Flying with Firearms - Rerouted to NYC

[Rob Boudrie]

FOPA requires "continuous and uninterrupted". If you flight stops and you have to overnight, the trip is no longer covered by FOPA. Unlike the RI law allowing people with out of state permits to drive through RI with a gun, the word "intent" appears nowhere in FOPA 86.

 

[Palladin]

I'm guessing you already know but I've read that New Jersey has ignored FOPA laws and arrested people passing through. Might be worth a little research if you're thinking of driving from NYC to PA. Sorry to hear that you're in this predicament.

FOPA Doesn't Apply in NY/NJ!

Court Rules Against Traveling Gun Owner

 

[amm5061]

FOPA requires "continuous and uninterrupted". If you flight stops and you have to overnight, the trip is no longer covered by FOPA. Unlike the RI law allowing people with out of state permits to drive through RI with a gun, the word "intent" appears nowhere in FOPA 86.

That really needs to be fixed. There's nothing unreasonable about covering people who have their travel plans unintentionally interrupted like this. But, "gunz and think of the children!"

 

[dcmdon]

I'm guessing you already know but I've read that New Jersey has ignored FOPA laws and arrested people passing through. Might be worth a little research if you're thinking of driving from NYC to PA. Sorry to hear that you're in this predicament.

FOPA Doesn't Apply in NY/NJ!

The above advice is wrong. This is only a problem at airports.
I know of nobody who has ever been arrested while transporting in a car, in compliance with the safe passage portion of FOPA.

Last year, I offered $100 to anyone who could find one SINGLE INSTANCE of a driver arrested and prosecuted while transporting in line with FOPA. I still have that $100.

Bottom line, the advice above is wrong. Only Port Authority airports (JFK, LGA, EWR) are ignoring FOPA and arresting people when they try to check guns.

Re flying. Tell the airline that they need to sit on the bag until it gets to PA. Tell them that it is illegal for you to take possession of the bag/firearm in NY.

If you choose to pick it up, realistically, you won't have any trouble. However, you will be arrested later when you try to check it in NY to get on your next flight.

 

[drgrant]

I fail to believe that a day goes by without somebody traversing NY with a firearm according to FOPA (probably even missing some of the high points).

We're aware of a dozen cases where somebody was pinched and there are probably many more that they caught. But if they were catching even a fraction of those that Oasis through, believe me we'd be hearing about it.

Likewise, the salmon in Alaska. Bears and fishermen catch a LOT of salmon but somehow enough get through to make sure there are plenty next year.

BE the salmon that gets through.

But don't flipper off the cop if you get stopped for speeding.

Transiting NY or NJ by car generally isn't a problem WRT FOPA as long as someone isn't a retard about it. Don't "get cute" about your route planning and it won't be a
problem.

The problem is with Port Authority airports (EG, Newark, JFK, LaGuardia, etc) and boarding and trying to check guns, that's how people go to jail...

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

The above advice is wrong. This is only a problem at airports.
I know of nobody who has ever been arrested while transporting in a car, in compliance with the safe passage portion of FOPA.

Last year, I offered $100 to anyone who could find one SINGLE INSTANCE of a driver arrested and prosecuted while transporting in line with FOPA. I still have that $100..

Mind you, it was like 2006 when he posted that, and really only the headline is slightly misleading. When you read into it he's mostly talking about airports. But yes, the same phantasm exists with MA, too. I'm still waiting for the arrest story of the "guy who got arrested for having a gun in MA while rolling with locked up guns per FOPA" and it still hasn't happened yet. Doesn't mean it's impossible, but I think it's pretty difficult/unlikely if one stays within confines of the law. Every MA traffic stop gun arrest I hear of, the victim is usually about 10 miles away from being FOPA compliant. (often involving basically loose guns in the passenger compartment)

A happy fun ball situation though might arise in MA though @ logan WRT the central parking BS (because of the random car searches, that someone posted about here, although an unwashed person using central parking and then flying with guns is pretty much unlikely) but I know at least in the terminal nobody seems to give a shit about people checking guns. It's not like NYC where the call the kopsch over every time someone checks a gun. Same thing with other commie states like CT and RI, people fly in and out of bradley or TF green without issue with guns all the time. It's only NY/NJ that's f***ed up.

-Mike

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Court Rules Against Traveling Gun Owner

The 2A should have protected that person.

