FLEO and CCW/Using FLETC to satisfy basic safety course requirement to obtain Class A

[jsmitho219]

I'm a current 1811 living and working in MA. I haven't had much of a need to obtain a Class A license (no restrictions) for the years I've been a FLEO since I'm permitted to carry either of my agency-issued duty weapons on my badge and creds (on and off-duty), but I've decided I'd like to have the option of carrying a non-agency weapon (concealed) and/or purchase some firearms of my own (not to mention actually have the option of buying my own practice ammo in this state, ha). Having lived in MA for 30+ years, I am quite aware of the hoops required jumping through in order to get a Class A license with no restrictions.

I so happen to live in one of the communities that make you jump through some extra hoops, but I had a question regarding one of the basic requirements. Does the MSP (to get the safety certificate) accept any FLETC training for satisfying the basic safety course requirement? It's not a big deal, but I'd like to save myself the extra time and money if I can. As an 1811, I had to pass the 12-week CITP course, plus all my agency-specific add-ons. We also have to shoot a qualifying course at a MINIMUM of every quarter. Just curious.

Thanks

 

[In God We Trust]

The short answer is no, they won't take your firearms training even though it was through a federal police academy. Just break out the c-note and take the course.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Curious, how does an 1811 differ from a 1911?

 

[Deleted member 12999]

It's a 1911 -100$ for LTC.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

It's a 1911 -100$ for LTC.

Touche'

I couldn't help myself!

 

[terraformer]

Either I am missing some joke or no, its 1811. It's class of federal job. It's a federal le agent designator.

 

[joe1231913]

Some of the guys in my agency got a pass on the safety course, but I guess it depends on the town.

 

[MA_Shooter]

Federal classification & job grading - http://www.opm.gov/fedclass/html/gsseries.asp

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Unless the class is listed on the MA approved course list, or you have the MA hunter safety course, the PD is prohibited by law from issuing.

There is no shortage of departments in MA that misunderstand a few of the more subtle points of MGL as it comes to firearms issues.

 

[jsmitho219]

The short answer is no, they won't take your firearms training even though it was through a federal police academy. Just break out the c-note and take the course.

Yeah, that's what I figured. It's more the sitting in a classroom on a Saturday in the Summer than the c-note that I'm worried about!

I know the safety course certificate is certainly a requirement, but this section in the law gives some hope:

	(5.) Courses Not Listed in 515 CMR 3.05(3) and (4). Additional courses will be approved on an individual basis at the discretion of the Colonel pursuant to 515 CMR 3.05(6)

(And yes, 1811 is a job series classification in the federal system for Criminal Investigators/Special Agents. Sorry, I'm used to having to write that all over the place on work forms.)

 

[terraformer]

Yeah, that's what I figured. It's more the sitting in a classroom on a Saturday in the Summer than the c-note that I'm worried about!

I know the safety course certificate is certainly a requirement, but this section in the law gives some hope:

	(5.) Courses Not Listed in 515 CMR 3.05(3) and (4). Additional courses will be approved on an individual basis at the discretion of the Colonel pursuant to 515 CMR 3.05(6)

(And yes, 1811 is a job series classification in the federal system for Criminal Investigators/Special Agents. Sorry, I'm used to having to write that all over the place on work forms.)

If you get the Colonel of the state police to issue that exemption, I will be floored. I would love to see you try. It would frankly only make sense, but that is why it will likely not work.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If you get the Colonel of the state police to issue that exemption, I will be floored. I would love to see you try. It would frankly only make sense, but that is why it will likely not work.

Consider yourself floored, as I have already done this and have the MSP letter dated January 19, 2001 to prove it. The way the CMR is worded, it's not an "exemption" but certification of a course as acceptable for the licensing requirement.

515 CMR 3.05 lists a number of specific courses (see below). The colonel of the state police has delegated the authority for approving courses to one of his functionaries (It was Major Mullen at the time I dealt with them), and the approval of courses not listed in the original CMR is handled by the regular publishing of a list (http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/msp/forms/firearms/approved_basic_firearms_safety_courses_04-2011.pdf - the course I had approved is LTC-013 on that list), rather than alteration of the enabling statute or the CMR.

