Friends and family on SSRI's.

[drgrant]

I don't know why we as a society think it's needed or ok to medicate the majority of people who have problems. perhaps they have problems because our society is garbage, people don't exercise, their jobs suck and are unrewarding, poor diet, stuck indoors all day, etc.

We're getting it all wrong. The majority of people who are "mentally ill" are sick because most stuff about our day to day lives goes directly against how our bodies evolved to flourish on this planet.

Instead drug them off their ass, make money and shut the f*** up.

Now our doctors are supporting cutting prepubescents kids testicles off, removing childrens breasts and ovaries, etc. f*** these people.

It's because it's literally the cheap way out. Its cheaper to throw pills at people than pay for them to see a life/fitness/nutrition coach and a couple of therapists. And because americans are skinflints they wont pay for it themselves, although in NPC person defense they dont think about these things.

I also think that current societal processes have a tendency to work against self healing and developing coping skills etc. For example the american family, on average, is a dysfunctional shit show compared to what it used to be. More families are broken. And more people are isolated than ever before. Like you know when you hear some guy talking about how his family bifurcated at thanksgiving over COVID bullshit policy, you know theres a serious f***ing problem.

I dont think the faggot 24 hour news cycle, social media, and endless MSM bullshit help either. Like basically our whole society is drowning in that shit. If they werent we wouldnt have people running around with masks and 4 covid shots. I dont really f***ing get it. People turn on a f***ing noisebox and just keep swallowing the MSM jizz that comes out of the
speakers, I am confused and trying to find the value in constantly watching fear porn. (or maybe some of them scroll endlessly through news stuff while taking a shit) but
seriously? IMHO this causes people to become detached from their own world and they suffer as a result.

I will concede I know a lot of meaningless crap that I happened to find personally interesting, etc. But this MSM bullshit it like, if you watch even 2 minutes of it you become dumber
just by being exposed to it.

It was funny because years ago the moral authoritarian shitheads in this country used to rail on and on "about the dangers of pornography. " IMHO they were right but they were wrong in the sense that they were targeting the wrong kind of pornography. Fear porn in this country is f***ing absurd. If we ever wanted to heal people really need to start by turning off their f***ing television set, phone, whatever.

 

[M1911]

“He has a good understanding of a lot of the "bad" going on in the world (thanks to the Internet, and growing up with instant access to news and events), and seems to take a lot of weight on his shoulders for things that are out of his control.”

This is a perfect example of the kind of thinking that can lead to depression. Focusing on the past (woulda shoulda coulda), focusing on the future, focusing on things outside of your control, instead of focusing on the present.

SSRIs can help some people. They are more likely to help if folks are also in therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy might help.

There are a lot if SSRIs and you might have to try several before you find one that works.

Suicide is not at all a common side effect. It is my understanding that most of the people who have committed suicide while on SSRIs were profoundly ill, so that may not be causation but rather just a correlation — a certain percentage of people that profoundly ill will commit suicide, whether they are on SSRIs or not.

I’m not an MD nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[M1911]

The best answer to the mainstream media circus is to turn that crap off. I used to watch the news in the AM after I got up and was doing some morning stretching. I stopped years ago because I realized it was bad for my mental health. “If it bleeds it leads” is not a new phenomenon, but the outrage culture thing is relatively new. It’s just not healthy.

 

[Reptile]

PETER HITCHENS: As a major study overturns decades of received wisdom that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin in the brain, the verdict of science is now clear - our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end​

In a society which claims to be based on science, and which often comes close to the actual worship of scientists, we actually only listen to scientists if we want to. Sometimes we pay close attention.

I well remember back in the mid-1980s the sudden, violent reversal of advice on avoiding cot death. Before then, though it is very hard to find anyone who will admit to this now, we were told sternly that we should lie our babies on their fronts to keep them safe. By the end of the decade, the advice was the exact opposite.

The treatment of stomach ulcers, for decades wrongly blamed on stress, was also revolutionised in the 1980s, when it was recognised they resulted from infection and could be treated with antibiotics.