 

[Bonesinium]

FOPA requires "continuous and uninterrupted". If you flight stops and you have to overnight, the trip is no longer covered by FOPA.

Really? Where does it say that?

Unlike the RI law allowing people with out of state permits to drive through RI with a gun, the word "intent" appears nowhere in FOPA 86.

You know what else appears nowhere in FOPA 86? The phrase you quoted above. “Countinuous and uninterrupted”.

18 U.S. Code § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms


I know you are trying to be helpful, but you more than anybody state things as fact or law that aren’t. Nowhere in FOPA does it say that and the DOJ has opined as such.

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1509107/don-young-nyc-fopa.pdf

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Really? Where does it say that?




You know what else appears nowhere in FOPA 86? The phrase you quoted above. “Countinuous and uninterrupted”.

18 U.S. Code § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms


I know you are trying to be helpful, but you more than anybody state things as fact or law that aren’t. Nowhere in FOPA does it say that and the DOJ has opined as such.

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1509107/don-young-nyc-fopa.pdf

Thanks for pointing that out.

The law has often been interpreted to mean that a stop for a hotel is the end of one journey, and another starts when you leave the hotel. I had seen the continuous and uninterrupted in many summaries of the law, but did not realize it was not in the law. What appears to be the issue is whether or not you are on a journey when you have stayed the night at an intermediate point.

The DOJ letter states that there must be no interruption in the transportation to the checkin desk

Good observation.

 

[kalash]

Just drive, follow FOPA, and don't speed. We have a place in PA and I've driven through NY with guns many times without issue (knock on wood).

If you're in the hypothetical scenario you outlined, then I'll echo countless others: don't touch that bag in NY - as soon as you try to check it in the following day, you're toast. One option is to claim the bag, rent a car, and drive - I'm not sure this is legal to be honest but at least you're not setting yourself up for inevitable jail time like you would if you tried to check it. Another option is to fly Delta - they won't put your luggage on the carousel if it contains firearms, they keep it in the office for you so it might be easier to get it forwarded to PA.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Another option is to get a fedex box, pack it yourself, address it to your destination or home, and drop it off in a fedex box,

 

[Mark from MA]

Hypothetical question - I’m on flights from the Manchester, NH airport to the Harrisburg, PA airport, a state that honors NH Pistol & Revolver Permits and has no state AWB. Due to unforeseen circumstances, we are rerouted in flight to a NYC airport and I’m booked on a flight the next day. I’ve declared a Tavor X95 rifle (pistol grip, 30rd magazines) and pistol (Glock 17 with 17rd mags) in a hard case, meeting all airline & TSA regulations.

1. Will I be arrested on the airplane after landing or when picking up my luggage? That is, does the airline or TSA alert NYC police?
2. If not, I know I can’t declare and re-check that firearm the next day without arrest and likely prosecution, so do I:
A. Not even claim the case with the firearms, leave NYC by any means possible, ask the airline to return the luggage to MHT
B. Rent a car and drive home with the firearms in the locked trunk
C. Other?

First off Harrisburg is like a 6 hour drive.....Flying is pretty much not worth it. With all the BS at airports, arriving early, usual delays, travelling to the airport, waiting,etc.

One time I flew to a destination in Northern Virginia, the closest airport was Baltimore about 1.5 hours away. On the way home I could have easily hopped right on 81 and been home in 7-8 hours depending on traffic. Instead I drove 1.5 hours to Baltimore, waited another 2 hours for the plane, they kept delaying and delaying, I flew out another 3 hours later, 1 hour on the flight, drove home from Manchester another 1.25 hours. Yes...I could have actually driven home faster than that 1 hour flight took in travel time.

Also, Odds are getting diverted to NYC would be very low unless the airline has some type of hub there. I fly a fair amount and have never been diverted to anywhere, its a very rare occurrence, on a 1 hour flight from MHT to Harrisburg...doubtful. Should it happen, just don't touch the bag, tell them you cannot touch it or claim it until its in PA.

I would pack per FOPA and drive the speed limits in MA, CT, and NY and not worry too much about it.

If you really are that worried about it....ship the things to your destination and back.

 

[minininjer]

One time I flew to a destination in Northern Virginia, the closest airport was Baltimore about 1.5 hours away.