The wording is a big ambiguous and doesn't really make it clear if the Colonel may approve a course on a "one time, one course" basis in addition to expanding the list, however, the system has been administered by processing applications for inclusion on the approved course list.

Section
3.01: Purpose
3.02: Scope and Applicability
3.03: Definitions
3.04: Firearms Safety Instructors Certification
3.05: Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Approval Certification
3.06: Firearms Surrender Program
3.07: Severability
3.01: Purpose
The purpose of 515 CMR 3.00 et seq.is to provide rules and regulations governing basic firearms safety instructor and course certifications required by G.L. c. 140, sect 131P and the implementation of a statewide firearms surrender program required by G.L. c. 140, § 131O.
3.02: Scope and Applicability
The Colonel of the Massachusetts Department of State Police adopts 515 CMR 3.00 et seq. under the authority of G.L. c. 140, § § 131O and 131P, to establish rules and regulations as described in those sections. These regulations are not applicable to DLE firearms safety courses exempted under G.L. c. 140, § 131P.
3.03: Definitions
BFS.Basic Firearms Safety.
BFS Certificate.Basic Firearms Safety Course Completion Certificate issued pursuant to 515 CMR 3.05(7).
Colonel.The Colonel of the Massachusetts Department of State Police or his designee.
DLE. Division of Law Enforcement within the Department of Fisheries, Wildlife and Environmental Law Enforcement.
FID Card.Firearms Identification Card.
LEAPS.Law Enforcement Agency Processing System/Criminal Justice Information System.
LTC.License to Carry Firearms which shall include both Class A and Class B licenses.
MCJTC.Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council.
NCIC.The federal National Criminal Information Center.
NRA.National Rifle Association
3.04: Firearms Safety Instructors Certification
(1) Requirements: For certification as a firearms safety instructor, a person shall be properly licensed with a FID card or LTC as required by law, and may only offer instructions on those firearms for which he is licensed. In addition BFS instructors shall provide documentation to verify status as at least one of the following:
(a) a firearms instructor of the NRA, or other nationally recognized organization that teaches firearms safety, or a firearms instructor certified by such organization;
(b) a federal, state or municipal law enforcement firearms instructor;
(c) a United States military firearms instructor;
(d) a DLE basic hunter education instructor;
(e) a firearms instructor of the MCJTC, or a firearms instructor certified by the MCJTC;
(f) a firearms instructor of afirearms manufacturer or its academy, or a firearms instructor certified by such academy; or
(g) any other person, in the discretion of the Colonel, competent to give instruction in a BFS course, which may include any person who operates a firearms safety course or program as described in G.L. c. 140, § 131P(b).
(2)Application.: An application for certification as a BFS instructor can be obtained by writing to the Department of State Police, Licensing Unit, 470 Worcester Road, Framingham, MA 01702. Upon filling out the application and submitting the application fee, as set forth in the application, and required documentation, the package can be mailed or delivered to the same address. The Colonel may require additional verifying information as deemed necessary before issuing certification. Certification or non-approval will be mailed to the applicant.
(3) Instructor Certification:Certification as a firearms safety instructor shall be valid for a period of ten years, unless sooner revoked because of unsuitability, in the discretion of the Colonel. Each BFS Instructor's Certificate shall be on a form prescribed by the Colonel and shall be designated a unique number.
(4) Certified Instructor Obligation: Instructors shall forward information regarding students who successfully complete an instructor's BFS course, on a form prescribed by the Colonel to:
The Department of State Police, Firearm Licensing Unit, 470 Worcester Road, Framingham, MA 01702
3.05: Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Approval Certification
