Gun shows

[Shane]

Are private firearms transactions (ie. gun shows) reported to the Federal government?

NH? ME? VT? MA?

 

[Thor67]

True private sales of firearms are (ie you to me for example) are supposed to use an FA10 form in MA. Other states have their own things.

At gun shows, most of the people selling firearms (at least in MA) are dealers. The dealers have to comply with all state and Federal laws including NICS background check, and all other notifications.

 

[Moderator]

You cannot buy a pistol out of state and bring it back (This is federal law). You must have the pistol shipped to a FFL in your state, then transfered to you. You can buy a rifle out of state, then you must fill out a FA10(MA Residents) form upon returning. I believe you have 7 days to do so.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Typeo is right . . . to a point.

He forgot . . . Fed Law does NOT allow anyone to buy a long gun either out of state unless one of you is an FFL! So if you see someone (private party) at a NH show selling a long gun you want, the two of you go over to some dealer's table and purchase it, do the NICS/4473 and off you go.

 

[Shane]

If you walk the aisles at a gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of tables are owned by licensed firearms dealers. If you buy a gun from one of those tables, you will go through the same paperwork (the federal form 4473) and the same background check (once the Brady handgun check, but now the NRA-backed "instant check" on both handguns and long guns) as if you bought the gun at the dealer`s storefront. If a person is not engaged in the business of selling guns, he may sell firearms without a federal license. For example, if a gun collector dies and his widow does not want to maintain the collection, she is entitled to sell it. Even if the collection were large (say, for the sake of argument, 50 guns), her sale of the guns would not require a federal firearms license since she is just selling off inherited property and is not "engaged in the business." Once the sale is over, she will not continue buying and selling firearms.

Kind of destroys the gun show loophole argument because the straw man is going to get screwed, the risk appears almost suicidal. There is no real loop hole.

 

[Shane]

Most of the tables are FFL gun dealers correct?

 

[Moderator]

Typeo is right . . . to a point.

He forgot . . . .

 

[drgrant]

Kind of destroys the gun show loophole argument because the straw man is going to get screwed, the risk appears almost suicidal. There is no real loop hole.

Well, the negative connotation is something like this..... in many cases,
the antis are whining because private sellers at gun shows are often not
doing "homework" on their buyer to ensure that the buyer is indeed a resident
of their own state. Fuirther, the antis also whine that even when such
transactions are done legally (or quasi legally, eg, like with a guy that
has a forged state ID) that no background check is being conducted on the
person buying the gun.

The part the antis have all wrong though is that they act like private sales
are a large portion of gun show commerce, and that's simply a huge load
of BS. I'd place a fair wager that 90%+ of all "business" going on at
a gunshow is done through an FFL (and thus involving a mandatory
NICS check) even in the free states.

IMO crime guns don't come from gun shows... they come from criminals
illegally straw purchasing cheap junk handguns from an FFL, or they come
from people who steal the guns (from peoples cars, and homes, and even
from the police!) and then sell them on the street.

-Mike

 

[Shane]

Typeo is right . . . to a point.

He forgot . . . Fed Law does NOT allow anyone to buy a long gun either out of state unless one of you is an FFL! So if you see someone (private party) at a NH show selling a long gun you want, the two of you go over to some dealer's table and purchase it, do the NICS/4473 and off you go.

LEARN SOMETHING NEW EVERY DAY

 

[drgrant]

Most of the tables are FFL gun dealers correct?

In MA, I've never seen someone privately selling guns at a
table (max would be 4 yr, but the show operators may not even
allow it!) so yeah, most of the dealers end up being Type 01 FFL's.

In the free states it varies. At a show I went to in NH, probably 90+%
of the tables with guns were Type 01 FFL's. I saw 2 or 3 tables with
people selling guns privately, but they didn't have much for sale.

-Mike

 

[Shane]

Well, the negative connotation is something like this..... in many cases,
the antis are whining because private sellers at gun shows are often not
doing "homework" on their buyer to ensure that the buyer is indeed a resident
of their own state. Fuirther, the antis also whine that even when such
transactions are done legally (or quasi legally, eg, like with a guy that
has a forged state ID) that no background check is being conducted on the
person buying the gun.

The part the antis have all wrong though is that they act like private sales
are a large portion of gun show commerce, and that's simply a huge load
of BS. I'd place a fair wager that 90%+ of all "business" going on at
a gunshow is done through an FFL (and thus involving a mandatory
NICS check) even in the free states.

IMO crime guns don't come from gun shows... they come from criminals
illegally straw purchasing cheap junk handguns from an FFL, or they come
from people who steal the guns (from peoples cars, and homes, and even
from the police!) and then sell them on the street.

-Mike

I see.

 

[Jose]

True private sales of firearms are (ie you to me for example) are supposed to use an FA10 form in MA. Other states have their own things.

The overwhelming majority of states have nothing.

You pay your money and get your gun. Simple as that.