Where was your destination in NoVA? Don't have to answer that but... if Baltimore was your closest airport in NoVA, your flight there must have been before 1962??? And... but why wasn't Reagan an option?

 

[mothybee]

Canada isn't ct

doesn't matter, neither one accepts NH. permit.

 

[allen-1]

I fail to believe that a day goes by without somebody traversing NY with a firearm according to FOPA (probably even missing some of the high points).

We're aware of a dozen cases where somebody was pinched and there are probably many more that they caught. But if they were catching even a fraction of those that Oasis through, believe me we'd be hearing about it.

Likewise, the salmon in Alaska. Bears and fishermen catch a LOT of salmon but somehow enough get through to make sure there are plenty next year.

BE the salmon that gets through.

But don't flipper off the cop if you get stopped for speeding.

Lots of people travel every day illegally with firearms. I li

Really? Where does it say that?




You know what else appears nowhere in FOPA 86? The phrase you quoted above. “Countinuous and uninterrupted”.

18 U.S. Code § 926A - Interstate transportation of firearms


I know you are trying to be helpful, but you more than anybody state things as fact or law that aren’t. Nowhere in FOPA does it say that and the DOJ has opined as such.

https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1509107/don-young-nyc-fopa.pdf

Responding to the "continuous and uninterrupted" or lack thereof in FOPA. Mark's correct, it isn't in FOPA, but here's a tidbit from the New Jersey state police page:

Shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel, shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Source: https://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-firearm.shtml

 

[Bonesinium]

That’s because that’s NJ statutory law, not federal law, which is different. That has absolutely nothing to do with FOPA.

NJ 2c:39-6 g

All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

 

[drgrant]

lol this is an extension cord mess.

and yes flying to PA is kinda dumb, but I'm guessing the OP just picked that as an example.

-Mike

 

[MaverickNH]

I’d prefer to shoot my own rifle and pistol. The delivery carriers (UPS, FEDEX) will ship firearms but you have to pay overnight shipping costs. Still, cheaper than a lawyer...

I’d drive it in a day - with course registration in hand I’d have FOPA proof if something odd happened (accident where I am ambulances and my vehicles contents are inventoried). But may have to lawyer-up to get my gear back or out of jail.

Yeah - shipping is the lowest risk option, even if not lowest cost option.

 

[dcmdon]

Another option is to get a fedex box, pack it yourself, address it to your destination or home, and drop it off in a fedex box,

Or USPS if its a long gun. Just mentioning this because its a much cheaper option than FedEx.

I know Rob knows this, but some of you might not be aware that you can ship a gun to yourself even on your way to your vacation. Ship it to yourself, in care of your hotel at your hotel's address.

Perfectly legal.

From an ATF FAQ document:
6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State?

Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed tothe owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm.

 

[allen-1]

That’s because that’s NJ statutory law, not federal law, which is different. That has absolutely nothing to do with FOPA.

NJ 2c:39-6 g

All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

I didn't say that it was FOPA, in fact I explicitly said that it wasn't FOPA. My statement was: "Responding to the "continuous and uninterrupted" or lack thereof in FOPA. Mark's correct, it isn't in FOPA, but here's a tidbit from the New Jersey state police page:"

However - it surely affects traveling through New Jersey; and that concerns me because I regularly travel twice a year between Georgia and Connecticut transporting multiple firearms. I'm headed back down to Georgia next week. I'm going through as little of NY state as possible, absolutely not going through NYC and going around NJ. Because gunz. The risk is low, the potential headaches are too large.

And 81's a much nicer run than 95.

 

[Reptile]

If you go the shipping route, you can always ship it to Staples or the UPS Store.

Staples doesn't charge anything but UPS Store will charge you $5.

You'll get confirmation of it's arrival.


In light of the responses here from others, I would drive and adhere to FOPA.

Just don't blame me if you get arrested for speeding.

 

[drgrant]

I’d prefer to shoot my own rifle and pistol. The delivery carriers (UPS, FEDEX) will ship firearms but you have to pay overnight shipping costs. Still, cheaper than a lawyer...

I’d drive it in a day - with course registration in hand I’d have FOPA proof if something odd happened (accident where I am ambulances and my vehicles contents are inventoried). But may have to lawyer-up to get my gear back or out of jail.

Yeah - shipping is the lowest risk option, even if not lowest cost option.

