns are evil, and (all together now) it's for the children. If you're caught carrying around anything vaguely resembling a school (e.g., a library, book store or anyplace books might be found), expect trouble. The police most likely would understand the distinction, and the courts wouldn't care.

Ken

 

[Kenny474]

I am completely ignorant to Mass laws so my opinion means little if anything.


In my opinion I wouldn't bring a gun anywhere near a kindergarten simply because anti-gun supporters would likely see no need of it and should anything ever come of it you would likely end up in jail or at least lose your LTC. Guns around children is often a sore subject and not looked upon very well, I can see no good to come of it and until you have in writing from the school and a judge that you have permission to do so, I would not risk it. Your rights are too important to gamble in a situation such as this.

But as I said I am ignorant and un-edjucated in matters such as this and I simply state my opinion.
Kenny

 

[theGringo]

Guns around children is often a sore subject and not looked upon very well ...

Unless, of course, it's in association with the DARE program. I recently commented to a "substitute" principal that it was ironic that an anti-violence program would be taught by a man with a pistol strapped to his hip.

I offered the quote: "We sleep safely in our beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.".

The man laughed. Nervously. Really.

 

[GSG]

Thanks for the input everyone. It seems like the answer to my question is it's legal, but expect hassle if anyone finds out for any reason.

As far as I know this is a church run pre-school that only operates during daytime hours. My buddy just got his LTC, and we're trying to figure out where carrying would and wouldn't be off limits in his everyday life. He's a member of the church, but he has nothing to do with the pre-school, and isn't at the church when it's in session. But since they're in the same building, it brings up the question. I never realized how fortunate it is for me that my church doesn't run any programs like this.

It also seems like it would be covered under the Gun Free School Zones Act, because:

The term school zone means in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

The term school means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

So it seems like pre-schools are exempt, but what about kindergartens? Do they fall into the same classification?

I just checked the church website and it says that they're licensed with the Department of Early Education and Care, for kids aged 2.9 to 7.0 years. It also says that it's a nursery school.

Is any of this significant? This would be funny if it weren't so confusing for people who wish to obey the law.

 

[vellnueve]

Gun Free School Zone act is a non-issue for any licensed resident of MA due to the exemptions.

 

[Half Cocked]

It would be legal in the circumstance you described. Pre-school inside of a church.

If the pre-school was on the "grounds" of an elementary school it would be a no-go.

Kindergarten is generally part of the elementary school and would be a no-go. I would also say a private kindergarten would be a no-go.

 

[GSG]

So to make sure I have this correct:

Guns on property that houses a preschool is OK under 269-10j.

Guns on property that houses a kindergarten is only OK under 269-10j with written permission from the head of the school.

I'll do some more research on the church end to find out what kind of a school it is.

So it's safe to say if the word "kindergarten" is posted somewhere, carry isn't allowed without written consent, right?

 

[GSG]

Anyone?

 

[M1911]

Guns on property that houses a preschool is OK under 269-10j.

Guns on property that houses a kindergarten is only OK under 269-10j with written permission from the head of the school.

I'll do some more research on the church end to find out what kind of a school it is.

So it's safe to say if the word "kindergarten" is posted somewhere, carry isn't allowed without written consent, right?

Free legal advice is worth just what you paid for it. Many of us have opinions about this but few of us are attorneys and few of us have access to case law.

So the best that I could say would be "maybe." Talking about MA gun laws it is seldom "safe to say" anything, IMHO.

 

[GSG]

Free legal advice is worth just what you paid for it. Many of us have opinions about this but few of us are attorneys and few of us have access to case law.

So the best that I could say would be "maybe." Talking about MA gun laws it is seldom "safe to say" anything, IMHO.

True. My goal is to double check my logic, that's all.

 

[dbhn]

Funny, my town's preschool is located in the same building as the police department. I still assume it is a no-no if I need to go there.

 

[Polibious]

Hmm. A slight twist to the question being discussed, what about less than lethal items, like pepper spray? Would that be considered a "dangerous" weapon or fall under ammunition?

 

[M1911]

Hmm. A slight twist to the question being discussed, what about less than lethal items, like pepper spray? Would that be considered a "dangerous" weapon or fall under ammunition?

Yes. According to some of the LEOs on the board, it has been prosecuted using the "dangerous weapon" part of 269 10j. It is also considered ammunition.

 

[GSG]

Many of us have opinions about this but few of us are attorneys and few of us have access to case law.

I just thought I'd update this thread with some case law.

I found them at http://www.masscases.com

Commonwealth vs. Corey Ramos and Commonwealth vs. Wayne Lo are the only two cases that I found that reference MGL 269-10(j), but neither take place in a preschool or kindergarten, unfortunately, so it doesn't tell us much more than was already here in the thread.

 

[Mark from MA]

True. My goal is to double check my logic, that's all.

Now that's your problem....your trying to apply logic to the MA laws.

And your logic will be very different from some liberally appointed judge's logic......

 

[lord1234]

Related question:
Does this govern religious schools? For example, you go to church/synagogue and there is CCD/hebrew school there. Can you carry?