Likewise, most doctors would now be horrified if they were asked to prescribe barbiturates, which were at one stage handed out in their millions as sleeping pills. What might we be prescribing now, which will one day horrify us?

Well. Our media and the medical profession simply don’t know what to do about yesterday’s emphatic news that supposed ‘antidepressant’ pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

Continues...

PETER HITCHENS: Our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end

PETER HITCHENS: Our media and the medical profession simply don't know what to do about yesterday's emphatic news that 'antidepressant' pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[jkelly1229]

PETER HITCHENS: As a major study overturns decades of received wisdom that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin in the brain, the verdict of science is now clear - our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end​

In a society which claims to be based on science, and which often comes close to the actual worship of scientists, we actually only listen to scientists if we want to. Sometimes we pay close attention.

I well remember back in the mid-1980s the sudden, violent reversal of advice on avoiding cot death. Before then, though it is very hard to find anyone who will admit to this now, we were told sternly that we should lie our babies on their fronts to keep them safe. By the end of the decade, the advice was the exact opposite.

The treatment of stomach ulcers, for decades wrongly blamed on stress, was also revolutionised in the 1980s, when it was recognised they resulted from infection and could be treated with antibiotics.

Likewise, most doctors would now be horrified if they were asked to prescribe barbiturates, which were at one stage handed out in their millions as sleeping pills. What might we be prescribing now, which will one day horrify us?

Well. Our media and the medical profession simply don’t know what to do about yesterday’s emphatic news that supposed ‘antidepressant’ pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

Continues...

PETER HITCHENS: Our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end

PETER HITCHENS: Our media and the medical profession simply don't know what to do about yesterday's emphatic news that 'antidepressant' pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Can we go back to qualudes? Things seemed so much more fun then

 

[M1911]

Here is the word that I was looking for: rumination. His thought pattern sounds like rumination, which is a distinctive symptom of depression.

 

[M1911]

The best answer to the mainstream media circus is to turn that crap off. I used to watch the news in the AM after I got up and was doing some morning stretching. I stopped years ago because I realized it was bad for my mental health. “If it bleeds it leads” is not a new phenomenon, but the outrage culture thing is relatively new. It’s just not healthy.

To expand on this, I first started avoiding news coverage after 9/11. A colleague of mine died on American flight 11. After watching a lot of the coverage, I came to the decision that I never again wanted to watch a video of the towers collapsing. So when I was watching the news, if they put that clip on I just changed the channel. In the couple years after 9/11, they played that clip of the towers collapsing for all sorts of stories and I just don’t want to see it again. After a while, I expanded my filtering to not watch the tv news at all.

I was still subscribing to the Boston Globe online until a couple years back when one of their op-Ed columnists basically said all white people are racist. At that point I had enough and called them up to cancel — you can’t cancel your online subscription online, you actually have to call them up. I assume that is so they can try to talk you out of it. The guy I spoke with didn’t even get to go down that line of questions because I was so spitting mad. I’m not going pay someone to call me a racist.

Long story short: think long and hard about the news you are consuming and how it is effecting your mental health.

 

[jrpascucci]

I’m not a doctor, but, the evidence of how bad ssri’s are is pretty damning. Watch some of Jordan Peterson’s dealings with long term use for depression and it’s frightening what they did to him. I think there is a very small percentage of people who truly should be on these drugs, but, a pill a day makes everything ok!

Peterson was generally pro-SSRI (I don't know if that has changed, but I hadn't noticed it had).

Peterson's big problem came in not with SSRIs but from benzodiazapine.

 

[Medicine Man]

Can we go back to qualudes? Things seemed so much more fun then

Mushrooms?

 

[crazymjb]

I would try non-medication solutions first, but some people just aren’t good chemically. I have close friends and family whom most likely had their lives saved by SSRIs. I wouldn’t say I’ve always been the worlds happiest person, but in some ways I just can’t sympathize. It was explained to me by one person as waking up 100% certain that everyone would be better off with them gone, including their kids. Inconceivable to those who don’t suffer that type of depression.

 

[M1911]

Peterson was generally pro-SSRI (I don't know if that has changed, but I hadn't noticed it had).

Peterson's big problem came in not with SSRIs but from benzodiazapine.

