Getting a All Lawful Purpose upgrade

Laura

Laura

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My permit is currently a Class A with a restriction for "Work Purposes." Obviously, since I don't work where I need to carry, I can't carry. This October, I'm looking to renew. I was told that when I renew I'll "probably get the upgrade" but there's no guaranty. I live in Peabody where practically no one gets the all lawful purpose license unless they've been robbed, a victim of a violent crime, or wealthy enough to hire a good lawyer. But I may be getting ahead of myself....

I'm trying to think of ways to improve my chances assuming the upgrade is a "maybe." I'm considering taking another gun safety course and maybe a couple of courses at the Sig Academy too. Any thoughts on this and when I should plan to renew to avoid delays?
 
Become an instructor, then tell them that (in addition to your 9-5 job) you're self-employed as a MA state certified firearms instructor, and while your don't carry large sums of cash, you do routinely carry several thousand dollars worth of firearms. When/if they balk at that ask them whether they'd prefer trying to arrest the guy who just stole a bag full of paper bills or the guy who just stole a dozen of so rifles, shotguns and handguns. OTOH, maybe that would demonstrate more attitude than they'd like.

Ken
 
Courses are not likely to impress the chief or licensing officer.

Take courses for your own knowledge/development, but don't assume that they will help your case.

You can't afford not to use a lawyer if you are serious about wanting a LTC-A/ALP in a difficult town.
 
I have a similar question on upgrade, but I'm not due for renew any time soon. I live in a difficult town of Newton and was told by our police leutenant they don't issue a ALP at all. My current LTC is cluss A for hunting, sporting and target. I really feel restricted in my citizen rights and would gladly spend some reasonable money on professional legal help to fix the problem. My question is if it makes any sense to you to start the battle if I'm not due for the renewal? Can I loose my LTC at all if I choose to challenge the authorities?
 
Jack,

Here's the problem:

- There is NO right of appeal (in legal system) for class or restriction of licenses, only for issue/refuse.

- The chief decides what he will issue and to whom. Unless you have political clout above him, he's the sole arbiter of that decision.

- A chief can pull a LTC at any time for any reason or no reason at all. Little that you can really do about it.

- Only way to get it "unrestricted" in a difficult town is to literally sit down with the chief and beg! A lawyer can help, but I'm not at all certain that anything will succeed against a chief where "NO" is the only answer to ALP (kinda like those Di-tech TV commercials).

I wish the news was more encouraging, but if the sole reason to request an "upgrade" is "because I feel restricted", those chiefs are likely to say "good, that is exactly what I'm trying to do" and the legislature and court system agree with him!
 
Basically, the only way to change it is:

1) Get a new CofP who's views are more 2A friendly.

2) Vote the ba$tards out who gave PC's the discretionary powers, put some common sense folks in and change the stupid laws.

Course...hell will probably freeze over for real before that happens - at least with #2.
 
Folks, thank you for the answers.
Len, "feel restricted" is not my main reason to request an upgrade, but as of today I can't really proof an absolute "need" to carry.

In the future I should have the proof of the "need". The question is, how do I go about an upgrade to ALP if my LTC is not due for the renewal yet?
 
I don't have absolute proof of a need to carry myself nor the funds for a lawyer. I just hope I don't get hassled when I renew. As I said, my permit expires in October 2006 - what month should I send in the paperwork to be safe?
 
Laura said:
I don't have absolute proof of a need to carry myself nor the funds for a lawyer. I just hope I don't get hassled when I renew. As I said, my permit expires in October 2006 - what month should I send in the paperwork to be safe?
Click to expand...

Get everything together in June, make an appointment (if required, otherwise just bop in there) for early July.
 
JackO said:
Folks, thank you for the answers.
Len, "feel restricted" is not my main reason to request an upgrade, but as of today I can't really proof an absolute "need" to carry.

In the future I should have the proof of the "need". The question is, how do I go about an upgrade to ALP if my LTC is not due for the renewal yet?
Click to expand...

Jack,

Don't get me wrong . . . I'm just reporting the way the system operates. I don't like it one bit.