As someone whose "driven the transit" several times the hassle/bs/cost of shipping guns greatly will outstrip the ease of just locking your shit up and throwing a blanket over it in the trunk. I also would pick most efficient route too regardless. I prefer meritt parkway/ 15 / nyc etc on the way down and a more leisurely route via matamoras on the way back. A lot of it has to do with time of day, etc.

-Mike

 

[dcmdon]

But Mike,

This is MA. The land where people make up problems where there isn't one and imaginary risk drives decisions.

I couldn't agree more your assessment. I travel interstate with firearms about a dozen times per year. Never had a problem. Don't anticipate I ever will.

Don

 

[free]

lol this is an extension cord mess.

and yes flying to PA is kinda dumb, but I'm guessing the OP just picked that as an example.

-Mike

Lol.

 

[Bonesinium]

However - it surely affects traveling through New Jersey; and that concerns me because I regularly travel twice a year between Georgia and Connecticut transporting multiple firearms.

Nope, it doesn't. It applies to intrastate transportation (and possibly transportation to NJ once you get to NJ) only. As opposed to interstate transportation, in which FOPA applies.

I mean, it's basically the same as FOPA (actually less restrictive), so sure, you could consider it. But the actual applicable law in regards to firearms transportation while traveling from CT to GA is FOPA, not NJ 2C:39.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

If you go the shipping route, you can always ship it to Staples or the UPS Store.

Staples doesn't charge anything but UPS Store will charge you $5.

You'll get confirmation of it's arrival.


In light of the responses here from others, I would drive and adhere to FOPA.

Just don't blame me if you get arrested for speeding.

This suggestion can jam someone up. UPS and FedEx have a company policy that requires you to ship firearms from their "hubs". Part of the law that allows you to ship firearms via a common carrier states that you have to notify the shipper of the firearms. If you go to a UPS Store, or an independent FedEx shipper, they are not supposed to accept firearms (company policy). If you don't tell them what is in the package, then technically you are not following Federal law. Will anything bad come of it? Probably not, but if for some reason the package is damaged in transit, and say a firearms case shows, it will probably lead to an investigation. Another example would be if the label came off/was ripped off, and the shipper had to open the package to try and find if there was another listing inside. They are NOT the government, and state that packages could be opened for inspection, and you have no 4A protection (since it's designed to protect you from .gov intrusion). Just my .02. YMMV.

 

[Reptile]

This suggestion can jam someone up. UPS and FedEx have a company policy that requires you to ship firearms from their "hubs". Part of the law that allows you to ship firearms via a common carrier states that you have to notify the shipper of the firearms. If you go to a UPS Store, or an independent FedEx shipper, they are not supposed to accept firearms (company policy). If you don't tell them what is in the package, then technically you are not following Federal law. Will anything bad come of it? Probably not, but if for some reason the package is damaged in transit, and say a firearms case shows, it will probably lead to an investigation. Another example would be if the label came off/was ripped off, and the shipper had to open the package to try and find if there was another listing inside. They are NOT the government, and state that packages could be opened for inspection, and you have no 4A protection (since it's designed to protect you from .gov intrusion). Just my .02. YMMV.

I agree with everything you said. In my prior email, I said it must be shipped from a hub.

I neglected to state that it must be shipped from a hub in the post you quoted. Thank You.

 

[308rifleman]

Another option is to get a fedex box, pack it yourself, address it to your destination or home, and drop it off in a fedex box,

Not a bad idea. You would have to pay baggage fees at the airport anyway so why not give some of your business to Fed Ex. Their rates are reasonable.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm still waiting for the arrest story of the "guy who got arrested for having a gun in MA while rolling with locked up guns per FOPA"

The practice of summoning LE for a legality check when checking a firearm at an airline counter seems unique to the MA/NJ area. I've heard of it happening upstate as well.

I have never heard of this being done at Logan or any other non NY/NJ airport.

 

[Mark from MA]

Where was your destination in NoVA? Don't have to answer that but... if Baltimore was your closest airport in NoVA, your flight there must have been before 1962??? And... but why wasn't Reagan an option?

Winchester area

Flight price on our travel software made me fly to BWI. I prefer to fly out of MHT if I can. In this trip I did. So not a ton of options.

I dont go there that often (like never) so im probably not as savvy about what the best airport would be. But it was only a half hours drive difference