Yeah, exactly. His problems weren’t from SSRIs, but from benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines are an entirely different class of drugs — they are depressants used to reduce anxiety. Benzodiazepines can be addictive and have withdrawal symptoms. Personally, I would be far, far more reluctant to take benzodiazepines than an SSRI. YMMV.

 

[M1911]

Mushrooms?

Actually, there has recently been some research into the use of psychedelics as treatment for depression. I’ve seen some advertising for research subjects on a study of ketamine.

Personally, I noticed a huge mood change for a couple days after having surgery that involved full anesthesia. So I think there may be something there.

 

[Dench]

Peterson was generally pro-SSRI (I don't know if that has changed, but I hadn't noticed it had).

Peterson's big problem came in not with SSRIs but from benzodiazapine.

He, his wife and his daughter have a lot, and I mean a LOT of serious health issues. From mental to physical. Usually I would call BS on someone who made the claims that he did about his reaction to that medication family, but I do trust the man and I'll take his word for it.

However, post COVID-19 Peterson came back as if someone was dragging him up a hill on his back. He had a very, very rough mental and physical recovery from that illnes. And even when he was finally out and about, he still looked obviously physically ill and was in his own words clouded and confused. Then a few months after that he looked good, however, instead of acting clouded he was acting weird in the literal sense. The most recent Rogan podcast is the example im thinking about. He was more or less rambling for hours about niche things. Most of it was worth hearing, but in my opinion something was going on. Rogan also seemed to be onto it, as they have had a lot of previous podcasts. Rogan asked if Peterson was on medication (for mental health). Peterson said yes. And then refused to answer what it was. That struck me as extremely odd as normally Peterson is wide open and not afraid of scrutiny. But, since he was a hot mess, I suspect he might of been onto that. If I had to guess maybe aderall? Big whoop in my eyes, but no doubt his haters would say hes "methed out" or some bullshit and he probably didnt want to deal with it. We may never know.

That said, I have been watching a ton of his recent stuff and I'd say the pre COVID Peterson is back, which is awesome. We need him.

Actually, there has recently been some research into the use of psychedelics as treatment for depression. I’ve seen some advertising for research subjects on a study of ketamine.

The ketamine thing is already going, theres local clinics in MA and also in FL. Problem is its not covered by insurance and is very expensive. Thousands and thousands of dollars. Not very accessible. How they came to realize it has major mid term anti depressant properties is also a really interesting story. It's been a secret out in the open in the medical field for decades.

 

[Dench]

ok anywho I probably should mention the ketamine thing.

Ketamines magic is that it doesnt mess with breathing. Most anesthetics do. So, when a patient hits the ER with a major injury, say a chest injury with compromised breathing, giving them a dose of the normal stuff will further suppress breathing, which would/could kill the patient. That's ketamines reason for being a thing. A way to put people under without compromising breathing.

anesthesiologists noticed over the years that patients they treated with K who also happaned to have depression would often times report one way or another post incident that the depression went *poof*. Long story short, it was such a thing that apparently just about everyone who was close to people who used ketamine officially knew about it or heard about it. The problem with ketamine is its generic. So theres little money to be made. Which is why the FDA has zero pressure to officially bless its obvious off label use. Which is why insurance doesnt have to pay for it, it's not officially considered a normal depression treatment.

always a scam with these people.

 

[M1911]

I wouldn’t call it a scam. Clinical trials are exceedingly expensive. To get through phase 3 trials costs hundreds of millions of dollars, and since ketamine is a generic, there is no way to recoup that money.

Here is an interesting article on its use, explaining some of the issues. Considerations on the Off-label Use of Ketamine as a Treatment for Mood Disorders

 

[jhblaze1]

SSRIs are like antibiotics. Useful meds in the right circumstances, but way overprescribed.

My brother has severe OCD, major depression, and an anxiety disorder. SSRIs help. Talk therapy doesn't, at all.

It's a problem with pubescent teens with normal pubescent teen problems and bouts of the pubescent teenie blues are put on these drugs while their brains are still developing. f***s them all up.