I'm with Chief Ron Glidden with this one . . . like a standard "light switch" it should be either on (LTC-A/ALP) or off (denied outright). NO mickey-mouse restrictions and you only deny when there is justifiable reason ONLY attributable to the individual applicant.
 
Len, this probably goes back way before I got my ALP/LTC in 1975, but how did the Police Chiefs get this authority in the first place? Seems to me that if it's a State license, then the issuing authority should be the State and not the local LEO. The Chief doesn't issue my drivers license,why should he issue my LTC. :?

Has this ever been challenged by GOAL or is it something we have to live with?
 
wherewolf said:
Has this ever been challenged by GOAL or is it something we have to live with?
Click to expand...

Yes, and yes. Whatever we've been able to gain in lessening of the laws with regards to LAWful owners, it's been nano-inch by nano-inch. The only thing you can do right now is write to your state Rep and state Sen. Tell them you're not an "unsuitable" person, and that you're being stopped from exercising your basic human right of self defense. Will it do any good? Probably not, but at least if the lawmakers keep getting complaints like this, it may help GOAL to once again pursue getting this changed.

However, if some situation occurs where you feel your life, or a loved ones life is in danger, then call the chief and ask about getting it upgraded.

FWIW...
 
WW,

The discretionary thing by local chiefs goes back way before my time (1976 - 1st LTC).

Every year that the Public Safety Committee takes testimony, the MA Chiefs of Police Assn pleads that they know their subjects best and MUST be allowed to continue to use their discretion in issuing/refusing LTCs!

Every politician is scared to death of MCOPA and want their support for reelection. Therefore never expect to see this changed.

I can tell you that at least in small towns there is more than a little truth to the above. The chief and officers know an astonishing amount of "non public" (never prosecuted) information on their subjects behavior. Many chiefs really do not abuse this power, but some certain do and gloat about it.

Let me paint you an example from real life!

When I worked at DEC, I had a co-worker that was a real Neanderthal! He clearly believed that if he took a lady out on a date and spent his money for her dinner, that she owed him sex! [He actually told me this.]

He came to me one day and asked me to be a reference for him to get his LTC in the MetroWest town he lived in (because he knew that I was a PT LEO and felt that it would add credibility to his application). He then proceeded to explain WHY he wanted it! He wanted a gun to "defend himself" because some of his "dates" were armed (he described a garter holster) and drew on him when he essentially tried to sexually assault them ("taking" what he thought he was entitled to in trade for dinner! [roll] ) when he refused to listen to "NO!". [Now this was back in the 1980s and many PDs really didn't want to get involved in "domestic issues", so jerks like him were NOT prosecuted in most cases.]

I refused to be a reference for him . . . I didn't waste my time trying to suggest "behavior modification" to him, he truly was a waste of oxygen. I was secretly rooting for one of these ladies to ventilate him!

He had NO RECORD of any sort! Should he be issued a LTC?

If I were his chief, there is no way in hell that I would issue him a LTC!

There really are people like that out there that local PDs know to be trouble even though they have never been convicted of anything.

This is a tough one for someone like myself who has sat on both sides of this issue. When you work as a PO (even PT), it is amazing what you learn about some folks in your community . . . some of whom even appear as "pillars of the community" to the vast majority of folks in the town.
 
Len,

You raise a very interesting point. I can only say that today he would have been reported by some of his dates and the authorities would investigate, but that is neither here nor there.

No system is perfect and when we look at the general success of the "shall issue" states that really seems to be the better system.

Although I frequently say that the police aren't our friends, I would also have to say, and this based on my own professional dealing with the organization that MACOPA is certainly no friend of the police or the criminal justice community or the general public for that matter. The guy who runs it is a real piece of work.

Some of the local chiefs are real pieces of work too. They have maybe three people in their department, or they ARE the department and one would think that they see themselves on the same level as Commissioner O'Toole in Boston in terms of scope of responsibility.