(1.)Applicability.
a.) Any person lawfully licensed with a FID card on June 1, 1998 shall not be required to complete the statutorily required BFS course or submit a BFS certificate for:
1.) subsequent FID card renewals; or
2.) subsequent LTC licensure and renewals.
(b) Any person lawfully licensed with a LTC card on June 1, 1998 shall not be required to complete the statutorily required BFS course or submit a BFS certificate for:
1.) subsequent LTC renewals; or
2.) subsequent FID card licensure and renewals.
(c) Any person licensed after June 1, 1998 who completed a BFS course for an initial FID card or LTC shall not be required to complete a subsequent statutorily required BFS course or submit a BFS Certificate for FID card or LTC renewals.
(2.) Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Criteria. Curriculum for a BFS course shall include curriculum criteria as described in G.L. c. 140, § 131P(b).
(a) A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a FID shall use rifles and/or shotguns as the primary subject matter of the curriculum unless the course is an approved LTC BFS course. A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a LTC shall use pistols and/or revolvers as the primary subject matter of the curriculum.
(b) Certain BFS course curriculums do not contain a firearms related law component. Such curriculums can still meet Department of State Police curriculum criteria by utilizing guest speakers familiar with firearms laws or by utilizing or distributing to its students written informational pamphlets/books/videos by an entity/individual familiar with firearms laws to cover that portion of the course.
(3.) FID Card Basic Firearms Safety Courses. The following BFS courses, with fulfillment of 515 CMR 3.05(2)(b) requirements as applicable, meet the Department of State Police's criteria for obtaining a FID card and are approved:
(a) NRA Basic Rifle or Shotgun Courses;
(b) SIG Arms Academy Firearms Orientation and Familiarization Courses for Shotgun, Carbine or Rifle; and
(c) Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts F.I.D. Safety Training Course.
(d) Approved LTC Basic Firearms Safety Course as set forth in 515 CMR 3.05(4) or (5).
(4.) LTC Basic Firearms Safety Courses. The following BFS courses, with fulfillment of 515 CMR 3.05(2)(b) requirements as applicable, meet the Department of State Police's criteria for obtaining a LTC and are approved:
(a)Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association Basic Handgun Safety Course;
(b) NRA Basic Pistol Course, NRA Personal Protection Course or NRA Home Safety Course;
(c) SIG Arms Academy Handgun Orientation Course; and
(d) Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts Carry Permit Course.
(5.) Courses Not Listed in 515 CMR 3.05(3) and (4). Additional courses will be approved on an individual basis at the discretion of the Colonel pursuant to 515 CMR 3.05(6).
(6.) Issuance of Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Approval Certification. For courses not listed in this section, a BFS course curriculum approval application can be obtained by writing to the Department of State Police, Licensing Unit, 470 Worcester Road, Framingham, MA 01702. The application can be mailed or delivered to the same address. A letter approving the course or denying approval because the course does not meet the curriculum requirements will be mailed to the applicant.
(7.) Basic Firearms Safety Course Completion Certificate. Certificates of completion shall be provided by the certified BFS instructor to the student upon successful completion of a BFS course, approved as set forth in 515 CMR 3.05. All such certificates shall be in a form prescribed by the Colonel and shall contain the following information:
(a) Course title and the fact the course was approved in accordance with 515 CMR 3.05;
(b) Purpose for which course was offered, i.e. "Valid for FID Card" or "Valid for LTC" (Courses valid for LTC are also valid for FID Cards);
(c) Name and date of birth of the student;
(d) Date of course completion; and
(e.) Certified BFS instructor's typed or printed name, signature, and BFS Instructor Certification number.