@Dench, 100% right on Ketamine. I've seen adds for clinics offering K treatments. It looks very promising but it's not a money maker for Big Pharma so it's probably not going to go mainstream. Most people could afford K treatment if they prioritized their mental health. That's another facet of the problem. People will wallow in depressed misery, but go spend their money on iPhones and monthly streaming subscriptions and sneakers instead of a treatment program.

MDMA/LSD/Psilocybin also showing incredibly promising results in PTSD, depression, anxiety, migraine and cluster headache care. But super easy and cheap to mass produce so will never get FDA green light for widespread use. Gotta float big pharma.

 

[namedpipes]

PETER HITCHENS: As a major study overturns decades of received wisdom that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin in the brain, the verdict of science is now clear - our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end​

In a society which claims to be based on science, and which often comes close to the actual worship of scientists, we actually only listen to scientists if we want to. Sometimes we pay close attention.

I well remember back in the mid-1980s the sudden, violent reversal of advice on avoiding cot death. Before then, though it is very hard to find anyone who will admit to this now, we were told sternly that we should lie our babies on their fronts to keep them safe. By the end of the decade, the advice was the exact opposite.

The treatment of stomach ulcers, for decades wrongly blamed on stress, was also revolutionised in the 1980s, when it was recognised they resulted from infection and could be treated with antibiotics.

Likewise, most doctors would now be horrified if they were asked to prescribe barbiturates, which were at one stage handed out in their millions as sleeping pills. What might we be prescribing now, which will one day horrify us?

Well. Our media and the medical profession simply don’t know what to do about yesterday’s emphatic news that supposed ‘antidepressant’ pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

Continues...

PETER HITCHENS: Our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end

PETER HITCHENS: Our media and the medical profession simply don't know what to do about yesterday's emphatic news that 'antidepressant' pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

www.dailymail.co.uk

My takeaway from this is that increasing serotonin is beneficial. And according to this article, sex is one of the best ways to increase that:

How a healthy sex life can help minimize depression and anxiety symptoms

When you struggle with anxiety or depression, sex may be the last thing on your mind. But understanding the physiological and mental benefits of a healthy sex life can help it become a tool for well-being.

bigthink.com

...
Sex also increases epinephrine, oxytocin, dopamine and serotonin, all of which are linked to mood, behavior, and well-being.
...
During this initial arousal stage, a few physical things happen, as well: our blood pressure and blood flow increases, sensitive areas of our body (such as the genitals and breasts) become tender and our hearts beat faster. In general, arousal acts like an “on” switch for our bodies to prepare us for intercourse.
...
We also have to talk about the epinephrine chemical that is released during sexual intercourse. Epinephrine is an adrenaline hormone. This hormone activates our sympathetic nervous system, which makes you feel that “heart pounding in your chest” kind of exhilaration you feel when you’re out for a jog, getting a new tattoo or (you guessed it) having sex.
...

The bottom line of the article is: Sex improves your general wellbeing and helps relieve depression.

Therefore, it will be part of my presidential platform to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to have sex frequently so long as I am in office.

I will stimulate this economy or die with a smile on my face, trying.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

When I was a kid I was one of the unfortunate to be placed on Ritalin. As I got older things changed and I went with nothing for a while than back on then off then on. I then settled in with Adderall and was on and off that for years. Finally in my mid 30s I decided I was going to kick the habit once and for all. Not an easy task and I had several aborted attempts as quitting.

I finally got hooked up with a decent Dr who was dedicated to helping me quit. First thing I did was start keeping track of the food I ate etc. Long story short, many of the common additives in pre-processed food mess me up. Dyes, preservative and junk like that. I quit drinking soda completely and I stopped eating almost all pre-processed food. I started going to the gym and working out a few times a week. Lots of hard work but I've been off that crap for 20 years.

The reality is you need to work at it to get off those kinds of drugs. You need to look at diet, exercise and your mental health (get out of shitty situations that cause stress .. like crappy jobs). Not saying it works for everyone but you need to want to get off the drugs or not go on them.

 

[Dench]

SSRIs are like antibiotics. Useful meds in the right circumstances, but way overprescribed.