 

[Jose]

Gun shows have become a huge waste of time. Beef jerky, beanie babies, and surplus crap galore. Same-o same-o kinds of fudd guns and chinese crap scopes and binoculars.

I will go if I need a large quantity of common primers or powder since I avoid any hazmat fees.

For everything else there is e-commerce. I have give up trying to make face to face deals at shows. First, hardly any private sellers any more. Second, the few that are around think their gun is made of gold.

 

[Len-2A Training]

In MA, I've never seen someone privately selling guns at a
table (max would be 4 yr, but the show operators may not even
allow it!) so yeah, most of the dealers end up being Type 01 FFL's.

In the free states it varies. At a show I went to in NH, probably 90+%
of the tables with guns were Type 01 FFL's. I saw 2 or 3 tables with
people selling guns privately, but they didn't have much for sale.

-Mike

Mike,

Generally the promoters will NOT rent a table to a Non-FFL (in MA) if the person tells her that they are going to sell guns.

ALSO, MA DOR does a "walk around" looking for MA Sales Tax Certificates at each table just as each show opens (I know, as I've been hit twice while working the GOAL tables). If you don't have one you have two choices: be fined or sign up for a Tax Certificate . . . which means you are running a business, must collect and pay the tax at least annually to the state, and declare it as INCOME on your tax return. Not many mere citizens want to do this just to sell off 2 or 4 guns from their collection!

 

[Carguy]

I have been lead to believe that simply possessing handuns without a LTC in MA is illegal. So the wife that inherited the collection from her deceased husband is in violation of the law simply for possessing said collection never mind attempting to transport and sell them (assuming a show were involved). Years ago I when I foolishly moved back to MA, I did not immediately apply for a new LTC (which I had originally in MA, then CT and NY) but was informed that simply possessing the weapons I had (several handguns including a 1911) were considered a violation even just having them in my house without a valid LTC. Was this incorrect?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Carguy, yes and no to both. Both have been discussed to death before. Advanced Search should uncover them.

- Executor/executrix of an estate can possess to dispose of the guns under the terms of the will for 180 days without a LTC legally. Then must get a LTC or hand off to a dealer.

- New residents have a grace period of 90 days (IIRC) to possess in home while obtaining a LTC. Can NOT transport them anywhere else and after that time period they would be committing a crime to have them without a LTC.

 

[Scrivener]

- New residents have a grace period of 90 days (IIRC) to possess in home while obtaining a LTC. Can NOT transport them anywhere else and after that time period they would be committing a crime to have them without a LTC.

The time period is sixty (60) days.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks for the correction!

Just be aware that the process of lining up a MA certification course, getting your paperwork in and the interview with your licensing officer (required by many towns) and the wait will almost always exceed 60 days! Either get the course out of the way pre-moving here or find a friend in MA with a LTC to store your guns just before the 60 days are up. [Better yet, don't move to MA!]

 

[Lynne]

- New residents have a grace period of 90 days (IIRC) to possess in home while obtaining a LTC. Can NOT transport them anywhere else and after that time period they would be committing a crime to have them without a LTC.

And let us not forget, they must be "locked in a secured container or with a tamper resistant mechanical locking device."

 

[vellnueve]

Thanks for the correction!

[Better yet, don't move to MA!]

+1

 

[Wildweasel]

The Gun show loophole refered to is mostly out west/down south. in many states they do not have the 4 guns a year private sales law that mass has on the books and folks can sell quite a few guns at the gun shows.

BUT and heres the big one, if you are buying and selling for profit you are then engaged "IN the bussiness" of selling firearms and the ATF will likley be looking for you. the ATF doesn't go after joe sixpack who is selling of daddys guns but if Joe then takes the profits from said sale and buys more stock to sell at the next show then that is bad news.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As Glenn points out . . . in those states BATFE is in abundant attendance to harass non FFLs who sell guns where it might be "gray" ("in the business" issue). No need to do that in MA as non-dealers are usually denied a table at any gun show.

 

[Scrivener]

The Gun show loophole refered to is mostly out west/down south. in many states they do not have the 4 guns a year private sales law that mass has on the books and folks can sell quite a few guns at the gun shows.

Then just what is the alleged "loophole?"

There is no such thing, and posts such as the above feed the anti-gunner myth that one exists - thus requiring a Federal "remedy."

Regardless of where the sale occurs; dealer showroom or a flea market, an FFL must comply with all state and local laws when transferring a firearm. That means NICS, completed 4473s and bound book entries.

THERE IS NO "GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE. " PERIOD.

 

[FeeBear]

Carguy, yes and no to both. Both have been discussed to death before. Advanced Search should uncover them.

- Executor/executrix of an estate can possess to dispose of the guns under the terms of the will for 180 days without a LTC legally. Then must get a LTC or hand off to a dealer.

- New residents have a grace period of 90 days (IIRC) to possess in home while obtaining a LTC. Can NOT transport them anywhere else and after that time period they would be committing a crime to have them without a LTC.