 

[GSG]

Does the MSP (to get the safety certificate) accept any FLETC training for satisfying the basic safety course requirement?

There's no exemption to this for Feds, but look at it this way. As a FLEO you only have to pay $25 for your LTC every 6 years instead of $100. So the money you'd spend on a safety course will just make you feel like you're paying the same LTC fee as everyone else, with cheaper renewals. There's two big benefits to you taking the class though. One, if you're called to testify in state court re: a gun issue, you can credibly state that you were trained in the local firearms laws. That can be important in establishing PC on a rare occasion. Two, if you take a quality course, you'll get a refresher in safe handling skills, and you'll learn a little about the whacky Mass. gun laws. I guarantee you don't know all of them, so if you go in with an open mind, you can walk out and avoid jail time. It's well worth what you pay to attend in both time and money.

Some of the guys in my agency got a pass on the safety course, but I guess it depends on the town.

Along the lines of what Rob said, it's certainly possible that there's PD's who unknowingly break the law in this regard.

I know the safety course certificate is certainly a requirement, but this section in the law gives some hope:

If firearms had souls, MGL is the hell they'd find themselves in, with Dante's appropriate banner:

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here

Joking aside, 515 CMR 3.05(6) is what follows what you quoted (subsection 5), and it appears that the intent wasn't to make it a case-by-case basis.

(5.) Courses Not Listed in 515 CMR 3.05(3) and (4). Additional courses will be approved on an individual basis at the discretion of the Colonel pursuant to 515 CMR 3.05(6).
(6.) Issuance of Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Approval Certification. For courses not listed in this section, a BFS course curriculum approval application can be obtained by writing to the Department of State Police, Licensing Unit, 470 Worcester Road, Framingham, MA 01702. The application can be mailed or delivered to the same address. A letter approving the course or denying approval because the course does not meet the curriculum requirements will be mailed to the applicant.

But who knows, you could get lucky.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

One of the reasons for the list of courses and 'certified' instructors is that they require that information pertaining to possession, transportation, and storage be presented. If you take the right course from the right instructor, this will be worth the time and money.

Besides, even as a FLEO you don't get a pass on much besides licensing. You could still get screwed by storage, AWB, etc.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There's no exemption to this for Feds, but look at it this way. As a FLEO you only have to pay $25 for your LTC every 6 years instead of $100.

Even this depends on the department! Some chiefs look for reasons NOT to give the LE discount, even to Feds and whatever they say goes . . . in spite of what the law says.

One of the reasons for the list of courses and 'certified' instructors is that they require that information pertaining to possession, transportation, and storage be presented. If you take the right course from the right instructor, this will be worth the time and money.

Besides, even as a FLEO you don't get a pass on much besides licensing. You could still get screwed by storage, AWB, etc.

Sadly very few instructors really know the law well enough to teach it competently. I've seen and heard so much mis-information (mostly out of ignorance) given out by instructors that it motivated me to put together my MA Gun Laws Seminar for "normal folks".

On the second part, you are absolutely correct . . . there are no exemptions for LEOs wrt storage, AWB (especially with the latest weird interpretations by EOPS), etc.

Good luck to the OP!

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Either I am missing some joke or no, its 1811. It's class of federal job. It's a federal le agent designator.

You missed the joke, start from the beginning.

 

[BaldAssCat]

You don’t have to take the $100 / 8 hour commercial course from one of the schools. Call your local PD and ask if they or another nearby PD offers the course. I took mine at the Templeton PD and my wife took hers at Westminster PD. Both were $35 and were 4 hours long on a week night. Not sure where you live but if I found 2 within a few miles of my house I’m guessing it shouldn’t be too hard to find one near you.

 

[jsmitho219]

Thanks for all the input, folks. It sounds like a review (and introduction, in some cases) of the MGL and other MA policies is not such a bad idea, anyway. I'll definitely look into taking one of the "shorter" courses with one of the local PDs/other entities. I look forward to participating more on this site. There seem to be a lot of knowledgable people on here, which is something you don't often find on most message boards!

Thanks & stay safe.

 

[GSG]

Westminster PD

They teach BFS courses there now? Good to know.

There seem to be a lot of knowledgable people on here, which is something you don't often find on most message boards!

Hang around awhile, you'll find something to vehemently disagree with us idiots on.

 

[AntiHippie]

Thanks for all the input, folks. It sounds like a review (and introduction, in some cases) of the MGL and other MA policies is not such a bad idea, anyway. I'll definitely look into taking one of the "shorter" courses with one of the local PDs/other entities. I look forward to participating more on this site. There seem to be a lot of knowledgable people on here, which is something you don't often find on most message boards!

Thanks & stay safe.

Probably the best way to go. The skinny on PD's 'giving a pass' on the BFS certificate is not so much so - it's that some PD's (very few municipal agencies will do this for anyone catching the eagle turd, but there are some - at least there were 10 years ago) have 'friendly' BFS instructors who will pencil whip it for you, so they can check the boxes, you can check the boxes, you don't have to spend a day learning which end the speeding chunk of metal comes out of and what wonders the NRA does for duck hunters in central Montana, and everyone is happy.