My brother has severe OCD, major depression, and an anxiety disorder. SSRIs help. Talk therapy doesn't, at all.

It's a problem with pubescent teens with normal pubescent teen problems and bouts of the pubescent teenie blues are put on these drugs while their brains are still developing. f***s them all up.

@Dench, 100% right on Ketamine. I've seen adds for clinics offering K treatments. It looks very promising but it's not a money maker for Big Pharma so it's probably not going to go mainstream. Most people could afford K treatment if they prioritized their mental health. That's another facet of the problem. People will wallow in depressed misery, but go spend their money on iPhones and monthly streaming subscriptions and sneakers instead of a treatment program.

MDMA/LSD/Psilocybin also showing incredibly promising results in PTSD, depression, anxiety, migraine and cluster headache care. But super easy and cheap to mass produce so will never get FDA green light for widespread use. Gotta float big pharma.

last time I looked ketamine treatment was ~$5,000-$6,500 for a series. I think that's about 6ish months worth?

That's a shit load of money to have a generic drug administered via an IV.

 

[jhblaze1]

last time I looked ketamine treatment was ~$5,000-$6,500 for a series. I think that's about 6ish months worth?

That's a shit load of money to have a generic drug administered via an IV.

Mindbloom: ketamine therapy for anxiety and depression

Mindbloom helps you heal and grow through legal, safe, and clinician-guided ketamine therapy for depression and anxiety. See if you're a candidate today.

www.mindbloom.com

$89 a week for new patients, $55 once established. Not super cheap, but doable for most people, especially if you only really need like a month of treatment.

 

[Dench]

I wouldn’t call it a scam. Clinical trials are exceedingly expensive. To get through phase 3 trials costs hundreds of millions of dollars, and since ketamine is a generic, there is no way to recoup that money.

Here is an interesting article on its use, explaining some of the issues. Considerations on the Off-label Use of Ketamine as a Treatment for Mood Disorders

After project warp speed that ship has sailed for me. If Ketamine was a new drug, I think you'd be right. We should put it under a LOT of scrutiny. But it's anything but new. Ketamine is entering into fossil levels of old in the medical community. It's no new comer.

As you point out, the money is a key factor. And as the last 2 years showed us, the amount of directors/CEOs/bigwigs who bounce back and forth between the FDA and pfizer and friends is quite disturbing. The conflict of interest is massive. K doesn't have any of this. As a result, the same old people who always lose, the same people they send off to war to die for nothing, the same ones they give .05% interest rates to... they get F'd. and the people at the top... well, they are doing better than ever.

At the end of the day the #1 priority is to make money. I'm not sure where actual public health comes in, but it's somewhere near the bottom.

 

[Dench]

Mindbloom: ketamine therapy for anxiety and depression

Mindbloom helps you heal and grow through legal, safe, and clinician-guided ketamine therapy for depression and anxiety. See if you're a candidate today.

www.mindbloom.com

$89 a week for new patients, $55 once established. Not super cheap, but doable for most people, especially if you only really need like a month of treatment.

Wow, so a at home version???? Amazing never would of thought

 

[Mountain]

@StevieP , there will be many on the forum with a strong bias either way but probably the strongest bias is going to be anti-med. Including what I share, I'd weigh the input from the doctor at about 98% if not 99.9% vs. what you see here. This assumes of course your son has a decent doc.

Young males 16-24 have one of if not the highest % of new and serious mental health symptoms. Meds may not only help currently moderate symptoms, but may prevent something more serious from developing. If severe psychosis develops, it (or what causes it) can cause permanent damage. It's very important that someone with mental health issues gets professional care, regardless if folks say meds are overprescribed, just needs a dose of toughing it out, or some other complete BS. Yes, many meds are overprescribed. There's also a lot of ice at the North Pole. Neither fact should affect seeking care for your son. He's in the age group that often shows their first symptoms.

Sounds like your ex may have at least a minor issue with depression or something? Mental health problems are often genetically linked, so that's another flag. Also just because one family member can manage it doesn't mean another doesn't need medical attention and/or meds for similar problems.