Wow, Len good pun. Discussed to Death and the person being dead.

 

[Jose]

Then just what is the alleged "loophole?"

There is no such thing, as posts such as the above feed the anti-gunner myth that one exists - thus requiring a Federal "remedy."

Regardless of where the sale occurs; dealer showroom or a flea market, an FFL must comply with all state and local laws when transferring a firearm. That means NICS, completed 4473s and bound book entries.

THERE IS NO "GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE. PERIOD.

+1

Wildweasel, tell me how can a gun show loop hole exist if I (as a non-FFL) can sell my guns directly to another person, not only at a gun show, but at my house, gun club, or even out of the back of my truck.

 

[Wildweasel]

Look guys you want to beat me up fine.
the loophole the antis refer to be it right or wrong is private sales and "private "dealers. the loophole being that they will not go through the background checks that you would if you went through a dealer.

AKA a private sale. thats what they are trying to eliminate.

We ALL know that you buy from a FFL you do the 4473 and whatever paperwork your state requires. And that is at a gunshow or not.

Shrivner I was NOT REFERING TO FFL DEALERS IN MY POST.

 

[Scrivener]

the loophole the antis refer to be it right or wrong is private sales and "private "dealers. the loophole being that they will not go through the background checks that you would if you went through a dealer.

Your term, "private dealer," is an oxymoron. One either holds an FFL or one does not. Period.

AKA a private sale. thats what they are trying to eliminate.

We ALL know that you buy from a FFL you do the 4473 and whatever paperwork your state requires. And that is at a gunshow or not.

What "they are trying to eliminate" is private possession of guns,PERIOD. To do that, "they" are claiming is that gun shows are wholly exempt from any regulation. They ignore the fact that an FFL is required to comply with Federal law regardless of where the transaction is and paint gun shows as a throwback to the Wild West. Most people are too ignorant to understand the difference between private and licensed transfers; further, the antis play up private transfers as Nazis, milita wackos and gang-bangers buying bazookas and Uzis out of each others' trunks.

Your use of the term "gun show loophole" aids and abets the antis by giving credence to a fabrication. That fact is not altered by your ex post facto rationalization.

When you use the antis' language, you put the argument on their terms, meaning THEY WIN! Another reason I don't refer to any of my guns as a "weapon," assault or otherwise, except in terms dripping with sarcasm.

 

[Wildweasel]

the term "Private dealer " That I referenced was to help explain what the anti's are complaining about, yes it is a nonsense term. you are a dealer or not.

I am well aware of what they are trying to do. I am not your enemy you pompous ass. I have owned guns for over 35 years and had a LTC since I was 18. I have been a C&R FFL for over 6. I am a US ARMY Vet.
I am not aiding and abetting the enemy and EVERY DAY I educate people about what guns can and can't do. (I work at UMASS surrounded by liberals)
Instead of fighting the antis you are fighting me a gun enthusiast for most of my life.

In my posts above I Was NOT posting about mass gun shows. I was NOT discussing FFL's at the gun shows. I was talking about the anti's and private sales. which is their next attack point. I guess we can't discuss this as it "May give them IDEAS!" they already have them. and if we don't discuss them or counter them other than yelling at each other we are lost.

And you know what you windbag? your "Guns" ARE WEAPONS.
unless it is a target gun it was designed as a tool for defense or offense.

You are one of the reasons I have not posted in parts of the forum.
while you can often provide insight on Mass laws you are more often a disruptive force on these boards. You may be a good Lawyer but you really need to tone things down.

You can take it to IM's or email if you want. this is taking the thread off topic.

 

[Scrivener]

You've stated your position; I've stated mine.

Having no need to explain, rationalize or defend mine, I will post no further on this thread.

 

[LoginName]

the term "Private dealer " That I referenced was to help explain what the anti's are complaining about, yes it is a nonsense term. you are a dealer or not.

I am well aware of what they are trying to do. I am not your enemy you pompous ass. I have owned guns for over 35 years and had a LTC since I was 18. I have been a C&R FFL for over 6. I am a US ARMY Vet.
I am not aiding and abetting the enemy and EVERY DAY I educate people about what guns can and can't do. (I work at UMASS surrounded by liberals)
Instead of fighting the antis you are fighting me a gun enthusiast for most of my life.

In my posts above I Was NOT posting about mass gun shows. I was NOT discussing FFL's at the gun shows. I was talking about the anti's and private sales. which is their next attack point. I guess we can't discuss this as it "May give them IDEAS!" they already have them. and if we don't discuss them or counter them other than yelling at each other we are lost.

And you know what you windbag? your "Guns" ARE WEAPONS.
unless it is a target gun it was designed as a tool for defense or offense.

You are one of the reasons I have not posted in parts of the forum.
while you can often provide insight on Mass laws you are more often a disruptive force on these boards. You may be a good Lawyer but you really need to tone things down.

You can take it to IM's or email if you want. this is taking the thread off topic.

At least he didn't comment on your capitalization skills.