Now some of the chiefs are very dedicated and professional individuals and it would be unfair to paint all of them with the same broad brush. Having said that, there are enough rotten apples out there to taint if not spoil the barrel.

I have also noticed, and this is purely anecdotal, that the smaller the department, the more elaborate the Chief's rank insignia. If all the small town chiefs got together in uniform, I'll bet that there would be more stars worn there than at the Pentagon in DC :)

Oh well, it isn't even 0500hrs and I have already had my first rant for the day.

Mark
 
The problem isn't, and never has been, chiefs who exercise their descretion in issuing licenses; it's those who exercise their prejudices. There proabably aren't more than a couple dozen people who have been denied an LTC A - ALP as a result of descretion. Compare that to the thousands who are routinely denied for no reason other than the chief doesn't like guns in the hands of commoners.

Ken
 
LenS said:
He came to me one day and asked me to be a reference for him to get his LTC in the MetroWest town he lived in (because he knew that I was a PT LEO and felt that it would add credibility to his application). He then proceeded to explain WHY he wanted it! He wanted a gun to "defend himself" because some of his "dates" were armed (he described a garter holster) and drew on him when he essentially tried to sexually assault them ("taking" what he thought he was entitled to in trade for dinner! [roll] ) when he refused to listen to "NO!".

I refused to be a reference for him . . .
Click to expand...

I'd have been a reference for him... and told the COP exactly what you just related. [twisted]
 
dwarven1 said:
LenS said:
He came to me one day and asked me to be a reference for him to get his LTC in the MetroWest town he lived in (because he knew that I was a PT LEO and felt that it would add credibility to his application). He then proceeded to explain WHY he wanted it! He wanted a gun to "defend himself" because some of his "dates" were armed (he described a garter holster) and drew on him when he essentially tried to sexually assault them ("taking" what he thought he was entitled to in trade for dinner! [roll] ) when he refused to listen to "NO!".

I refused to be a reference for him . . .
Click to expand...

I'd have been a reference for him... and told the COP exactly what you just related. [twisted]
Click to expand...

Ross, I have a secret for you . . .

They NEVER check those references that you put down! [wink]
 
wherewolf said:
On my next renewal, I'm gonna list the Chief as a reference, being that he knows me better than the State does. [roll] [lol]
Click to expand...

For the last 2 chiefs that I've had, I have ALWAYS put down his current/retired officers as references . . . and I have always intentionally picked those officers who I know the chief doesn't like! [lol]

NOTE: I worked with these guys for years and they all know me very well, so they were all very valid references if they were ever asked about me.

He, he, maybe next time I'll put the chief's bosses down as references! [twisted] [lol]
 
LenS said:
Ross, I have a secret for you . . .

They NEVER check those references that you put down! [wink]
Click to expand...

Len, hope you're sitting down. When I applied for my LTC -my references were called. The Lt. in Somerville asked them what sort of person I was and if they knew why I would want a gun (nice, right?).
So some of them do...
 
Even here in NH refrences do get checked. My last renewal was not, but the cheif knows me. However on my first application, many years ago, all three refrences were sent a questionaire type letter.
 
SR, that is EXTREMELY RARE!!

References for anything are really a joke:

- You won't use people as a reference unless you are convinced that they will say good things about you,

- People are paranoid about lawsuits so that even an employer prohibits all employees from saying anything except "yes s/he worked here dates x to y, and title was z" . . . even if they were fired for cause!

- If someone wants "valid references", talk with their neighbors and landlords. This is likely to cause problems if they aren't pro-gun, but I'm talking strictly about "validity of info" that you get from asking what type of person Joe/Sally Smith is!
 
LenS said:
SR, that is EXTREMELY RARE!!

References for anything are really a joke:

- You won't use people as a reference unless you are convinced that they will say good things about you,

- People are paranoid about lawsuits so that even an employer prohibits ...

- If someone wants "valid references", talk with their neighbors and landlords. ..
Click to expand...


Wrong on the first one. The second one is pretty correct, though some people have no clue. The third I have no idea, but it sure sounds like wild speculation if anything. The last one is a good idea.
 

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