 

[HuntMaine]

IMHO SSRIs do more damage then help. They are handed out like candy by so called mental health doctors because it’s easier to drug the hell out of someone than having them actually deal with life issues

 

[Coyote33]

Watch some of Jordan Peterson’s dealings with long term use

PETER HITCHENS: As a major study overturns decades of received wisdom that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin in the brain, the verdict of science is now clear - our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end...​

OK, who is Jordan Peterson and Peter Hitchens? You guys just throw out names like everybody knows them. I just want the short version. Are they credible sources? Are they doctors?

 

[Coyote33]

benzodiazapine

Are these what are referred to as "bennies"?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apFWBKSG11s



What are "reds"?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE

 

[weekendracer]

I think in general SSRIs are f***ing terrifying but I think in some specific circumstances they might help someone that has no other choice.

Even amongst any kinds of psych drugs they should just be considered a drug of last resort though. Too many weird side effects. Too much weird shit from long term use,
etc.

I'm in this group. Being around school aged kids, being told by teachers that certain kids are uncontrollable. I found that most of them needed someone to just put their foot down and demand they act right. I had a kid in 7th grade, big kid for the class, almost as big as I am (5'10 180). His mother finally accepted it was the kid not the teachers and held him accountable. The one thing he had to do was be 'good' for a substitute. Guess who the substitute was for a couple days straight. He walked in, saw me, turned around and went to the office. I caught him in the hallway, told him I knew the deal, that I'd be fair with him if he took the challenge on. He made a conscious decision to tell me no, he couldn't do it, and went to the office. To me, that proves he was purposely acting out, he made that decision on his own. There's a little more to the story, but you get the point.

There were a couple kids, that simply needed 'something' to be able to sit still. When they didn't have their meds, they almost literally vibrated.

 

[weekendracer]

OK, who is Jordan Peterson and Peter Hitchens? You guys just throw out names like everybody knows them. I just want the short version. Are they credible sources? Are they doctors?

Jordan Peterson is generally one of the smartest people in the room. He took on the woke crowd up in Canada and they made him famous by giving him a global stage. Everyone has tried to take him down, but he keeps to his logic, doesn't fall for the emotion, and they hate him for it. He's a psychology professor at a big college up in Canada, or at least he was.

He has said some things I don't agree with, things I think are dumb, but you can generally see where he is coming from even if you don't agree with him. He's very good at articulating his argument and doesn't let people put words in his mouth.

 

[M1911]

Are these what are referred to as "bennies"?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apFWBKSG11s



What are "reds"?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE

No bennies or Benzedrine is an amphetamine — speed or an upper. Amphetamines increase anxiety.

Benzodiazepines do the reverse.

 

[jhblaze1]

PETER HITCHENS: As a major study overturns decades of received wisdom that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin in the brain, the verdict of science is now clear - our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end​

In a society which claims to be based on science, and which often comes close to the actual worship of scientists, we actually only listen to scientists if we want to. Sometimes we pay close attention.

I well remember back in the mid-1980s the sudden, violent reversal of advice on avoiding cot death. Before then, though it is very hard to find anyone who will admit to this now, we were told sternly that we should lie our babies on their fronts to keep them safe. By the end of the decade, the advice was the exact opposite.

The treatment of stomach ulcers, for decades wrongly blamed on stress, was also revolutionised in the 1980s, when it was recognised they resulted from infection and could be treated with antibiotics.

Likewise, most doctors would now be horrified if they were asked to prescribe barbiturates, which were at one stage handed out in their millions as sleeping pills. What might we be prescribing now, which will one day horrify us?

Well. Our media and the medical profession simply don’t know what to do about yesterday’s emphatic news that supposed ‘antidepressant’ pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

Continues...

PETER HITCHENS: Our unhealthy obsession with antidepressants must end

PETER HITCHENS: Our media and the medical profession simply don't know what to do about yesterday's emphatic news that 'antidepressant' pills do not in fact do what it says on the packet.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I'm always a bit skeptical when hyperbolic articles like the don't even link the actual study they're "summarizing". Journalist rarely interpret medical studies correctly.

there is not even one sentence of actual scientific content in that article. I'll have to go hunt down the study.