 

[atilla]

happened to come across this thread, my fiancee just finished training and has a certificate from a FLETC and we were going to call the local PD to see if this would satisfy the requirements for a LTC and it appears that it is not the case. it can't hurt to call of course but now i have an idea of how the conversation will go even if we're in a green town.

this is too good right here...

you don't have to spend a day learning which end the speeding chunk of metal comes out of and what wonders the NRA does for duck hunters in central Montana

years ago that's about how my course went. i just sat there trying to stay awake while sucking down cups of free coffee. my fiancee went over the training she received with me and actually had me practice what she did and not only did i have a blast i really learned something, too.

i want to say i am surprised that MA doesn't honor training that is light years ahead of a NRA course but hey, it's MA.

 

[M1911]

i want to say i am surprised that MA doesn't honor training that is light years ahead of a NRA course but hey, it's MA.

These are the classes that MA accepts for an LTC:

LTC Basic Firearms Safety Courses Certification
Number
MA Chiefs of Police Association Basic Handgun Safety Course LTC-001
NRA Basic Pistol Course LTC-002
NRA Personal Protection Course LTC-003
SIG Arms Academy Handgun Orientation Course LTC-004
Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts Carry Permit Course LTC-005
MCJTC Recruit Firearms Training Course LTC-006
*NRA Home Safety Course LTC-007
Worcester Police Department: Firearms Responsibility and Safety Program LTC-008
MA Sheriff’s Association Firearms Safety and Handling Course LTC-009
BFSI Handgun Safety Course LTC-010
MA State Police Recruit Firearms Training Program LTC-011
SIG Arms Concealed Carry Pistol Course LTC-012
USPSA Safe Handgun Competitor-MA Edition Firearms Course LTC-013
CQB Arms LTC Course LTC-014
Andover Police Department: Basic Firearms Safety Course LTC-015
MagPro Basic Firearms Safety Course LTC-016
MA Certified Basic Pistol Course LTC-017
CCW Point Blank Course LTC-018
Liberal Gun Club LTC-019
MA Pistol License Course LTC-020

 

[atilla]

thanks for the full list, looks like we're looking to find her one of those courses.

 

[Len-2A Training]

i want to say i am surprised that MA doesn't honor training that is light years ahead of a NRA course but hey, it's MA.

MCOPA and those that wrote the laws have NO LOVE for Feds, none at all.

In fact, Feds can NOT be qualified by a MA SP LEOSA Certified Instructor! The Regs were written SPECIFICALLY to forbid this, as well as any other ancillary LEOs out there. If you ain't a FT Municipal PO or MSP, you ain't shit in their eyes. Both myself and a retired BATFE Agent argued fruitlessly at the EOPS hearing on the CMR and the GCAB meeting that occurred right after that.

thanks for the full list, looks like we're looking to find her one of those courses.

Check out RKBA Personal Safety Training here (paid sponsor). Go to the link at the bottom of my sig line and then ping Jeff. I'm certain something can be worked out.

 

[atilla]

we signed her up at MFS, i'm going to go as a guest because their course actually sounded kind of fun, the live-fire part anyway.

 

[Len-2A Training]

we signed her up at MFS, i'm going to go as a guest because their course actually sounded kind of fun, the live-fire part anyway.

Umm . . . there is no live fire, at least not in the classroom in Framingham. MFS uses simulators and they are indeed a good educational tool, but it is not live-fire.

 

[Mass Firearms]

We offer a "5th" hour to the class that is a one on one live fire session for $30.

 

[atilla]

what's up, MFS! i'm going to be there as well as my fiancee's guest.

we probably won't go for the live-fire since we're doing the PM class, with the FLETC stuff fresh in both of our minds the class is interesting for us, it's too bad that it's not fully live-fire but we do keep forgetting that it's just the MA class and i'd wager that most people there aren't licensed and this is them taking that first step and may have not even shot before.

 

[Mass Firearms]

You should enjoy the class. By the end of the year we should complete construction of our own conventional indoor range (an 11,000sqf facility). This will enable us to expand our class offerings.

 

[GSG]

a certificate from a FLETC

Not all FLETC firearms training is the same. It's much more standardized than the 40 something different state level POST standards, but there's still a bunch of variances there. FAMS & FFDO's go to the same place to qual, but the minimums aren't nearly the same. None of them cover MGL either, which is a big benefit to a BFS course.